Car stress and panic

Hi, have posted on here before about Densil getting stressed out on car journeys - just repeating info - sorry a bit long.
We have tried, zylekene, rescue remedy, adaptil spray and thundershirt and nothing worked.

He has a real panic attack and the only time he travels in a car is when we go away on holiday as we have to send him to a Barking Mad foster carer as he cannot cope in kennels. The lady who picks him up usually has to bring someone else with her because of his actions.

The last time we travelled with him - he is in the boot of the car with a wire barrier between him and us on the back seat. He is whining, panting and at times he was clawing at the car window trying to get out. We have been told that on one occasion he chewed through the rear seatbelt.

I have had a behaviour expert ring me and they couldn't offer any advice, only to cover the cage which isn't practical and I know won't work because wood green animal shelter did that once when they took him back to the shelter (we were fostering him at the time) and he still cried all the time.

In desperation I have now got back to the vet and they have said the only other thing they recommend is ACP which is a mild sedative which they give dog's before going in for ops - so this will make him sleepy in the car. Not really very happy about drugging him up but we have tried everything else, so giving this a try and see how it goes.

Aww I'm sorry to hear your not finding a solution   

Such a shame, I wonder weather he associates you going away with the car trips. Wish I could offer some help   

Please don't use ACP it drugs the body but not the mind, so he will still be panicking internally, but won't be able to show it externally, it's horrific! We used to have to use it on aggressive dogs in kennels to sedate them before putting them to sleep, I absolutely hated giving it and would avoid it at all costs, but we couldn't go against vets order.

No matter how many lotions and potions you try, I think it's always going to come back to desensitisation. Biscuit only ever used to go in the car to go to the vets or back to the dogs home for something and she would shake, drool, pant, whine.. Generally freak out. With a year of desensitisation and bi weekly car trips, positive experiences in the car and lots of encouragement of calm behaviour, she's fine now. I think the only way to solve this is to get access to a car and work with him in it a few times a week.

If you must use a sedstice, I've used diazepam with bis on bonfire night, it took the edge off but she still reacted, just more dozily lol!

It would be a long process, but have you tried putting him in the car for a few seconds at a time, giving a treat and loads of praise ( if he calms for a second) then taking him out of it? You could try doing this daily and slowly build up the time he's in the car.
Eventually he might be happy enough for you to start the engine, then further down the line, move the car a few feet.
Would take a long time, but at least you will have done everything to help him that you can.   

Thanks for your replies but in answer to all above.

he is not stressing because he is leaving us - he has always stressed in the car right from when we first got him 2 yrs ago. In fact he loves his foster family.

We tried desensitising him in the car when we had one and it did not work. We no longer have a car, and I don't have anybody who could help in that respect now.

In that case, I'm not sure what else to suggest. Diazepam may help, but I would never use ACP. I've seen dogs have totally random reaction to it, ranging from losing all control of bladder/bowel/basic functions, to severe aggression, to complete panic and others that it didn't work with at all. Diazepam tends to be tolerated better, though of course talk this through with your vet.

Thanks Rachel, think I might get a second opinion from another vet as not very confident with this one - I have been asking for the last six months if there is anything else I can use and they keep ringing me up and asking if I have tried DAP, so just been going round in circles. 3 months ago he said he would try and see if there was anything else and I have still had to ring twice in the last 2 weeks to ask if he has found anything!

That's awful it sounds like the usual tried and tested methods wouldn't work with the severity of his panics in the car, so medication may well be your answer, especially as car trips aren't a common occurance. Hope you manage to get something sorted soon x

I would also suggest a second opinion from a different vet. May be worth asking around at any local dog training professionals near you, or have a word around your local park to other dog owners.

Vet has rung me back, or rather the girl on the desk. The ACP can take anything between 2 and 6 hours to kick in so that will be no good anyway as they usually pick him up around 9.30am, I asked about the diazepam and they said it can cause liver problems so prefer to give the ACP. So I have decided will just have to give up now, just limits our ability to go away.

I don't entirely understand their mentality, in large doses and over a long amount of time I'm sure Diaz could cause liver problems, but so would any meds taken frequently? In my experience we would give the ACP an hour before the deed would be done, but they'd usually be slumped in their own urine and vomit within an hour. Nasty drug, but very cheap!

Don't give up, get a second opinion of another vet if you're not happy, the receptionist won't have any veterinary training!

Thanks Rachel, have now made an appointment with another vet after explaining the situation on the phone - they seem happy to prescribe after first seeing Densil.  Just have to pray it isn't raining now as it is a half hour walk and he will not go outside if he even smells it in the air, lol

Problem is he doesn't like cars etc at all -, he has started reacting to large noisy vehicles on his walks again. If a large noisy vehicle like a jcb or tractor goes by he will jump up and bark at it and then every car that passes after that. I have to get him to look at me and give him a treat in order to stop it, but if that doesn't work the only answer is to get him home as quick as possible. Problem is we have a lot of house building going on where we live and lots of works vehicles doing the rounds. I can only think he has had a bad experience in the past.

See what they say; the reason I prefer Diaz is because it changes the chemical in the brain temporarily which helps the dog the forget the fears and phobias, whereas acp just sedates the body but they still feel the fear. Am by no means an expert however, and no way qualified to prescribe so get with a good vet and see what they say. Hope he agrees to a rainy walk lol!

Perhaps he's noise sensitive, rather than car sensitive? Biscuit used to try to "attack" cars, the watch me command that you're using is great, providing that you get him while he's still on "baseline" if he starts to escalate he will doing the command but still focusing on the noise. And once he's had an incident it will take him 30/60 minute to return to baseline, so any further noises within this time will send him straight back to crisis point, and he will be unable to learn/focus. Biscuit is noise sensitive but not excessively, I use "watch me" for visual triggers and get her doing the command before she sees the trigger/before she begins to physically react to the trigger. Much harder with sound though as he probably would have heard it a long time before you. I could only suggest taking him off onto a side road/walking away from the noise and doing a watch me while you're walking, it's just operant conditioning really, teaching him that good things come when loud noises do. I've found mackerel loaf treats to be the best distraction so far, there's a recipe in the dogs kitchen section! Very strong smelling and cheap to make.

maybe something like these would help

http://www.petexpertise.com/dog-safety/mutt-muffs-hearing-protection-for-dogs.html

http://www.earplugstore.com/mumufordo.html

you might be able to make some using the basic idea
of deadening the higher sound frequencies

i know with 'Lady' the initial fear about car travel were the noises
( my solution was to take her out daily in the car with 'doggy-playtime' being the destination
( after a few weeks it paid off
( she's gone from total-panic to jumping into the car without any prompting

Hi RAchel, can't find the dog kitchen section on here, can you tell me where it is please?

Rachel33 wrote:See what they say; the reason I prefer Diaz is because it changes the chemical in the brain temporarily which helps the dog the forget the fears and phobias, whereas acp just sedates the body but they still feel the fear. Am by no means an expert however, and no way qualified to prescribe so get with a good vet and see what they say. Hope he agrees to a rainy walk lol!

Perhaps he's noise sensitive, rather than car sensitive? Biscuit used to try to "attack" cars, the watch me command that you're using is great, providing that you get him while he's still on "baseline" if he starts to escalate he will doing the command but still focusing on the noise. And once he's had an incident it will take him 30/60 minute to return to baseline, so any further noises within this time will send him straight back to crisis point, and he will be unable to learn/focus. Biscuit is noise sensitive but not excessively, I use "watch me" for visual triggers and get her doing the command before she sees the trigger/before she begins to physically react to the trigger. Much harder with sound though as he probably would have heard it a long time before you. I could only suggest taking him off onto a side road/walking away from the noise and doing a watch me while you're walking, it's just operant conditioning really, teaching him that good things come when loud noises do. I've found mackerel loaf treats to be the best distraction so far, there's a recipe in the dogs kitchen section! Very strong smelling and cheap to make.

It's under the Diet & Nutrition section:

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/f29-staffordshire-bull-terrier-diet-nutrition

Thanks Kathy, for some reason I wasn't seeing the whole list of topics in the forum, but found it now

Well got the second vets opinion yesterday and he thinks acp will be better. He said what I was told about it taking 2 to 6 hrs to kick in was rubbish and it normally takes an hour. He said it was a better option than the diazepan so going to try it. Will report back on how it goes.

Rachel33 wrote:See what they say; the reason I prefer Diaz is because it changes the chemical in the brain temporarily which helps the dog the forget the fears and phobias, whereas acp just sedates the body but they still feel the fear. Am by no means an expert however, and no way qualified to prescribe so get with a good vet and see what they say. Hope he agrees to a rainy walk lol!

Perhaps he's noise sensitive, rather than car sensitive? Biscuit used to try to "attack" cars, the watch me command that you're using is great, providing that you get him while he's still on "baseline" if he starts to escalate he will doing the command but still focusing on the noise. And once he's had an incident it will take him 30/60 minute to return to baseline, so any further noises within this time will send him straight back to crisis point, and he will be unable to learn/focus. Biscuit is noise sensitive but not excessively, I use "watch me" for visual triggers and get her doing the command before she sees the trigger/before she begins to physically react to the trigger. Much harder with sound though as he probably would have heard it a long time before you. I could only suggest taking him off onto a side road/walking away from the noise and doing a watch me while you're walking, it's just operant conditioning really, teaching him that good things come when loud noises do. I've found mackerel loaf treats to be the best distraction so far, there's a recipe in the dogs kitchen section! Very strong smelling and cheap to make.

What is he like if he is sitting with someone else in the car, even for a few minutes?

I mean, on someone's lap - or next to a human.

Treats in car?

Or play find the treat in car when stationary ?

Just a quick update -sorry a bit long. In reply to Rupertsbooks - we have tried everything in the car and he will not even look at treats as he is in such a state. We had tried sitting him on back seat with my husband when we had a car and he still stressed out by panting and crying, although perhaps not as bad as being in the boot behind the wire barrier. Obviously the wire barrier is adding to the problem, but as I said the only time he goes in a car is when we go on holiday or away which is 2/3 times a year and the company that collect him usually have one person who is driving the car and collecting him and taking him to the foster family. We are unique and fortunate that this foster family has allowed us to travel with him to their home, and also is foster daddy travels home with him, and this is ok as long as we can do this but more than likely there is going to be a time when we need to leave him with somebody else who will not offer this service.

With regards to the ACP it is a bit inconclusive because there was a mixup with collection and return. I was told to give him the tablet 1hr before travel, but they arrived 1/2 hr early to collect him. He was ok in the car, panting a bit but it was hot, but I don't think the tablet really kicked in until he got there as it was a 45 minute journey. We sat him between us on the back seat and belted in, and only cried a couple of times. Coming back the foster couple made the mistake of thinking he was coming home the next day so he didn't have a tablet at all, and again he sat with him on the back seat and said he wasn't too bad. So I think we will continue to give him 1 tablet and sit him on the back seat for now in the hope that he gets used to travelling in the car this way, although eventually we need him to get used to travelling in the back behind the guard. I am thinking about getting a household cage and putting some bedding in there and leaving the door open to see if he will use that and get used to it.

Good idea with the crate Ledger has one in the house that he can wander in and out of as needed

He too got quite car stressed refused to get into one of my cars, so I swapped with my dad as he would get in there but it became the same so I think more separation based. In this new car (fiesta) I originally just had a guard but if I got out of the car (at agility shows where I need to walk the course without him) he would find a way to dismantle it and get into the front seats!

I have now got a Barjo cage custom made for the car and he hops in no problems every time before he would regularly dig his heels in and back away from the boot. He obviously knows he can't get out so doesn't seem to try but also I used to make it all cosy in the back but suddenly wondered if all the cushioning made him more unsteady when he stood up so now he just has an old piece of carpet lining the crate and two old pillows it certainly seems to be working for now.