Inbreeding Coefficient? Have you ever checked your dog?

I just had a gander, after reading Steves topic on why Crufts should be banned. My little Devil- Nitro is 20% inbred. The same as the Crufts winner Crossguns Memphis Belle.

I'm not sure if that's really a problem, or not. He's healthy, had all his checks. Ok, he's a little nuts, but aren't they all?

I'm not really wanting a heated debate, I just wondered if anyone else has checked. If not or so, what is the outcome? Would be interesting to know.

Sarah.

Here's the link btw- If you'd like to join in the discussion and post your results. Of course, you can join in anyway if you wish not to.

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/inbreed/Default.aspx?breed=3080

Unfortunately yes, I have checked mine and neither Bandit (my staff) or Dempsey (my EBT) had/have low COIs

If I had known then what I know now I might have made a different choice.

Caryll wrote:Unfortunately yes, I have checked mine and neither Bandit (my staff) or Dempsey (my EBT) had/have low COIs

If I had known then what I know now I might have made a different choice.

I don't know if I would of, or not. It's so hard to say. I love Nitro, so it's hard to think I wouldn't of wanted him. Even Cross breeds come with their fair share of problems.

I just did a little research, and the accepted percentage has to be below 25%. Also, without inbreeding we wouldn't have some of the beautiful dogs out there that we do today. I'm no expert tho... And don't claim to know what the risks are. I will be studying this further however.

All I know is that his parents had excellent temperaments. And apart from the growling issue with Nitro, which isn't a huge worry as he's only 7 weeks 5 days old- He's a real sweetie.

No, no! The acceptable percentage should be below the breed average! In the case of a Stafford we're talking about less than 7%.

Caryll wrote:No, no! The acceptable percentage should be below the breed average! In the case of a Stafford we're talking about less than 7%.

OH!! I didn't realise that. Then yes, it's very high .

His Mums was 19%
Dads 20%

Gosh, didn't have a clue.

I just read this...

"What does this value mean?
Inbreeding is defined as the mating of related individuals, whether they are closely related or more distantly related. The inbreeding coefficient of an individual is the probability that two copies of the same gene have been inherited from a common founder, that is an ancestor shared by both parents. The lower the inbreeding coefficient, the lower the probability (risk) that this will happen.
An inbreeding coefficient of 12.5% means that there is a 1 in 8 chance that a dog will inherit the same version of gene from the same dog that appears in both the sire’s and dam’s pedigree. The puppies born to a mother/son, father/daughter or brother/sister mating (which the Kennel Club will no longer accept for registration), would be at least 25%. The inbreeding coefficient of puppies born from a grandfather/granddaughter mating would be at least 12.5%."

Yeah, 20% is much higher than the average but he's an adorable little puppy, all you can do is hope he remains healthy, but we all hope that regardless . Loki isn't registered and he's a cross, so he doesn't have one.

Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

Tara wrote:Yeah, 20% is much higher than the average but he's an adorable little puppy, all you can do is hope he remains healthy, but we all hope that regardless . Loki isn't registered and he's a cross, so he doesn't have one.

Well I will keep everything crossed. His Mum & Dad are very healthy. So hopefully there is a good chance.

Caryll wrote:Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

I didn't know, tbh. But, I'm going to just keep loving him. I wouldn't change him for the world.

Sera wrote:

Caryll wrote:Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

I didn't know, tbh. But, I'm going to just keep loving him. I wouldn't change him for the world.

Of course you wouldn't!

Caryll wrote:

Sera wrote:

Caryll wrote:Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

I didn't know, tbh. But, I'm going to just keep loving him. I wouldn't change him for the world.

Of course you wouldn't!

If i were to get a ped dog then yes i'd check, but harv isn't registered and chance is a rescue and so they don't have one as such

can't check Tilly as she was unpapered from a BYB but then I came here learned a few things and got Tommy all registered and 1.8%

Dave wrote:can't check Tilly as she was unpapered from a BYB but then I came here learned a few things and got Tommy all registered and 1.8%

Same for me re- darcy , no papers. But if I ever was to get another, after what ive learnt here, then I'd do as Dave ^^^ has done and get a puppy with a low COI.

Dave wrote:can't check Tilly as she was unpapered from a BYB but then I came here learned a few things and got Tommy all registered and 1.8%

I would check next time too.

I have never thought about checking. Does anyone know how to do this in Aus?

Caryll wrote:Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

not just inherited problems, everyone knows what problems come with inbreeding!!

just a few things i can think of

• Much lower immune system
  
• More prone to cancers
  
• Hip dysplasia
  
• Significantly less intelligent
  
• Sometimes much more aggressive

Otis has a COI of 4%, So lower than the breed average. I was fortunate here I guess as at the time I didn't know anything about COI, but if I was to consider another I would definitely check this number out.

I am sure Nitro will be a wonderful dog as he grows too

There are a lot of risks with inbreeding, but sadly the calculations to determine how inbred a dog is aren't widely known through the public, so people don't think to check.

Chances are your dog is perfectly health, thankfully. It's a shame that some others aren't so lucky.

kc wrote:I have never thought about checking. Does anyone know how to do this in Aus?

Hi Casey

Took me a while but have finally found it

'Breedmate' is the name of the program - our breeders did it for us. I haven't tried myself, but I have been told that you can also do it yourself if you go to the website (you need to make a free account I believe). Let me know how you get on with it

My girl is under the average, which i was very happy to find out.

Eleanor wrote:There are a lot of risks with inbreeding, but sadly the calculations to determine how inbred a dog is aren't widely known through the public, so people don't think to check.

Chances are your dog is perfectly health, thankfully. It's a shame that some others aren't so lucky.

If I remember correctly the COI check wasn't known on here at the time I was looking for Tommy last year but we were actively looking through the family tree at relations and no of times certain names appeared on the ped. and Tommy was just a pup from a litter with good looking parents with not a lot of red on there so a really good prospect for a family pet , so same thing just the COI check puts an actual figure to it. So we avoided inbreeding but didn't put a COI figure to it until after I got Tommy

I had no idea you could check until I read the Crufts thread either. Mia is 6% which was good to know considering we got her from a "backyard breeder".

I had checked the breed history document before we got her and there didn't seem to be any similar names in there. That was the extent to which I thought you could check!

Baileys not registered so can't check his and Sierra is 5.4% IIRC!

Skye is only 4% which is great but didn't really know about the co at the time she was the right dog at the right time

Busters co is a very high 23% but was more interested in getting him out of the situation he was in so didn't check but knew he came with his kc reg

Caryll wrote:Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

surely also there is a higher chance of inheriting good traits and wanted characteristics from ancestors? which is why when a dog is bread by someone who knows what they are doing and breeding from the best stock then a coi higher than the breed average isnt a bad thing? archies is 14% BTW.

archielaws wrote:

Caryll wrote:Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

surely also there is a higher chance of inheriting good traits and wanted characteristics from ancestors? which is why when a dog is bread by someone who knows what they are doing and breeding from the best stock then a coi higher than the breed average isnt a bad thing? archies is 14% BTW.

any type of inbreding is wrong that why top vets want it all to be banned only people who thinks it's ok are the one who do it.

Kell wrote:

kc wrote:I have never thought about checking. Does anyone know how to do this in Aus?

Hi Casey

Took me a while but have finally found it

'Breedmate' is the name of the program - our breeders did it for us. I haven't tried myself, but I have been told that you can also do it yourself if you go to the website (you need to make a free account I believe). Let me know how you get on with it

Thanks Kell, i am about to try now

Steve wrote:

archielaws wrote:

Caryll wrote:Just because his COI is high doesn't mean he's definitely going to be unhealthy! What it does mean is that there's a higher chance of inherited problems.

It's really something for breeders to be looking at in order to bring down the inbreeding percentage, although it's useful when you're looking to buy a pup (if you know to look for it, of course!).

surely also there is a higher chance of inheriting good traits and wanted characteristics from ancestors? which is why when a dog is bread by someone who knows what they are doing and breeding from the best stock then a coi higher than the breed average isnt a bad thing? archies is 14% BTW.

any type of inbreding is wrong that why top vets want it all to be banned only people who thinks it's ok are the one who do it.

It's a possibility that my boy is the way he is due to 1. His inbreeding 2. His background before I rescued him
Skye is perfect if a little tall so would not be highly ranked for showing, buster is perfect size etc for showing but does seem a little neurotic. If I was to look at getting another (impossible with how buster is) I would check that their coi is low as I feel it does have something to do with his personality

Tali - 3%
Kali Mist - 2%
Skibadee - 2%

Hindsight is a beautiful thing. If we found this website before we got Brutus, there may have been a chance we wouldn't have got him due to now finding out his inbreeding COI is 14%. We took the breeders word and they seemed to take great care of their dogs which is what sold it for us. I was quite shocked when I found out he is 14% and feel slightly gullible that we potentially fell for the story of sale. But I agree with the comments on here that are anti inbreeding. It's something that is inexcusable and I would happily pay more money for a dog with a lower COI to ensure that such practices of careful breeding are maintained.

By the way, there is no chance we would swap Brutus. Whilst he is 14%, and I am shocked at that, he is a cracking dog and definitely part of our family.

brutusindubai wrote:Hindsight is a beautiful thing. If we found this website before we got Brutus, there may have been a chance we wouldn't have got him due to now finding out his inbreeding COI is 14%. We took the breeders word and they seemed to take great care of their dogs which is what sold it for us. I was quite shocked when I found out he is 14% and feel slightly gullible that we potentially fell for the story of sale. But I agree with the comments on here that are anti inbreeding. It's something that is inexcusable and I would happily pay more money for a dog with a lower COI to ensure that such practices of careful breeding are maintained.

By the way, there is no chance we would swap Brutus. Whilst he is 14%, and I am shocked at that, he is a cracking dog and definitely part of our family.

dont worry mate you havnt been sold a sales line etc. there is nothing wrong with your dog at all. my archie is 14% also and i can guarantee you he was bread by someone who both knows what they are doing and has the dogs well being at the heart of their breeding programme.

archielaws wrote:
dont worry mate you havnt been sold a sales line etc. there is nothing wrong with your dog at all. my archie is 14% also and i can guarantee you he was bread by someone who both knows what they are doing and has the dogs well being at the heart of their breeding programme.

But is totally ignoring the health problems caused by inbreeding. All too common, I'm afraid.

My girl was sold to me in 5mins. I saw her mum, saw her siblings, and i wanted her sister cause she was brindle and white, but i took lexi cause she was the "unshowable one" i never wanted to show so it didnt matter to me, i thought i would leave that to the others.


Hindisght, i was a very gullible buyer, i could have been buying anything. I got VERY lucky, her parents were not tested but they had a very very low COI (lexi is only just over 1%)

her personality though is not perfect. her sister is the same. quite dog agro.

Caryll wrote:

archielaws wrote:
dont worry mate you havnt been sold a sales line etc. there is nothing wrong with your dog at all. my archie is 14% also and i can guarantee you he was bread by someone who both knows what they are doing and has the dogs well being at the heart of their breeding programme.

But is totally ignoring the health problems caused by inbreeding. All too common, I'm afraid.

if throughout the dogs line they are all health tested, healthy, of sound temprement, possessing desired traits etc then what health problems are the ignoring? I agree that in breeding dogs willy - nilly without knowledge of what you are doing is cruel and wrong. but on the other hand you surely understand that LINE - breeding done by someone who knows exactly what they are doing is a different matter all together.

archielaws wrote:

Caryll wrote:

archielaws wrote:
dont worry mate you havnt been sold a sales line etc. there is nothing wrong with your dog at all. my archie is 14% also and i can guarantee you he was bread by someone who both knows what they are doing and has the dogs well being at the heart of their breeding programme.

But is totally ignoring the health problems caused by inbreeding. All too common, I'm afraid.

if throughout the dogs line they are all health tested, healthy, of sound temprement, possessing desired traits etc then what health problems are the ignoring? I agree that in breeding dogs willy - nilly without knowledge of what you are doing is cruel and wrong. but on the other hand you surely understand that LINE - breeding done by someone who knows exactly what they are doing is a different matter all together.

come on let not be blind to the the basic problem that come with inbreeding there plenty of things you cant test for

just a small list that i can think of at the moment but if you ask a vet they could triple it or more!!

• Much lower immune system
  
• More prone to cancers
  
• Significantly less intelligent
  
• Sometimes much more aggressive

come on let not be blind to the the basic problem that come with inbreeding there plenty of things you cant test for

just a small list that i can think of at the moment but if you ask a vet they could triple it or more!!

• Much lower immune system
  
• More prone to cancers
  
• Significantly less intelligent
  
• Sometimes much more aggressive

I couldnt disagree with you but all I ask is where do we draw the line between line breeding and in breeding?

Can this be done in ireland, i hadnt a clue people would inbreed dogs so the tought never crossed my mind, now i want 2know.

archielaws wrote:

come on let not be blind to the the basic problem that come with inbreeding there plenty of things you cant test for

just a small list that i can think of at the moment but if you ask a vet they could triple it or more!!

• Much lower immune system
  
• More prone to cancers
  
• Significantly less intelligent
  
• Sometimes much more aggressive

I couldnt disagree with you but all I ask is where do we draw the line between line breeding and in breeding?

me i would ban it all i want a healthy pet that live as long at possible and you only get a pet like that with well breed dog

Well I was shocked that Vinnie was 13% but in hindsight I hadnt a clue about all this before I got him just a lay person I am afraid. Had I a known I would have gone into it in more detail.