questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog

by nishma Sun Jan 27 2013, 21:35

First topic message reminder :

hello everybody
I'm attaching here a picture of my dog, this is Georgia , she's a mixed...something. we're not sure exactly what
questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 537209_10151612560470828_698279542_n

questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 537209_10151612560470828_698279542_n

my name is Adam, I'm not from the UK at all but planing on moving to the UK soon. after checking and mailing and talking to all authorities i was told simply not to even try bringing my dog as it sounds them like a banned type of dog. they did not agree to see a picture and give advice.

I don't want any trouble with the law or to do anything against the law, but naturally i don't want to leave my dog. i was very glad to find this forum as i see pictures of similar dogs, young ones, and i understand they are legal. so now I'm confused, and hopeful..
just by seeing this picture, would you say this is an illegal dog or could i bring her in with me?
do any of you know anything about the process of entering the UK with a dog? (coming in by airplane) will/should someone look at the dog, will they care for her look..? and any other information you could provide will help.. before I'm forced to cancel my moving plans...

thank you all!
-Adam

by Billybunter Mon Jan 28 2013, 16:42

The ban laws suck and this is why What i don't understand how they can ban Fila Braziliero which is basically a mastiff like any other but just brazil breed nothing about it makes sence

by **DragonTheStaffie** Mon Jan 28 2013, 16:49

''The four breeds covered under the Dangerous Dogs Act of 1991 are pit bull terriers, Dogo Argentinos, Fila Brasileiro, and Japanese Tosas. Why has the Fila Brasileiro been included in this list? It is a dog that has been bred to guard and herd livestock, so wouldn't it be a protective guard dog? Yes and no. The Fila Brasileiro is the most aggressive of the guard dogs, being completely open with its aggressiveness towards strangers. That's one reason it has been banned. The other, sadly, is that this breed is also used in illegal dog fighting activities.''

If you want to read more about why that breed is banned go here: http://www.terrificpets.com/articles/10296565.asp

by Guest Mon Jan 28 2013, 16:51

Panda wrote:Hi Adam
It's a bit devious but could you bring her to Eire first, then up to the North and then over to England? Is this possible? Are the laws of entry different in Eire?
Mazel Tov

I don't recommend this. The laws in Ireland are mich tighter than UK, staffies and several other bully breeds are not allowed in public at all unless licensed and muzzled on a lead.

by **DragonTheStaffie** Mon Jan 28 2013, 17:33

Staffies are not allowed in Ireland? Never knew that.
I seen this documentary on the TV where they have loads of pitbulls in Ireland (which is not legal) and they sell them to people but they give them this passport or whatever it was where it says it's not actually a pitbull in case the people get stopped on the street. Most of them dogs were use for dog fighting.
The dude who use to sell all them pitbulls had a big farm where he use to put the pitbulls on a strong lead (i think) tied to a tree all day and all night.. Sad

by Panda Mon Jan 28 2013, 18:02

Hi Hayley, can you remember some time ago there was an enquiry on this forum from someone who had staffy crosses they lived in Eire and wondered whether they could come to England with their dogs to live, and isn't there someone on another rescue site that rescues dogs from Eire and brings them to England ? Dont know if these are Staffies though.

by nishma Mon Jan 28 2013, 18:41

heya - i'm looking into it, for now i've seen in eire you dogs aren't BANNED but must be muzzled at all times and there are other such restrictions - but in anyway i think in the end i'll come via france / belgium - i say belgium because france also does not all bull types , i need to look better into that as well and see. but the main steps are 1) get eu dog passport saying staffie cross 2) coming in by ferry

by **janey** Mon Jan 28 2013, 18:45

Can't you just put him quarantine? Sorry if already mentioned but wouldn't that be the simplest way?

by nishma Mon Jan 28 2013, 18:48

there's no such option as i understand
the thing with quarantine is for illness to see the dog is all well, my problem is that the dog looks like a pitbull :/
if i'm missing something about quarantine - would love to hear more thanks

by Guest Mon Jan 28 2013, 18:54

Your Georgia looks more like an American Bulldog x Big Grin

by **janey** Mon Jan 28 2013, 19:02

Speak to your local authorities and vets. They will tell you. I know off lots of dogs of all breeds that have been taken abroad when the owners want to relocate. You may be making this harder than you think!

by nishma Mon Jan 28 2013, 19:28

yeah american bulldog is a problem in the uk !! but as everybody here say i'm sure i can get papers saying staffy x and no one on border control should know better (unless they are a vet Tongues

)

by nishma Mon Jan 28 2013, 19:32

oh wait you said bulldog not pitbull - well yeah that could work out as well - i think as i got mixed up so could a border control person, and saying "staff" rather than "bull" might make it easier - but - i will go and ask for a local vet advice about this

by **janey** Mon Jan 28 2013, 19:34

I must say, I think you are risking quite a few things. If you have a reason to relocate here then just go down the correct route. Your dog hasn't got papers to say what he is so is a cross. Its costly and will mean quarantine but surely better than trying to almost smuggle him over!

by nishma Mon Jan 28 2013, 19:38

could you write a little more about quarantine? - do you mean bringing the dog in normally (straight via airplane) and then if they wont let her in they will send her to quarantine? i would be ok with it - but what happnes after the quarantine time? they wont let me get her into the uk.. only outside or they put her to sleep..no? if you have any more info about that i'de love to know

by **janey** Mon Jan 28 2013, 19:45

I've never done it. As far as you have made clear you have a dog, without papers. Its technically a mongrel which isn't banned here.

Quarantine is about 6 months sometimes less. As far as I am aware you have rabies in your country, we do not. It is basically a boarding kennels where the dog will stay until he is deemed fit to be here.

As I said, if your relocating then thats what you do.

by nishma Mon Jan 28 2013, 19:51

ah ok i understand
i have looked into it first thing because i do want to do everything legaly - wouldn't want to start off badly.

first - as far as i checked from israel there's no need for quarantine at all
2nd - the problem is - when coming in via air terminal the dog will see a VET which can decide the dog looks like a pitbull and then not allow entrance - that's the problem i'm thinking about - but actually - now seeing all about the staffies here - maybe she can pass in this simplest way, maybe i should at leastt try it first and see how it goes - money risk if i have to fly back home - but that's ok.

by the way turns out nina once asked defra about american pitbulls - they wrote: " Pit Bull types can be called American Staffordshire Terriers (Am Staffs), Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier (ISBT), Irish Blue or Red Nose. Also some kinds of American Bulldogs have been found to be Pit Bulls."

they sound very very strickt on emails and writings - if in real life they are more..relaxed..than there should be no problem

by **janey** Mon Jan 28 2013, 20:02

Found this on 'Bringing a pet to Israel' some links may help the other way round.

swer - Chosen by Asker
As in all countries, there are limitations to bringing animals into Israel.

Pet dogs, cats, birds, rabbits, and rodents which are not considered wildlife, up to two of each type, accompanied by their owners, are exempt from a Veterinary Import Permit provided that:
A Veterinary Health Certificate, issued by a government veterinary officer in the country of origin within 7 days prior to export is attached, stating that the animals were examined, found healthy, free from infectious and contagious diseases, and that a declaration has been received from the owner stating that the animals have been in his/her possession for at least the last 90 days.
An international certificate of vaccination stating that the dogs or cats have been vaccinated against rabies, not more than a year and not less than a month prior to shipment to Israel* (* except from Oceania, Great Britain and Cyprus, such dogs have to be vaccinated against rabies within 5 days after arrival).
Dogs and cats, younger than 3 months will not be admitted. Following details of every import of animals must be notifies to the Ramla Quarantine Station at least 48 hours prior to arrival to Israel: owner, animal species, age, flight number and approximate time of arrival. Animals arriving in good health and properly certified will generally not be quarantined.
Dogs, cats, birds, rabbits and rodents more than two of each, or such animals arriving unaccompanied by their owners and other animal species arriving with or without their owners, require a Veterinary Import Permit, issued by the Director of Veterinary Services. A written application for such a permit is to be presented with a payable cheque for the fees, by a person living in Israel, not less than 10 days before the planned date of departure of the animals.

The application shall include:

Animal species;
Sex;
Breed;
Age;
Date of expected arrival in Israel;
Country of origin;
Other details.
These documents should then be sent to:

The Director of Veterinary Services or Ramla Quarantine Station (address below).

The permit, if granted, will include all needed veterinary conditions and requirements pertaining to the referred animal.

The introduction of wild animals or animals whose usual habitat is not amongst human beings, regardless to their origins requires furthermore a written permission in advance from the Nature Reserves Authority, Jerusalem (Tel: 02-5005463; Fax: 02-5005459).
The importation of monkeys to Israel is generally prohibited.
Importation of horses – An application for the importation of horses shall be made not less than 60 days before their planned departure, to anable the completion of required tests and attestations to be made abroad.
Quarantine
Unaccompanied animals, or such which require an import permit, shall be quarantined in an official quarantine station for a period of 8 days or as decided upon by the Director.

Warning
Animals arriving in Israel without the above mentioned documents will be returned to the countries of origin at the owner's expense, or destroyed, as stated by law.

For more information, please contact:

The Director of Veterinary Services
Import-Export Officer,
P.O. Box 12,
Beit Dagan 50250,
Israel

Ramla Quarantine Station
P.O. Box 63,
Ramla,
Israel
Fax: (972-3) 968-8963/ 960-5194
http://www.israel.alloexpat.com/israel_i…

Two more
http://www.goisrael.com/Tourism_Eng/Tour…
http://www.hagshama.org.il/en/resources/…

BTW
Returning to England is where your real truble will start

If you want to bring your pet with you from abroad, you need to be aware its import will be subject to Britain’s tough quarantine regulations. However, the recent innovation of passports for pets means that pet-lovers can avoid long periods of quarantine.

The UK has a Pet Passport Scheme, in which dogs, cats and ferrets from specific countries are allowed to enter without quarantine, provided they meet specified anti-rabies, blood sampling and anti-worm/anti-tick hygiene requirements. The pet must be micro-chipped, vaccinated against rabies and blood tested. They can be brought into the UK only after six months have elapsed after a satisfactory blood test. Three airlines (British Midland, Finnair and Lufthansa) and a number of ferry lines, are currently authorised to bring non-quarantined animals into the UK.

Countries that have signed up to the Pet Travel Scheme include:

All EU countries (and associated territories), Andorra, Antigua & Barbuda, Aruba, Ascension Island, Australia, Bahrain, Barbados, Bermuda, Canada, Cayman Islands, Chile, Croatia, Falkland Islands, Fiji, French Polynesia, Grenadines, Hawaii, Hong Kong, Iceland, Jamaica, Japan, Liechtenstein, Mauritius, Mayotte, Monaco, Montserrat, Netherlands Antilles, New Caledonia, New Zealand, Norway, Russia, St Helena, St Kitts & Nevis, St Pierre & Miquelon, St Vincent, San Marino, Singapore, Switzerland, Taiwan, United Arab Emirates, USA (mainland), Vanuatu, Vatican, Wallis & Futuna.
http://www.england.alloexpat.com/england…

3 years ago

As for the breed, I can't say yes or no, personally think it would be fine done by the right channels.

by nishma Mon Jan 28 2013, 20:50

thanks - first thing i check was about the need for quarantine and israel has just recently joined the list who does not require quarantine so that's cool

now i've emailed someone trying to find out worst case if i bring her in the proper way and they say "no" what happens then - if it's only a matter of flying back - then i think it's really the best thing to try first of all

by **Nathan** Mon Jan 28 2013, 21:31

Tbh might/might not be classed as a type. Download the defra guidlines on type and compare them up to your dog in the flesh with real measurments. Have seen dogs exempted that fit the type more than i can make out in your pics.
Unlikley to be just stopped in the street unless you live in certain areas of the uk mainly city areas with existing problems with people breeding dogs to be type. I have a guy on the force that tells me they dont bother and leave it to local council wardens to police the legislation in the initial stages and most of them are dog lovers and have some common scense. They know what dog is dangerouse and what isnt and will generally leave most people and dogs alone if they arnt a nusiance.
To be sure i would contact ddawatch who will give you a cast iron verdict on your dog. I can only post by my limited experiance but these guys along whith whealdon law know there stuff inside out. Best of luck and i hope you and your dog have a very happy life together here

by Guest Mon Jan 28 2013, 22:09

DragonTheStaffie wrote: Staffies are not allowed in Ireland? Never knew that.
I seen this documentary on the TV where they have loads of pitbulls in Ireland (which is not legal) and they sell them to people but they give them this passport or whatever it was where it says it's not actually a pitbull in case the people get stopped on the street. Most of them dogs were use for dog fighting.
The dude who use to sell all them pitbulls had a big farm where he use to put the pitbulls on a strong lead (i think) tied to a tree all day and all night..

They're not banned, they just have to be muzzled and on a leash at all times.

by harlou Tue Jan 29 2013, 16:20

She doesnt look like an amstaff there are lots in france my neighbour has one ,a lot of people go on about pitbulls and amstaffs but have never seen one, she looks more Lab staffy cross to me, seen a few of them in the north east ,people look at the person first in this country then the dog so if you look? i wont say any more

by Guest Tue Jan 29 2013, 16:25

Try contact these people - they might be able to give you the legal side of it all...

http://www.ddawatch.co.uk/

by harlou Tue Jan 29 2013, 16:47

The video on that site is very upsetting two of the dogs looked like my last 2 dogs both staffy crosses i wish the scummy owners could be pts instead ,the last images were really horibble

by nishma Wed Jan 30 2013, 13:15

heya everybody
just to update..

tried messuering my dog as much as i understood - some parts fit PBT but most dont.

talked with the company at the airports who ships pets - and they said - send us some photos and we'll go ask DEFRA what will they do if this dog comes - so i did, and they did.. and they said they'd call the police :/ because it seems of type to them enough not to be sure.. in which case they prefer turning to police - which then takes the dog and well, a mess.

i will try noseing around some more on the DDAWATCH site once they allow me access there, but for as it stands now - it's back to the ferry plan...

by nishma Wed Jan 30 2013, 13:18

attaching the photo i mailed them, with my "messurments" on it..

it's large so here a link to it:

image

questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 Pbt10

questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 Pbt10

by Guest Wed Jan 30 2013, 13:34

The ferry will be less looked at but there is still a chance of her being taken. unless you can get her on the exempted list you you might be better not trying :/

The dog in the photo of the list you posted literaly looks identical to yours so i would be very concerned if i was attempting to move her.

by Mani Wed Jan 30 2013, 13:43

For what it's worth I took the last ferry of the day both ways (23:00) so perhaps that also encouraged the custom official not to bother checking the dog's looks

by nishma Wed Jan 30 2013, 14:30

thanks mani - good idea!
Hayley - better be similar because it is my dog Big Grin

made a mesh up of some photos and the DEFRA's PTB list - but as you said - i'm well aware of the chances of being stopped at a ferry as well this is why i will also check what happnes in such case. i want to always have the option to turn back. i really think she would get on the exampted list - but on the other hand i know it means a long time away and wouldn't want her to suffer + i hear of planty of case of nice cute dogs who dont get on to the list.

by rescuestaffords Wed Jan 30 2013, 15:32

Steve wrote:
Eris wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to have her DNA tested? If you can prove that she is not of a banned breed, then I would think she would be allowed into the country.

there no DNA test

the dog look pitbul "type" to me

There are companys that test for breeds which are present in your dog and that is done by a DNA swab test. It's worth looking into.

by **Nosipho** Wed Jan 30 2013, 16:51

rescuestaffords wrote:
Steve wrote:
Eris wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to have her DNA tested? If you can prove that she is not of a banned breed, then I would think she would be allowed into the country.

there no DNA test

the dog look pitbul "type" to me

There are companys that test for breeds which are present in your dog and that is done by a DNA swab test. It's worth looking into.

Hi rescuestaffords. Apparently these test are not very accurate. Many different breeds can show up since all 'official' breeds were created from others. It is basically useless and will not hold up in court, the only use that these DNA tests would have would be to prove a dog's parentage. I can remember being on a forum (not sure if it was this one or another) years ago and lots of people with mixed breed dogs got the test done and got back results of basically gobledegook. I would be reluctant to use them as they are also quite expensive.

I think if I was in your position I would speak to my vet, get them to write out a letter saying they have known your dog since it was a pup and can confirm it is supposed to be staffy x am bulldog. Get them to write a short description about the dog's appearance and its temperement, then get them to sign and date a photo confirming it is the same dog. Have all of your pet passport, vaccination etc up to date and as Mani's owner says get latest ferry down through France or something. If anyone does say anything you can feign ignorance and tell them what breed your dog is, back it up with the paperwork and cross your fingers. I think personally you will be ok, worst comes to worst you can always go back the way you came! You might be able to put the dog in quarantine but think this is more risky because if she comes by air rather than in a vehicle there will be much more contact with officials. Plus there will be mandatory health and vet checks to certify she is clear to fly etc. If you go by the ferry and just produce documentation and you dog is down in the hold I think they will be less likely to want to go and check it.

by nishma Wed Jan 30 2013, 20:43

Nosipho - yup all you said sounds accurate and smart. i'll get such a letter from my vet that's also a good idea

by Mani Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:03

A month later anybody know what happened to nishma?

by nishma Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:09

still here Smile

i have another 6 months before i move. have some local commitments to finish up with. but for now after everything - the plan is to come via france with ferry, after checking again with airport staff. sounds much safer. also getting help now from french vet with the help of family i have there, and also - working with a trainer to get our dog as relaxed as can be (she likes trying to run after cats.. so working on this) - when the time comes, i'll update here for sure how did everything go. but only at the end of august sometime..

by **johneva** Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:15

Actually looks part American Bull dog to me personally.

Though that breed is not illegal in this country unfortunately due to the nature of the way the law was put in place your dog could at some point be an issue with our authorities.

Unfortunately your dog only has to look like a "Pitbull type" here, meaning all sorts of dogs are getting seized due to fitting into the shapes and sizes they class "pitbull type".

Dumb law I know and I wish they would just get rid of it before anymore dogs have to die and owners put through the heart ache of losing one of their family members.

by nishma Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:19

yes it's a big shame and as you say - it can go either way, depends really on who's looking at the dog and what they decide to do. this is why we choose ferry - the check there is quicker, plus we'll dress her up nice, something pink, to look cute. might help .. Tongues

by Guest Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:20

Hope it all goes well.

Have you got a backup plan though? I'm not sure what would happen if they stop you and say "no" i mean, can you take your dog away again or will they keep him?

by Mani Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:23

If they say 'no' he can't board the ferry, but the dog stays with him since for all intents and purposes it's already in French territory so a UK Border Agency official has no authority over it. He can always try again the next day, though.

by nishma Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:26

exatly.

MANI - as i understand , i first go with the dog to some office to get an ok (or not-ok) to board the dog.. right? then with some paper i get from this office/checkpoint, i go on boarding like every other passanger?

by Mani Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:46

No. Dog is in your car and you drive to the passport control. Border Agency officer checks you and your dog's passport. He might or might not check the dog. In my case, travelling two times on ferry, he only checked the dog's face to confirm it was the same as the photo in the passport. It's all done the same for humans w/ dogs and humans w/out dogs.

by nishma Mon Feb 25 2013, 14:51

cool thanks

by **rebeccaleanne** Mon Feb 25 2013, 15:48

well i wish you all the luck, never had to deal with taking tyke abroad....please keep us updated on the progress

by Guest Mon Feb 25 2013, 17:25

I know i will be sounding all negative questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 327807

but if you do get through passport control ok it will by noways mean it will be plain sailing as once your in the country she may be seized at any point just on the say so of a goverment (so be)expert hopefully not the case but saddly it will be a possibility and no vets letter is going to help as the suppost inspectors will over rule that questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 536276

questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 536276

i would rather you had full facts so you can make the right desision questions about ban laws (IN THE UK) and my dog - Page 2 779277

by TS06 Wed Feb 27 2013, 01:45

There is a generic term 'pitbull' in France, which covers any dogs which look like they may be of, or crossed with a banned breed, unless the owner can prove otherwise. Unfortunately, based on these great photos, I believe your lovely dog would fall into this category and based on what you say, you couldn't prove she is not. Passing through France could present a risk of impoundment.

I would be very surprised if a French vet issued documentation stating she is a cross-Staffy. They may do this if the cross dilutes the appearance of pitbull, but not where the cross makes the dog look even more like a pitbull and therefore subject to DDL.

Sorry I can't suggest a solution. i dont know

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