Breeding and the need for change

First topic message reminder :

Hi every1. I posted a video in the gallary, for me, it say's it all. Dogs ARE over Bread. There needs to be change. How would you go about it ?

I definitely agree there should a crack down on bad breeders and unlicensed breeders - my oh grans nxt door neighbours bred their Alsation with their, what i am assuming is a large staffy cross, they had 9pups 2 fawn (adorable) and the rest where these strange lanky brindle things - i think all dogs are cute in their own right but tbh these things are just bizarre looking and not the bonnyest, to this day they are still there, only a few have sold, tbh i can see why. What makes it worse is the "owners" lock the two adults and the pups in the garden all day, the garden is rank and stinking covered in dog poo. there are flies everywhere. the council has been phoned on many occasions and still nothing has been done!!!
Its so cruel and disgusting and no authorities seem to care!

To be fair as well i got Diesel from a friend who bred his KC registered with his friends staffy so i cant be over judgemental, they did check out the homes of all the pups and kept in contact with the new owners for a wee while after- pics updates etc, and am glad i know at least Diesel went to a good home (if i do say so myself lol)
I tried to adopt but couldnt as stay in a block of maisonettes with no garden, obviously a garden does help but i dont think its essential as long as you exercise your dog. We counted one day and realised there is an average of 3dogs in every block (8 houses per block)on mine and the next street up and we all seem to manage. So i do think adoption rules are too tight.

I get what your saying Steve, personally i dont see it a punishment on good owners, i think owning a dog come's with responsabilty, and if that means paying a fee every year, so some1 can keep track on dogs, well im up for that. Why i think it may work is that these bsb get it so easy, do you think they'll really want to attract so much attension to themselfs, ped dog or mongrol, they need regulating. This cannot continue, small steps are needed to make the big changes. There's a guy living by me who has 4 different breed dogs, he bread a border terrier with a plummber terrier, half way through her pregancy he disided he didnt want her, give her to his partner(they both own the dogs) to care for her. She had her pups. At 4 weeks old the partner gave her back, and kept the pups with him. They now plan to breed her again because they sold the pups for £250. Yesterday he got report ed to the rspca, he was seen banging her head against the wall, then threw her into the boot of his car.
NEXT, same guy got his hads on a Ped, infact a CH afgan hound, Kept her in a shed, which is fine, but this was a shed not a kennel, measuring around 6foot by 8 foot, but not just her, the border terrier, a plummber and a lurcher. She went thin and wouldnt eat, so he sold her for £50, luckly for her, she was given to a guy at my ringcraft who got her seen at a vet. She's now rehomed and happy. My point, this is ! guy, trying to play Breeder. It has to stop

Ticklymac wrote:I definitely agree there should a crack down on bad breeders and unlicensed breeders - my oh grans nxt door neighbours bred their Alsation with their, what i am assuming is a large staffy cross, they had 9pups 2 fawn (adorable) and the rest where these strange lanky brindle things - i think all dogs are cute in their own right but tbh these things are just bizarre looking and not the bonnyest, to this day they are still there, only a few have sold, tbh i can see why. What makes it worse is the "owners" lock the two adults and the pups in the garden all day, the garden is rank and stinking covered in dog poo. there are flies everywhere. the council has been phoned on many occasions and still nothing has been done!!!
Its so cruel and disgusting and no authorities seem to care!

To be fair as well i got Diesel from a friend who bred his KC registered with his friends staffy so i cant be over judgemental, they did check out the homes of all the pups and kept in contact with the new owners for a wee while after- pics updates etc, and am glad i know at least Diesel went to a good home (if i do say so myself lol)
I tried to adopt but couldnt as stay in a block of maisonettes with no garden, obviously a garden does help but i dont think its essential as long as you exercise your dog. We counted one day and realised there is an average of 3dogs in every block (8 houses per block)on mine and the next street up and we all seem to manage. So i do think adoption rules are too tight.

it would cost billions & billions to go around every house with a dog with all the cut back this country have done & going to have there no money for this type of thing... it's up to people report problem owners

kenny d wrote:I get what your saying Steve, personally i dont see it a punishment on good owners, i think owning a dog come's with responsabilty, and if that means paying a fee every year, so some1 can keep track on dogs, well im up for that.

I wont be paying anything for owning a dog and this forum will never support it!!

but the police don't go to every criminals house or every persons house , they put things in place like spot checks , selective discrimination , ANPR etc they don't have to physically check everyone. People just have to know they exist .

Take traffic parking offences for example there are always the stupid people that will park there anyway even though they know it is a TW hotspot and they might get a fine , but dare bet just because of a known presence 60-70% think it's not worth the risk

when you wont fix the problem because back yard breeder just wont take their dogs out

Steve wrote:

kenny d wrote:I get what your saying Steve, personally i dont see it a punishment on good owners, i think owning a dog come's with responsabilty, and if that means paying a fee every year, so some1 can keep track on dogs, well im up for that.

I wont be paying anything for owning a dog and this forum will never support it!!

Thats your choice and obviously we can't push it on the forum , but if someone came up with a good plan that involved expense for dog owners , as upsetting as it may be to make it more expensive to own a dog surely it is a step towards responsible ownership

Steve wrote:when you wont fix the problem because back yard breeder just wont take their dogs out

But like drug dealers , they all have to come out sometime to do their business. To think measures could stamp things out completely would be really naive , but to make a decent impact on the problem is feasible

Steve wrote:

Ticklymac wrote:I definitely agree there should a crack down on bad breeders and unlicensed breeders - my oh grans nxt door neighbours bred their Alsation with their, what i am assuming is a large staffy cross, they had 9pups 2 fawn (adorable) and the rest where these strange lanky brindle things - i think all dogs are cute in their own right but tbh these things are just bizarre looking and not the bonnyest, to this day they are still there, only a few have sold, tbh i can see why. What makes it worse is the "owners" lock the two adults and the pups in the garden all day, the garden is rank and stinking covered in dog poo. there are flies everywhere. the council has been phoned on many occasions and still nothing has been done!!!
Its so cruel and disgusting and no authorities seem to care!

To be fair as well i got Diesel from a friend who bred his KC registered with his friends staffy so i cant be over judgemental, they did check out the homes of all the pups and kept in contact with the new owners for a wee while after- pics updates etc, and am glad i know at least Diesel went to a good home (if i do say so myself lol)
I tried to adopt but couldnt as stay in a block of maisonettes with no garden, obviously a garden does help but i dont think its essential as long as you exercise your dog. We counted one day and realised there is an average of 3dogs in every block (8 houses per block)on mine and the next street up and we all seem to manage. So i do think adoption rules are too tight.

it would cost billions & billions to go around every house with a dog with all the cut back this country have done & going to have there no money for this type of thing... it's up to people report problem owners

it has been reported though and still like i said nothing has been done.

I dont think making people pay for having a dog would solve the problem, people would still own dogs without paying for their license (or whatever u want to call it) look at people who dont pay tv licence, car insurance, road tax etc Not got the resources to check every house for dogs, and neighbours arent going report people coz 1.how do they know they haven't got a license or 2. they may live in an area where you dare not "grass" on anyone

One thing that I do think would help personally is education, unless people are just playing dumb, so many people seem to be completely unaware of the over breeding problem in this country. I get so many people coming up to me when I'm at work with the same comment "Ooh you've got a lot of staffies here haven't you.. why's that then, my sister/brother/mother's just bred/bought a puppy!" I've even have people asking why we've got so many pit bulls which is the funniest.

But then saying all of that it always comes down to money unfortunately, and people that breed purely for money generally don't give a rats a*s about the dogs as long as they can make a quick buck. It's not just staffies we've got the same problem with the lurcher breeders around here and we get terriers of all kinds in by the dozen. BYB's operate in the same way that drug dealers do, especially with the bully breeds, drugs have been illegal for a really long time and there's still a dealer on every street that hasn't been caught, same as there's a still a "pit bull" breeder in every town. Don't mean to sound miserable, and I think working in rescue has probably hardened me a little, but just seems that there's not really any way out while we live in a society of selfish, greedy a-holes!

we had a dog license before and no1 paid for one that why the government got rid.....

i wont or this forum will be supporting silly ideas that wont work! the only way of fixing our dog problem is fixing the society!

also could create more strays when people with dogs can no longer afford to pay the fee every year..

Dave wrote:

Steve wrote:when you wont fix the problem because back yard breeder just wont take their dogs out

But like drug dealers , they all have to come out sometime to do their business. To think measures could stamp things out completely would be really naive , but to make a decent impact on the problem is feasible

look at all the drug dealer there we cutting back on coppers the drug dealer going have a field day...

Ticklymac wrote:also could create more strays when people with dogs can no longer afford to pay the fee every year..

yea your right we wont be talking a £10 or £100 we be talking to closer to £1000 to own a day every year only the rich will be able to afford a dog how can that be right?

Steve wrote:we had a dog license before and no1 paid for one that why the government got rid.....

i wont or this forum will be supporting silly ideas that wont work! the only way of fixing our dog problem is fixing the society!

How much is it going to cost to fix society Steve

prolly alot more then fixing a dog problem but you fix the society problems then you will fix most problem we have today...

only way to fix society is to built a big a** boat...or ark if you will, send out encrypted invitations to all the sane rational sensible human beings left to come to the ark and then smash every dam, water storage thingy and float away to happiness

Ticklymac wrote:only way to fix society is to built a big a** boat...or ark if you will, send out encrypted invitations to all the sane rational sensible human beings left to come to the ark and then smash every dam, water storage thingy and float away to happiness

Now that could work

smashing you get the nails i'll get the wood!

Big Brother Knows when you dont have a tv licence or car tax, i know, i got fined years ago for not having a tv licence, i then got an even bigger fine and suspened prison sentance for non-payment of that fine. Lets just say, im never with out 1. Yes, it would be huge starting out, but it could work.

So why didn't dog licenses work before?

They didn't work because they weren't policed. Car tax & TV licenses are set up on a huge national database. There is no way that they would spend the kind of money it would cost to set that up for dog licenses.

So they make it Law that Breeders are only allowed to sell pups to people with a valid licence, open up a grass line , it works for some people . Sure if there was cash incentive it would be good but personally I would grass them up anyway. Make the breeders have a licence for breeding and under this then they have to get checks done and maintain certain standards

And what about the bybs who don't care who they sell to?

we need to fix society first before even thinking about trying to fix the dog problem....

Caryll wrote:And what about the bybs who don't care who they sell to?

Well thats where the grasses come in of course

dave it's just not going to fix the problem we need to be more realistic about it punish good owner is not the way forward at all because the ones who are making the problem will just carry on like normal!!!

But if a good responsible owner is that they would be happy enough to meet an extra cost that would assist in hitting the ones underneath them.

Seems this is going nowhere as usual as there's nothing constructive coming out of it just negatives , like it won't work , too expensive .................... so how would you sort out BYB , fixing society if someone took it one could take 20 /30 years and its not all parts of society that give me a problem, we need to sort out our problems that hit us and do it now , so how do we do it , instead of just saying it won't work. I say fixing society isn't a realistic idea as it will force the no marks , drug dealers , scroungers further under ground and if they can't legally claim benefits then they will look for other means

Steve wrote:dave it's just not going to fix the problem we need to be more realistic about it punish good owner is not the way front at all because the one who are making hte problem will just carry on like normal!!!

That's the whole point - we need to get to grips with the puppy farms/bybs/irresponsible 'accident' breeders! I honestly don't know how, but that's the only way forward. Making it harder for the good breeders will only make a bigger black market for the bad 'uns.

Yes its making it harder for the good breeders but only slightly , so they have to be licenced and regulated , a good breeder does this already (minus licence and regulates themselves) and I don't think the additional cost of a licence would bother them, we don't have good breeders on the breadline as that would be irresponsible if they are breeding and a few quid to have a licence would send them under so I don't think that argument stands.

Dave wrote:Yes its making it harder for the good breeders but only slightly , so they have to be licenced and regulated , a good breeder does this already (minus licence and regulates themselves) and I don't think the additional cost of a licence would bother them, we don't have good breeders on the breadline as that would be irresponsible if they are breeding and a few quid to have a licence would send them under so I don't think that argument stands.

It's all very well saying that we're being too negative, but what's the point of even sugesting things that clearly won't work just for the sake of being positive?

As I think I said earlier, the KC are trying to tackle the problem with the Assured Breeders Scheme, and eventually they will only register pups bred by members of this scheme. But it will take some time to get up & running to that extent.

We need to educate the buyers, whenever & wherever possible.

The only thing we can do with educating buyers will possibly stop the next time , like me for instance . So if you have someone that will only be a 1 dog family then that education won't be a benefit for 15 years. I agree 100% that the education is beneficial and maybe I'm wrong to say it negatively as we really don't know how many people have surfed the forum without posting and possibly got some education pre puppy purchase that has stopped them going to a BYB , but as fars as posters go them MOSTLY , definitely not all, people come for advice after they have bought a pup , or reserved one and become attached to the point they won't back out

But there are no quick fixes. If it takes 15 years to tackle the problem through education, then so be it. Maybe the government should be looking at an advertising campaign aimed at buyers?

Caryll wrote:But there are no quick fixes. If it takes 15 years to tackle the problem through education, then so be it. Maybe the government should be looking at an advertising campaign aimed at buyers?

That would be a good positive step forward, with some quick results , maybe some horror stories of badly bred pups and life expectancy and health issues and subsequent vets bills as opposed to doing it the best way.. Cheap is not normally Cheerful

That's actually a very good slogan....Cheap Is Not Always Chearful.

Good Morning
Maybe this could be given a try at least it would be a start. Ban all puppy advertising in shop windows, pet shops , local newspapers, Gumtree, Preloved etc etc, then allow only KC approved breeders to advertise in appropriate dog papers or on line. If the situation of unwanted dogs carries on without any resolution the Government may well do as Iceland did a few years ago and that was to ban all dogs in the City, what a heartbreak that would be for many of us.

Anne

A good starting point would be to stifle the point of sale. With certain websites making it way too easy to offload a litter to anyone there’s no wonder byb are on the increase.
If someone sees his mate making easy cash doing nothing more than placing a free add it’s not long before there following suit. (the society problem Steve speaks about where cash is king for little or no effort)
The other issue is that it makes it a wider audience for the byb whereas his local market would have been saturated after a couple of litters they can now just keep breeding and selling.
And one last point, it makes it far too easy to buy on a whim with little or no thought for the future when people browse the site for a sofa and come across a cute pup. Byb only flourish if there is a market out there for them.
I know it won’t eliminate the problem but it would decrease it drastically and it’s not that hard to police. Wouldn’t have to involve people watching the sites either as software can do that quite easy now.

I totally agree that free advertising for puppies should be banned. Gumtree is just one of many, Facebook is another that is rarely mentioned for some reason.

Dave wrote:Seems this is going nowhere as usual as there's nothing constructive coming out of it just negatives ,

the forum help a lot of owners/dogs all over the world. This forum cant & wont support stupid ideas that will punish good owners and also deny good family home for dogs because people cant afford to pay for a dog licenses because that what would if that happens..

Every one should have a licence. To breed that the breeder has to meet standards and all owners should have a licence this should be law

I really give up for god sake just think for 2 mins and you will realize licenses wont fix anything and will only punish good owners & more dogs will be in rescue center because good people wont be able to afford to pay for the licenses.

Steve wrote:I really give up for god sake just think for 2 mins and you will realize licenses wont fix anything and will only punish good owners & more dogs will be in rescue center because good people wont be able to afford to pay for the licenses.

Steve, do you think that the licence could be combined with the chip? A kind of once and forever payment for the duration of the dogs life. Far less administration costs. All pups chipped and licenced by bona fide breeders before they go to new owners. plus blanket ban on certain advertising . This perhaps would deter BYB's, and random checks can be made by Dog Wardens, perhaps even taking the dog away from its owner if not chipped and licenced. Sometimes I feel that owning a dog should be a privilege not a God given right.

Anne

I have not seen a dog wardens for about 7 years because there only million or less owner in the UK so if a dog licences was brought in it owners would have to pay yearly & very likely put off good owners so IMO making a dog licences would make the problem worse not better me i wouldn't pay for one.... i rather see the government get tougher on bad owners not punishing good owners

Panda wrote:Sometimes I feel that owning a dog should be a privilege not a God given right.

there some people who have dog because they are lonely to make they pay it's bang out of order!!

Dave wrote:

Caryll wrote:But there are no quick fixes. If it takes 15 years to tackle the problem through education, then so be it. Maybe the government should be looking at an advertising campaign aimed at buyers?

That would be a good positive step forward, with some quick results , maybe some horror stories of badly bred pups and life expectancy and health issues and subsequent vets bills as opposed to doing it the best way.. Cheap is not normally Cheerful

Caryll wrote:That's actually a very good slogan....Cheap Is Not Always Chearful.

Panda wrote:Good Morning
Maybe this could be given a try at least it would be a start. Ban all puppy advertising in shop windows, pet shops , local newspapers, Gumtree, Preloved etc etc, then allow only KC approved breeders to advertise in appropriate dog papers or on line. If the situation of unwanted dogs carries on without any resolution the Government may well do as Iceland did a few years ago and that was to ban all dogs in the City, what a heartbreak that would be for many of us.

Anne

axam102 wrote:A good starting point would be to stifle the point of sale. With certain websites making it way too easy to offload a litter to anyone there’s no wonder byb are on the increase.
If someone sees his mate making easy cash doing nothing more than placing a free add it’s not long before there following suit. (the society problem Steve speaks about where cash is king for little or no effort)
The other issue is that it makes it a wider audience for the byb whereas his local market would have been saturated after a couple of litters they can now just keep breeding and selling.
And one last point, it makes it far too easy to buy on a whim with little or no thought for the future when people browse the site for a sofa and come across a cute pup. Byb only flourish if there is a market out there for them.
I know it won’t eliminate the problem but it would decrease it drastically and it’s not that hard to police. Wouldn’t have to involve people watching the sites either as software can do that quite easy now.

Caryll wrote:I totally agree that free advertising for puppies should be banned. Gumtree is just one of many, Facebook is another that is rarely mentioned for some reason.

Steve wrote:

Dave wrote:Seems this is going nowhere as usual as there's nothing constructive coming out of it just negatives ,

the forum help a lot of owners/dogs all over the world. This forum cant & wont support stupid ideas that will punish good owners and also deny good family home for dogs because people cant afford to pay for a dog licenses because that what would if that happens..

agriff wrote:Every one should have a licence. To breed that the breeder has to meet standards and all owners should have a licence this should be law

Well let's face it , different people will always have different opinions , me personally being lucky enough not to have any financial worries makes me push for licences and stuff but I know it is not always the case with other people so I respect that, maybe as a last try though would people think differently if the government issued a free licence for a rescue dog ??? , but a couple of things to come out of this positively would be as Caryll suggests a Government advertising campaign to educate people and there should definitely be something done to ban puppy for sale adverts in the small ads, facebook , gumtree etc

So at that point I'm leaving the debate

Panda wrote:Good Morning
Maybe this could be given a try at least it would be a start. Ban all puppy advertising in shop windows, pet shops , local newspapers, Gumtree, Preloved etc etc, then allow only KC approved breeders to advertise in appropriate dog papers or on line. If the situation of unwanted dogs carries on without any resolution the Government may well do as Iceland did a few years ago and that was to ban all dogs in the City, what a heartbreak that would be for many of us.

Anne

That's what i worry about

I agree with what we all have to say. If there was to be a licence, there'd need to be a data base of some kind. Getting people who already have a dog now would be near impossible, as there's no way of knowing who owns a dog. But if a law came in that every Breeder should microchip and the licence would be included with the chip, then sent off to who ever policed the database, with new owners details. (to cover the breeders cost, the price of chipping and licence should be included in the price of the pup. The new owners would then get conformation of ownership and whats expected of them. The licence should then be payed each year, say £150. If it didnt get paid, it would be flagged on the database, just like a tv licence, warning letters sent if payment is missed, threat of court if you dont pay. This wouldnt discriminate against any1, £150 is a fair price, that's £2.88 a week. Just an idea in the right direction i think.

you clearly not thinking about poor family or poor single people they cant afford another bill in their life

It's too much. What about assistance dogs, what about the elderly, people on benefits? £3 per week might not seem much to you & me, but to some others it would be a lot.

I've just ventured back to this thread (now I'm not shattered from work and emotional like yesterday ) and what people have said about changing society first, it's really the only way to start - awareness needs to be raised (tv and the newspapers particularly should be doing something here, and radio because there is a ton of stuff on the internet but you have to have an interest in it in the first place to be finding it) A lot of the people I know have no idea of the problems we are discussing, and would through no fault of their own buy a puppy and not always do their research or they might fail to consider a rescue because they simply don't know the whole sad picture. So grass roots campaign all the way, people from rescues going into schools, tv and radio ads to educate the public on the specific problems faced by certain breeds, and the importance of either choosing a reputable breeder (and how to know if you have found one not a byb) or rehoming.

Steve wrote:how can you licensed breeding the government wouldn't be afford to enforce it..... we had a similar debate before the only way to stop back yard breeders is changing society and that the only way bring silly thing out wont stop bad breeders...

Steve makes a good point and yes I agree you have to start somewhere.
The reason why we have the problems we have regarding over breeding is because of back-yard breeders and also people breeding for financial gain. There is also a mentallity of 'I want my girl to experience having a litter'. What a load of tripe!!!!
Kenny D, I applaud your passion and I for 1 will certainly sign your petition!!