Breeding and the need for change

Hi every1. I posted a video in the gallary, for me, it say's it all. Dogs ARE over Bread. There needs to be change. How would you go about it ?

Breeders must be licenced and limited to how many litters they can have. The breeders should have homes for the pups before they are mated. Animals that are not to be bread should be neutered at 1 year or before free of charge.

Kennels should relax there rehoming policys widening the spectrum of people that could take a dog on.

Thanks Dan, im thinking of starting a petion(excuse the spelling), but dont know where to begin, any ideas

Here you go mate....

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/

Thanks, i've got a meeting set up for monday with my local AM, they've offered to support me on this

Thats Great!!

I would be interested to hear what everyone else thinks... there are conflicting views on this subject!

how can you licensed breeding the government wouldn't be afford to enforce it..... we had a similar debate before the only way to stop back yard breeders is changing society and that the only way bring silly thing out wont stop bad breeders...

You have to start somewhere Steve. Social media campaigns don't cost much to run or manage.

You seem to knock ideas on this, do you have any yourself?

Signed and shared, there's all ready 1 there

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/37866

The an epetition on the above link, it's calling for tuffer laws on breeding, including backstreet breeding. Whether we agree or not, it doesnt change the fact, have you watched the video steve, it's real, it happens, i've allways been aware of the need for re-homeing dogs, but it wasnt until i got friendly with a few rescue worker that i couls see how big the problem was. I'd like there to be so much cost and red tape, that joe bloggs down the road would be too afraid to breed, because the cost would be to large.

Dan, a bit down the page theres a better 1 x

Dan330 wrote:You have to start somewhere Steve. Social media campaigns don't cost much to run or manage.

You seem to knock ideas on this, do you have any yourself?

you would have to have worker on every street of the uk and that not possible no way on it can to be enforce..

you have to fix society because you can fix other things it's sad but it's a FACT.

kenny d wrote:The an epetition on the above link, it's calling for tuffer laws on breeding, including backstreet breeding. Whether we agree or not, it doesnt change the fact, have you watched the video steve, it's real, it happens, i've allways been aware of the need for re-homeing dogs, but it wasnt until i got friendly with a few rescue worker that i couls see how big the problem was. I'd like there to be so much cost and red tape, that joe bloggs down the road would be too afraid to breed, because the cost would be to large.

where is the money coming from to enforce any type of law?? if we going have this type of debate lets be realistic for god sake

Petition for the Government to Tackle Dog Breeding and Introduce a Responsible Breeder Programme

Responsible department: Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

We call upon the Government to take action in tackling the prolific problem of abandoned dogs, overwhelmed rescue centres & countless dogs being euthanised for space.

To introduce Compulsory Breeding Licenses to ANYONE wanting to breed Dogs, a Responsible Breeder Programme for all breeders & impose greater control of breeders.

To ensure breeders take lifetime responsiblilty for their litters including ongoing support to buyers & help to rehome

To ensure breeders educate prospective buyers on the breeds being sold / bought

Ensure breeders homecheck before selling on a pup

Ensure spot checking of all breeders premises

End puppy farms & pet shop selling

Licensing of all pups (like a car log book)

Implement a temporary breeding ban on breeds currently most overwhelming rescues (SBT)

Compulsory microchipping of pups

Compulsory neutering of litters, with the exception of pups specifically approved for licensed breeding

From the breeders, from the cost of wanting to breed, people want to breed, well pay for the trail of unwanted dogs. I have no idea how, this is why i have a meeting the AM, come on steve, even you must feel things cannot go on this way

Tv licening works, maybe it could be inforced in the same way, spot checks, heavy fines, maybe prison, you can get a sentance for watching tv unlicenced, why not prison for breeding a living thing

Steve wrote:

Dan330 wrote:You have to start somewhere Steve. Social media campaigns don't cost much to run or manage.

You seem to knock ideas on this, do you have any yourself?

you would have to have worker on every street of the uk and that not possible no way on it can to be enforce..

you have to fix society because you can fix other things it's sad but it's a FACT.

I do understand where your coming from steve, we need to try

Kelly, I really do understand your needing to do something about the amount of pups being bred, but we cannot punish the responsible people (like Denise or Nosipho, for example) in order to get to the irresponsible ones. Whatever law you get passed, the irresponsible bybs won't abide by it! There will always be those who will breed a litter for the money - they'll just go underground with the result that any poor pups born (and their dams) will be treated badly indeed.

I agree that breeders should be regulated (not licensed, a license is only as good as the local council that upholds it (or not). The Kennel Club have set up the Assured Breeders Scheme which has many good points about it, and it's getting better as the guidelines are improved.

Dan330 wrote:Breeders must be licenced and limited to how many litters they can have. The breeders should have homes for the pups before they are mated. Animals that are not to be bread should be neutered at 1 year or before free of charge.

Kennels should relax there rehoming policys widening the spectrum of people that could take a dog on.

Local councils already have laws in place regarding breeding, but unless they are rigorously enforced they are useless.

I, for one, could never support any petition that includes mandatory neutering at 12 months maximum. I do not approve of early neutering at the best of times, but to be forced into it would be something I could not go along with at all.

Good breeders have waiting lists for their pups and so already have homes lined up, it's the bybs who don't & sell the pups cheap to get rid of them.

The government need to toughen up laws on back yard breeding/puppy farms, not slam unworkable regulations on those who are responsible.

kenny d wrote:Implement a temporary breeding ban on breeds currently most overwhelming rescues (SBT)

Compulsory neutering of litters, with the exception of pups specifically approved for licensed breeding

There is absolutely no way I would sign a petition with those clauses! Neuter a litter of pups? Insane. And a breeding ban would only be adhered to by the responsible breeders - the ones producing good quality, healthy pups! The bybs would have a bloody field day!

I will be honest and say that I agree with responsible breeding obviously, I am still a little confused when it comes to staffies and the other breeds that are filling up the rescues and not getting new homes. Why continue to breed staffs right now at all when every rescue is so full of them. It's morally wrong imo, if a breed is popular that's all well and good, as is betterment of the breed etc but staffs have so much stigma and every day we are losing beautiful adult staffies, it's heart breaking. Before anyone misunderstands I'm not saying responsible people shouldn't have a puppy if that's what they want, but surely any breeding of staffies be it byb or registered is compounding this already huge problem? I don't have any answers, and I can certainly see all sides but to me the most logical thing to do would be to curb the breeding (somehow? in a magical world where people out there listen perhaps) for now, and give these abandoned dogs a real chance of survival and happiness. It's all so difficult

Yes, valid points, i have some good friends who are good breeders, they do good work, how to stop byb's is a difficult 1, but still needs to be dealt with. Maybe a Petition could be put together by good breeders. As for owning a dog, what about a licence, you should renew it every year, ban selling sites like gumtree from selling animals, Im not againt good, honest breeders, im againt the1's that abuse the guidlines that are already in place. This is why my 1st point of call is with the local AM, i need to be realistic about what can and cant be done, as for neutering, im not sure. I think if you keep an un-neutered / spayed pet, you CANNOT breed with out going through a governing body. Something needs doing, personally, i'd like to see the responsable breeders jump on board and say what they think should/could be done

PygmyParrot wrote:I will be honest and say that I agree with responsible breeding obviously, I am still a little confused when it comes to staffies and the other breeds that are filling up the rescues and not getting new homes. Why continue to breed staffs right now at all when every rescue is so full of them. It's morally wrong imo, if a breed is popular that's all well and good, as is betterment of the breed etc but staffs have so much stigma and every day we are losing beautiful adult staffies, it's heart breaking. Before anyone misunderstands I'm not saying responsible people shouldn't have a puppy if that's what they want, but surely any breeding of staffies be it byb or registered is compounding this already huge problem? I don't have any answers, and I can certainly see all sides but to me the most logical thing to do would be to curb the breeding (somehow? in a magical world where people out there listen perhaps) for now, and give these abandoned dogs a real chance of survival and happiness. It's all so difficult

If you ban the responsible breeders from breeding, the breed as we know it will die out. You will be left with poor quality byb litters with all sorts of health problems because, make no mistake, the bybs will not health test and will not look after the health of the dam or the litter.

What about the people who cannot adopt a dog? There are those (Dave being a recent one, who couldn't adopt because his wife was a childminder, and me for another) who cannot adopt & therefore need to buy a pup. What about people who want to show their dogs? What about people who want to compete in agility/obedience & want to start from scratch with a dog that is relatively free of any health problems?

I appreciate that, but whichever way this is done the breed inevitably suffers. A short ban would perhaps see an increase in staffies being rehomed, and for me this a major priority in my argument. Nobody 'needs' a puppy, nobody 'needs' a dog - but the abandoned staffs do need our help. As I say I don't have the answers and I know there is no ideal or perfect solution, just thinking out of the box a bit I guess and typing as I was thinking. We all feel the same here, and I know if we knew what to do we would get out there and do it

At least we can agree that byb need strangling

They doesnt want to Ban responasble breeders, they want to get Compulsary licence's, most of the points good breeders do anyway, like vetting homes , micro chipping, theres a few strong points at the end regarding neutering, im not to sure on this one myself, but agree with the rest, the good breeders have nothing to worry about i think. A tempory ban on breeding wont see the staffy vanishish, there's 1000's out there. I do feel tho, getting a ban in place with byb's would be difficult

Ok, so imposing and mixed views. Can we put our heads together and think of a realistic way to change things

Caryll wrote:Kelly, I really do understand your needing to do something about the amount of pups being bred, but we cannot punish the responsible people (like Denise or Nosipho, for example) in order to get to the irresponsible ones. Whatever law you get passed, the irresponsible bybs won't abide by it! There will always be those who will breed a litter for the money - they'll just go underground with the result that any poor pups born (and their dams) will be treated badly indeed.

I agree that breeders should be regulated (not licensed, a license is only as good as the local council that upholds it (or not). The Kennel Club have set up the Assured Breeders Scheme which has many good points about it, and it's getting better as the guidelines are improved.

Dan330 wrote:Breeders must be licenced and limited to how many litters they can have. The breeders should have homes for the pups before they are mated. Animals that are not to be bread should be neutered at 1 year or before free of charge.

Kennels should relax there rehoming policys widening the spectrum of people that could take a dog on.

Local councils already have laws in place regarding breeding, but unless they are rigorously enforced they are useless.

I, for one, could never support any petition that includes mandatory neutering at 12 months maximum. I do not approve of early neutering at the best of times, but to be forced into it would be something I could not go along with at all.

Good breeders have waiting lists for their pups and so already have homes lined up, it's the bybs who don't & sell the pups cheap to get rid of them.

The government need to toughen up laws on back yard breeding/puppy farms, not slam unworkable regulations on those who are responsible.

They want to ban puppyfarms and stop petshops selling dogs

Byb's are the major issue. Without them being so utterly callous in the way they go about breeding the staffs predicament would not be the way it is.

I must admit this whole topic makes me really upset, so apologies Caryll if my messages read a little snippy, haven't slept after my night shift either yet

In my opinion the byb's are the ones that need stopping,they are the people causing a influx of staffies that are crossed somewhere down the line with other breeds,they are never health checked your lucky if they have been wormed or flead, the breeder doesn't care where the pups go as long as they have the money. A teenager near us got offered drugs free by a dealer his 1st fix free to get him needing more, luckily he said no, the next question was "do you want to buy a staffy?) the dealer was reported. The dealers house was raided drugs were removed,dealer was removed drug dealer wife/partner left alone to sell staffies.At least 6 pups gone to start the chain all over again,restrict the people, neuter the people 1st not puppies

Good valid points made that cannot be ignored, by Caryll re the breeding. I for one am with Rach, that I would love to see no breeding for period of time just to give those staffies that need a home a chance, that in turn just leads to the points made by Caryll. I would love a dog licence to be brought into force, and checked yearly, but its just not going to help.

My idea licence would be this, every puppy/dog gets one, the vet is to have those details too, and should be carried everywhere by the owner. From time to time, someone should be allowed to check any owner for the licence. We have to carry one for driving our car, why not for our dog. But back to Carylls points, its still not going to stop the bybs, and ever make them go underground, thus adding more suffering to the dogs. Something does need to be done !

Yes, the petition is aimed at all breeders, i think you'll agree, the good1's do mostly whats suggested any way, so shouldnt have to much impact on them. The problem DOES lie with byb's, and it needs addressing, i think bringing back a dog licence for ALL dog owners is a must, along with compulsary micro chipping, enforce such change is a difficult 1 . Please people, dont think for 1 minute im slating good breeders, im not, this is why i think the Good1'[s need to get a petition going that goes along with their ethic's. Help the Staffy's who are getting abused by the byb scum, why cant we speak out for them. Surley, if you get the good breeders to stand up for the breed, ped or not, people will take notice.

I agree Kelly, if the good breeders stand up and speak people should take notice. And I know you are not slating them off, you are just looking out for all those staffies that need a home all because of bybs and it does need addressing.

Thanks Staffylover, Do you think we could work together on this, all get thinking, i'd like for the breeders to help if possible. Breeders allways get the blame, the good 1s also need to stand up for themself because of this and i think by fighting for better rights proves this

Could the breeders here post what they think should happen, when i go to the meeting Monday, i would like to put these points across x

It will never end It's a sad fact of life but where this is a quick dollar to be earned, people are callous and don't have compassion for the poor dogs that r pts, there is no government in the world that has that much control over society to stop such things, if they had that kind of power people would need licenses to have children before dogs.. I know it's depressing and so so sad but I think the most that can be done is to educate people from young to old and hope to get through to at least some of them..

we have to remember dogs are not humans and our staffies only live on a avg of 12 years we would have to stop breeding for 10 plus years to see any effects and that would mean our breed would die out...

most member know how i feel about the only ways of fixing this problem is forcing a change in our society

This topic is one that we are all passionate about, in many countries, I think we all agree that in a perfect world no dog that was not in pain would never be pts, but in a perfect world there would also be no murder, assault, robbery, drugs or child abusers.. Unfortunately these problems are not easily fixed, if at all..

kenny d wrote: A tempory ban on breeding wont see the staffy vanishish, there's 1000's out there. I do feel tho, getting a ban in place with byb's would be difficult

Kelly, think about it. You ban breeding staffs. The KC and the Dog Advisory Council want to see bitches not bred from over the age of 5 & not before the age of 2. To make any difference at all, you would have to bring a ban in for at least 5 years. By doing so you will lose virtually all the good breeding stock & the breed will suffer and yes, possiblt die out. In the meantime you will create a black market for the bybs & they will be the only ones to benefit!

kenny d wrote:They want to ban puppyfarms and stop petshops selling dogs

Great & I wholeheartedly support that, but not the other things mentioned. And because of those other things I, and many others, would not sign the petition!

Steve wrote:we have to remember dogs are not humans and our staffies only live on a avg of 12 years we would have to stop breeding for 10 plus years to see any effects and that would be our breed would die out...

I agree, as I've said above.

Ok, so if they didnt do the breeding ban, is there anything else you think that could help

It's so heartbreaking and I work in rescue so I'm in this world every single day.. but I've gotta agree with Caryll that it can't be all breeders being targeted or we'd only be left with badly bred, unhealthy crossbreeds.

I'd say 95% of the staffies in rescue aren't pure bred, because decent breeders that breed pure staffies spend so much money doing so, and so much time finding the right homes that they wouldn't just let them go to whoever, and most would have to go back to the breeder if the owners circumstances changed, who would then find another decent home for them.

There are breeding licences in other countries that do work, but the UK is just far too slack on punishment and rules and regulations in general IMO, they need to tighten up other measures before they will even think of tightening up on breeding sadly. Which is awful for staffie lovers as it's soul destroying seeing our dogs suffer in the way that they are.

It infuriates me when people go out and by a crossbred staffy pup out of a newspaper when they are in the position to rescue just because they wanted that one, and also when people go to one rescue centre and get declined so just give up and say all rescue centres are awful, if you really wanted to rescue there is always a way around circumstances. But if you have personal reasons for wanting a pure bred pup then that's your choice and you can't force someone to adopt.

Rachel33 wrote:It's so heartbreaking and I work in rescue so I'm in this world every single day.. but I've gotta agree with Caryll that it can't be all breeders being targeted or we'd only be left with badly bred, unhealthy crossbreeds.

I'd say 95% of the staffies in rescue aren't pure bred, because decent breeders that breed pure staffies spend so much money doing so, and so much time finding the right homes that they wouldn't just let them go to whoever, and most would have to go back to the breeder if the owners circumstances changed, who would then find another decent home for them.

There are breeding licences in other countries that do work, but the UK is just far too slack on punishment and rules and regulations in general IMO, they need to tighten up other measures before they will even think of tightening up on breeding sadly. Which is awful for staffie lovers as it's soul destroying seeing our dogs suffer in the way that they are.

It infuriates me when people go out and by a crossbred staffy pup out of a newspaper when they are in the position to rescue just because they wanted that one, and also when people go to one rescue centre and get declined so just give up and say all rescue centres are awful, if you really wanted to rescue there is always a way around circumstances. But if you have personal reasons for wanting a pure bred pup then that's your choice and you can't force someone to adopt.

Where have these laws worked??

We need some type of national service back... drill into people to respect each other and animal again is the only way because our society is that bad..

Licenses, whatever the country, will only work if they are policed. In the UK that won't happen because nobody will be prepared to a) take responsibility, b) pay to get it started up & c) employ trained people to do the job.

I think we are being very negative about something that could be very positive. Why not retrain some people to do stuff like this and take them off the jobless list where they are just bleeding me dry anyway , a few more quid than benefits and a uniform appeals to some people . You only have to look at Traffic Wardens , the biggest B******s known to man

Dave wrote:I think we are being very negative about something that could be very positive. Why not retrain some people to do stuff like this and take them off the jobless list where they are just bleeding me dry anyway , a few more quid than benefits and a uniform appeals to some people . You only have to look at Traffic Wardens , the biggest B******s known to man

Because it impossible to enforce dave to enforce something like this they would need million plus army and this county & the rest of the world can't afford.....

we still have pitbull and types in the country and they been banned for years they cant enforce it because it would cost to much money you would need a worker on every street 24/7 and it's impossible.

Dave wrote:I think we are being very negative about something that could be very positive. Why not retrain some people to do stuff like this and take them off the jobless list where they are just bleeding me dry anyway , a few more quid than benefits and a uniform appeals to some people . You only have to look at Traffic Wardens , the biggest B******s known to man

I understand what you mean, Dave, but what would you have me say? Most of the solutions mentioned are unworkable.

The KC are going some way to help, eventually their Assured Breeders Scheme breeders will be the only breeders you will be able to buy registered pups from. But that will take a long time & still won't entirely stop the bybs.

Its only impossible because we say it is , taxes, dog licences , fines could be put towards a scheme if authorities were prepared to apply thmselves but if we just say its impossible and accept it then its a non starter

it wouldn't cover it, we would have to pay silly amount a year to own a dog why punish good owner for the bad one?