I've opened a can of worms :(

I sometimes visit another forum, alot of the people there are really into showing. Any way, theres a debate on there about declining show entrys. Well to cut a long story short, i give my view. basically at class the other week, i was told by this one person that they "will have a champ next year, not because of the dog, but because of their face, being so well known", So in the debate i said what was said at class, and that being a novice i felt put off. I didnt say who said it, but now OMG, i've been called a bad loser, which my reply was, that i've only entered open shows, not champ, and that kenny hasnt lost, he's also been placed, at every show. And hpow can we be "bad losers if we havnt entered at champ level??? So yes, im not flavour of the month

Some people don't like to be told the truth.

I've had the same experinces showing Border Collies, Belgian Shepherds, Staffords & EBTs. Your face pushes you up or down the line even before the judge has seen your dog.

That doesn't mean you won't win, but it does put a newcomer in between a rock & a hard place.

When I started showing Bandit the breeder used to stand right by the judge's table and say loudly "The black brindle one with the long haired lady is one of mine - he's a nice one". She never said it to the judge, but he could hear it. Bandit was placed in the top 3 of every show where she did that!

It's one of the things that stopped me showing Bandit. EBTs aren't quite as bad as that, but they can still be very 'clicky'.

Yes, i agree Caryll, i've decided to only enter whats been paid for already, then im leaving the show world well alone. I can think of much more fun things to do

one of many reason of declining show entry's is a lot of people don't agree what goes off in kc shows... i don't think i would ever show a dog i don't want to be around people who thinks close line breeding is fine or breeding unhealthy dog is fine also.. this is the problem the kc and shows has a huge job on their hand getting people getting involved with them again.

most people want healthy best friends but some of these show promote unhealthy dogs

That's how I ended up. I went to loads of shows with the collies & with Bandit & took all the knocks. In the end, I took one knock too many when I knew that Bandit was a far better dog than the dog that won - but the dog that won was owned by the judge's daughter's partner!

With Dempsey, I just got so bored & fed up with it all. I wasn't enjoying it, Dempsey wasn't enjoying it & my oh (who had to drive me there) wasn't enjoying it! I gave up after about half a dozen shows.

They really need to look at how to get people going to the smaller shows (the ones where you're more likely to get a decent crack of the whip) - the club/breed society shows. These are the ones that have specialist judges (not just someone who is sanctioned to judge terriers as a whole) and are more concerned with good stock coming through. But the cost of championship shows is so high nowadays that a lot of people are deciding to enter those, but not enter the smaller shows to save money.

Steve, not all show dogs are unhealthy. And a lot of the staffords in the show world are very healthy indeed. I'm not supporting them, just saying that it's mainly in certain breeds that the problems are at their worst.

Other forums are rubbish, thats why

Of course!

Caryll wrote:Steve, not all show dogs are unhealthy. And a lot of the staffords in the show world are very healthy indeed. I'm not supporting them, just saying that it's mainly in certain breeds that the problems are at their worst.

I'm talking about all breeds, but there are a lot of lines that are pretty bad with to much close line breeding in staffy we have see some of them on here.

So it goes on in the dog world too, how sad. I hate that, its all about who you know thing!

Just read through your other forum posts. Not everybody was jumping down your throat, at least! Some agreed that it's about time a close look was made at the whole show scene. Newcomers are often made to feel 'outsiders' or that they know nothing.

I didn't post for two reasons
1. I don't want to be disloyal to this forum by posting there (I am staff here, after all!)
2. I've had several run-ins with the people who did jump down your throat in the past & I didn't want to start that up again!

Steve wrote:

Caryll wrote:Steve, not all show dogs are unhealthy. And a lot of the staffords in the show world are very healthy indeed. I'm not supporting them, just saying that it's mainly in certain breeds that the problems are at their worst.

I'm talking about all breeds, but there are a lot of lines that are pretty bad with to much close line breeding in staffy we have see some of them on here.

Yes, I agree - but it's changing. It can't change overnight! You can't eliminate all close linebred dogs from the breeding pool, you'll lose too much in the way of quality and, yes, health! It will take time for the old-timers to leave the breeding business & for the newer, clued-up breeders to make a mark.

i think to much close line breed very disturbing if you cant search for a dog that improve your dogs without going back to your dog family you shouldn't be breeder at all and it should be banned we live in 2012 it get me really mad just thinking about it after the TV show about this this one of the main reason normal people don't want to be part with any of this.

The shows I have been to are like a room full of bitches the the animals being shown lol, I go to the shows as a bit of a hobby with my blue staffy and well it's like racist in the dog worlds hey don't like staffys as much as other breeds and they hate blue staffs well I am going to carry on and wave the staffy and blue staffy flag high . And if a win any thing or get placed I will be very calm and polite on the outside but with in I will be sticking my fingers up and having a good old grin on my face lol it's a funny old world

Yes, it can be very b1tchy!

I would never be able to go to a show because i would get thrown out for saying the wrong thing to someone, or should I say saying the right thing. I know I would get in an arguement with someone.

I am usually a quiet person who wouldn't argue with anyone but somethings do wind me up, and the close breeding is one of them.

yes, only a few jumped down my throat, but i expect a few more may join in, if they cant take the truth, then hell to them, lol, Me to kathy, i'd say the right thing, but be made out to say the wrong

I'll always wave the blue staffy flag

Alan Hedges has jumped on, that man allways has something to say

like alot of things in this world, it's not WHAT you know.. it's WHO you know!

Steve wrote:i think to much close line breed very disturbing if you cant search for a dog that improve your dogs without going back to your dog family you shouldn't be breeder at all and it should be banned we live in 2012 it get me really mad just thinking about it after the TV show about this this one of the main reason normal people don't want to be part with any of this.

I do believe it is begining to change, this is the first time ever that dogs were not allowed in crufts because of bad breeding. i think it will take many more years, but it might eventually change for even better

it will take about 20 plus years to get to stage where i would like... some breeders still live in the stone ages, who don't care about health of our best friends.

as long as dogs make money yes, people wont care. im getting annoyed at the stupid amount of crossbreeds that are becoming designer breeds - no matter what that cross breed will do to the heatlh of the dogs.

Well said Steve, i didnt know anything like this before joining here, it shocks me, the lengh people will go to for a "Good Dog"

Hayley wrote:as long as dogs make money yes, people wont care. im getting annoyed at the stupid amount of crossbreeds that are becoming designer breeds - no matter what that cross breed will do to the heatlh of the dogs.

you going off topic we not talking about back yard breeders...

I was going to show Skye and took her to ring craft classes and she was progressing well until a stuck up **** with a black brindle staff said to me infront of my daughter "I bet you paid through the nose for her but she won't win you anything so you waisted your money"
I didn't get skye to show but I thought it would be a different thing to try but after that I thought mine and Skye's life is too short to be around that sort of attitude so we walked out

I agree. It's a cut throat place to be, thank god i saved Kenny from it all

Have any of you read the book "Show Dog?" It was fun and actually pretty interesting.

I am a little nervous about gettting into this whole world, but I will be soon since our breeder would like to show Callie. Her parents are both champions/grand champions. We didn't really want a show dog, but we wanted a puppy from her mom, and actually I think it will be fun.

I of course think she is perfect and better than any other dog in the world But she's slender, and has a curve to her tail/carries it too high--so perhaps won't do that well (in my rudimentary understanding of these things). Her little tail with its white tip is actually one of the things I think is cutest about her.

micheled wrote:Have any of you read the book "Show Dog?" It was fun and actually pretty interesting.

I am a little nervous about gettting into this whole world, but I will be soon since our breeder would like to show Callie. Her parents are both champions/grand champions. We didn't really want a show dog, but we wanted a puppy from her mom, and actually I think it will be fun.

I of course think she is perfect and better than any other dog in the world But she's slender, and has a curve to her tail/carries it too high--so perhaps won't do that well (in my rudimentary understanding of these things). Her little tail with its white tip is actually one of the things I think is cutest about her.

Callie will do fine she is a beauty (but you're wrong about the perfect and better bit because that's my 2 )

Yes, Calie will do well,dont worry

Thanks friends . I think Tilly, Tommy and Kenny are exactly what I picture when I think "Staffy."
Dave, Tommy's puppy pic was my favorite this month among many really cute ones.
Actually he kind of looks like a little Kenny...don't you think?

Gazagem wrote:I was going to show Skye and took her to ring craft classes and she was progressing well until a stuck up **** with a black brindle staff said to me infront of my daughter "I bet you paid through the nose for her but she won't win you anything so you waisted your money"
I didn't get skye to show but I thought it would be a different thing to try but after that I thought mine and Skye's life is too short to be around that sort of attitude so we walked out

how true you are Clare.. what a pompous stuck up prig ! Skye is already a winner!!

yes mich, he is like kenny

I got an apolige off Alan Hedges, As the Chairman of the Breed council, i felt the way he spoke to me was disgusting,

Well, an apology of sorts - big headed, self opinionated pr*t. Never did like him much. Seems to think that if we don't know the names of those being dishonest, it doesn't happen. Well, his answers haven't made me respect him any more.

The problem is, 99% of the people who enter shows are very honest & repsectable. The other 1% are win at all costs. If judges are totally honest (and know the breed standard properly) then that 1% aren't a problem. So we have to lay the blame at the judges' door - if they are hoenst it doesn't matter if the exhibitors aren't.

I dont like him and i've never met him, i think he only said sorry because i told him i was reporting him to the KC .

Im not showing anymore, so it doesnt matter to me, but if i did want to show, having a go with him has stopped any chance Kenny would of had. My hubby said he's proud of me for speaking the truth and standing up for what i belive in. Thats good enough for me:)

What are the criteria for judging dogs?
Is the winner supposed to be the one that best fits breed guidelines?
How are the guidelines interpreted?

Just curious as I have no interest in dog shows but do see it ruffle feathers quite a lot.

Working dog wrote:What are the criteria for judging dogs?
Is the winner supposed to be the one that best fits breed guidelines?
How are the guidelines interpreted?

Just curious as I have no interest in dog shows but do see it ruffle feathers quite a lot.

I think Caryll would probably be the one to answer your question there.

I have seen the same thing happen here, so it happens all over the world.
There are kennel names that always seem to be popping up in the winners line even if their dog is not as good as other comming below them, and this is not even for catogories that i have entered, i have seen it a few times. Me and Romeo have a speciltiy soon so we will see how we go.
i totally get your point though Kennyd

kenny d wrote:Im not showing anymore, so it doesnt matter to me, but if i did want to show, having a go with him has stopped any chance Kenny would of had. My hubby said he's proud of me for speaking the truth and standing up for what i belive in. Thats good enough for me:)

Yes, well done - you've certainly stirred things up - although that isn't difficult on that forum!

Working dog wrote:What are the criteria for judging dogs?
Is the winner supposed to be the one that best fits breed guidelines?
How are the guidelines interpreted?

Just curious as I have no interest in dog shows but do see it ruffle feathers quite a lot.

Judges are usually people who have bred good litters of the breed(s) of their choice & have proved to the Societies that they know the breed standard well enough to pick out good dogs. They should know the Breed Standard of the relevant breed, and should know how to interpret it with regards to any dogs being shown under them. The breed society will ask them if they want to go on a judges' list & if they say yes, then they start at the bottom - small open shows with small entries & they work their way up. They can also study to judge other breeds within their own chosen group & then maybe other breeds in other groups.

Eventually, if they're good enough they will be put forward to the KC for permission to award Challenge Certificates (CCs) and so to be instrumental in making up a champion.

The high of any judge's career is to be asked to judge Best in Group & then Best in Show at championship shows. Then of course the pinnacle would be to be invited to judge at Crufts.

The problems come when a judge has friends showing under him/her. Does he/she place the dogs according to his interpretation of the Standard, or does he place 'faces'? An honest judge will always judge the dog, not the handler, but not all judges are honest........

Even if i had a pedigree I wouldnt be intrested in showing for the reasons you express. These are the people that look down there noses at me for having a cross breed like I've just polluted the whole genetic gene pool.
I've read alot of peoples complaints about judges and seen them get shot down in flames for being poor loosers, being an outsider and looking at there post in an impartial way I tend to agree with the person complaining.
The inner core of the show ring circuit seem to be a bit of an "old boys club" to me no matter what breed. wonder what the price difference is between a pup from a champ and a normal pedigree, and wonder what goes on behind the scenes to achive this.