Cesar Millan

What do you think of Cesar Millan and his techniques on the Dog Whisperer program?

I've seen very mixed opinions about him recently and his website articles are littered with abusive messages criticising his methods and deeming them cruel.

Personally I think he's awesome and have never seen anything that could be perceived as cruel on any of his programs. We've been skim reading his 'how to raise the perfect dog' book recently and will definately implement most of what we've read.

John

there have been lots of posts on here with the same question and lots of mixed answers some like some dont. it is actualy flashed on the screen during broadcasting that his techniques should not be tried without proffessional guidance and many people take them out of context. he works with some hard dogs not like our puppies. our puppies dont have big issues and so would not need such drastic measures to be taken to correct any behaviour. with love proper guidance and training which is consistent and not all over the place none of our dogs should end up needing such drastic measures.

Oh, dear.

Personally I can't stand the man. I don't like most of his methods although I admit that he does have a 'way' with certain dogs.

I wouldn't use most of his techniques - they are outdated & sometimes cruel.

I prefer victoria stillwell think shes awesome at what she does x

Jackieb wrote:I prefer victoria stillwell think shes awesome at what she does x

I agree, most of her training is commen sense though. She's still great, trains through positive methods and never negative unlike some!!

Oh and I like her boots

Love both Cesar and Victora

Skullkandi wrote:Love both Cesar and Victora

me too.

I don't really see how his techniques are outdated, they either work or they don't, they're either cruel or they're not, surely?

J&L wrote:

Skullkandi wrote:Love both Cesar and Victora

me too.

I don't really see how his techniques are outdated, they either work or they don't, they're either cruel or they're not, surely?

I think what Caryll if referring too are things like the 'alpha roll' - forcing your dog onto his back in submission and things like that. The whole 'alpha' thing is considered by some as old fashioned, and some use the theory to train their dogs using fear and punishment rather than praise and reward.

I personally think that he does know dogs, but I don't agree with alot of his methods, and much prefer Victoria Stilwell. I've used her approach with my dog and he is very well trained and has excellent manners (most of the time!)

I think ceaser has a gift with dogs and is very talented but I dont think tv protrays him to his best and thats lets him down im sure in reality he has helped many dogs and there owners

I like both Ceasar and Victoria, have wtched both their shows ect. in our classes we used victorias ways although we also brought in some of ceasers using the treats and positive reinforcement to a point at the perfect timing. so it just all depends n the person...

shontelle wrote:

J&L wrote:

Skullkandi wrote:Love both Cesar and Victora

me too.

I don't really see how his techniques are outdated, they either work or they don't, they're either cruel or they're not, surely?

I think what Caryll if referring too are things like the 'alpha roll' - forcing your dog onto his back in submission and things like that. The whole 'alpha' thing is considered by some as old fashioned, and some use the theory to train their dogs using fear and punishment rather than praise and reward.

I personally think that he does know dogs, but I don't agree with alot of his methods, and much prefer Victoria Stilwell. I've used her approach with my dog and he is very well trained and has excellent manners (most of the time!)

I can see the point, but I think he only uses forceful techniques on overly agressive dogs and some of these dogs would otherwise be deemed irrepairable without his rehabilitation. I think being the dogs leader is pretty much common sense, but as to how you become leader i suppose depends on how unruly the dog is.

gem wrote:I think ceaser has a gift with dogs and is very talented but I dont think tv protrays him to his best and thats lets him down im sure in reality he has helped many dogs and there owners

Tend to agree with this view but agree that the alpha roll is not the answer and is misused.

I think the main problem with CM is (apart from his methods which will always be controversial with some) is that he isn't honest about them. He doesn't tell the viewers about the prong/shock collars or the kicks.

Then, when people find out it makes him look worse than he probably is.

is that definately true about the collars though?

Ty wrote:

gem wrote:I think ceaser has a gift with dogs and is very talented but I dont think tv protrays him to his best and thats lets him down im sure in reality he has helped many dogs and there owners

Tend to agree with this view but agree that the alpha roll is not the answer and is misused.

J&L wrote:is that definately true about the collars though?

Oh, yes! He's been privately filmed using both types of collar, but he won't admit to it on air.

It's a shame, because despite the fact that I think his general methods are outdated, and based on the wrong assumptions of Alpha/Pack Leader, he really does have an affinity with certain types of dog, and he genuinely loves dogs.

Not trying to be contentious but please clarify what you mean by the incorrect assumptions with alpha/pack leader

Ty wrote:Not trying to be contentious but please clarify what you mean by the incorrect assumptions with alpha/pack leader

The alpha dog theories are based on pretty poor science that has later been proven to be of little value. Much of it was actually done on stressed wolves living in captivity and they acted very different from wild wolves. And even wild wolves act differently from dogs. Behavior is modified much faster than let's say a digestive system so dogs today are quite different from wolves because we wanted them to be and bred them towards another goal.
You can read a little of it here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid

As for Millan.. He's done some good work for the reputation of the pit bull and things like informing people that dogs need regular exercise. I dislike his methods and cannot stand to watch the show and the obvious discomfort of the dogs. I do not think he is cruel on purpose, though, I think he's just not very good at reading dog language.

This is more or less my opinions on the subject: http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

Aniemother wrote:

Ty wrote:Not trying to be contentious but please clarify what you mean by the incorrect assumptions with alpha/pack leader

The alpha dog theories are based on pretty poor science that has later been proven to be of little value. Much of it was actually done on stressed wolves living in captivity and they acted very different from wild wolves. And even wild wolves act differently from dogs. Behavior is modified much faster than let's say a digestive system so dogs today are quite different from wolves because we wanted them to be and bred them towards another goal.
You can read a little of it here: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid

As for Millan.. He's done some good work for the reputation of the pit bull and things like informing people that dogs need regular exercise. I dislike his methods and cannot stand to watch the show and the obvious discomfort of the dogs. I do not think he is cruel on purpose, though, I think he's just not very good at reading dog language.

Couldn't put it better!

Thanks for those links. Have been read with interest.

Very informative links Ane, and very well put. I completely agree with you.

I used the kick ONCE...and the results where horrifying. I used it on Kellev, my other dog and it was the gentlest touch ever, I swear, I brushed his flank with my heel...the dog had a heart attack!!! =/
Prong collars - There is no need for them EVER and if I caught one anywhere near my dogs neck, I would crush it and maul the person responsible.
Electroshock Collars - I hope the person who invented such cruelty was shot.

Those are the only issues I have with Cesar, everything else seems to work perfectly.

Interesting. I agree with the last paragraph, but i do feel that Cesar is being criticised with an unfair bias to the dominance techniques used in more extreme cases and the philosophies of rules, boundries and limitations, and calm, assertive energy are being ignored.

I also wonder about the concept of a pack being based around parenting instead of dominance. Cesar is said to use dominance techniques in so much as he makes corrections and claims his space, but surely these are natural parenting techniques.

I am overlooking the shock collar reports, possibly naively.

J&L wrote:
I also wonder about the concept of a pack being based around parenting instead of dominance. Cesar is said to use dominance techniques in so much as he makes corrections and claims his space, but surely these are natural parenting techniques.

I am overlooking the shock collar reports, possibly naively.

He doesn't use 'dominance', he uses the outdated (and disproved) theory of every dog 'pack' having an alpha and omega member, and that the human in a family/dog environment must be alpha. This has been disproved by the guy who actually invented it!

This doesn't mean taht you shouldn't be in charge of your dog, but things like the alpha roll, eating first & going through doors first, coupled with complete dominance over a dog only result in a frightened, subservient animal. That really isn't what I, for one, would want!

J&L wrote:
I also wonder about the concept of a pack being based around parenting instead of dominance. Cesar is said to use dominance techniques in so much as he makes corrections and claims his space, but surely these are natural parenting techniques.

Oh I'm sure lots of people parent the way CM trains dogs, I just don't like that either. You can force your kid to say "I love you" but you can't make them to mean it. In the same way I'm not going to force my dogs to do what I tell them, they do it because they want to. In many ways the end result is the same, but the relationship becomes something completely different.

Aniemother wrote:Oh I'm sure lots of people parent the way CM trains dogs, I just don't like that either. You can force your kid to say "I love you" but you can't make them to mean it. In the same way I'm not going to force my dogs to do what I tell them, they do it because they want to. In many ways the end result is the same, but the relationship becomes something completely different.

Exactly. My dogs are trained with kindness, patience & a happy atmosphere. If I feel that either me or the dog is getting frustrated or tetchy, then I end the training session with a simple thing, like "sit" and then give loads of praise. That way next time we train, they'll remember the end of the last session - fun - and they'll want to do what I ask.

Aniemother wrote:

J&L wrote:
I also wonder about the concept of a pack being based around parenting instead of dominance. Cesar is said to use dominance techniques in so much as he makes corrections and claims his space, but surely these are natural parenting techniques.

Oh I'm sure lots of people parent the way CM trains dogs, I just don't like that either. You can force your kid to say "I love you" but you can't make them to mean it. In the same way I'm not going to force my dogs to do what I tell them, they do it because they want to. In many ways the end result is the same, but the relationship becomes something completely different.

I was referring to dogs, and dogs are very different to humans.

This same topic was on another forum i go on seems you eaither love him or you hate him.
Im a fan of cesar, ok i may not agree with all his methods but i dont agree with anyone 100% there will always be things i dont agree with.

Too me the "tap" looks so bad because the dog reacts as it hasnt been corrected before and i dont see a problem with the tap he dosnt "kick" the dogs ive seen him correct by this method never yelp.

This guy knows what hes doing when it comes too dogs, he does alot for them too and understands them.

As for something being put about shock collars/prong collars, he trys too use what the owner uses dosnt mean he recommeneds them infact he often can be seen using slip lead/types.

Its like victoria i agree with some of her methods others i dont.

Its whats best for the dog at the end of the day and what methods work for them.

My oh really is a cesar fan and before i met my oh i will say stan was a little out of control in regards too leash walking and when offlead would run over too other dogs, now stan is a completely different dog hes so much better behaved.

If people dont like him its up too them there life there decision the same as people who do like him but it really annoys me people slating him.

After all none of us have met him dont know him personally.

My oh has been too one of his seminars (SP?) and said he was amazing.

Im now reading his second book be the pack leader.

I dont think his theories are outdated either if they work to me its not outdated and i think they work, as i say others dont agree so go for another way thats up too them.

xXxshelly_stanliexXx wrote:I dont think his theories are outdated either if they work to me its not outdated and i think they work, as i say others dont agree so go for another way thats up too them.

Using a check chain 'works', but it's still outdated. Smacking 'works' but it's outdated.

Caryll wrote:

xXxshelly_stanliexXx wrote:I dont think his theories are outdated either if they work to me its not outdated and i think they work, as i say others dont agree so go for another way thats up too them.

Using a check chain 'works', but it's still outdated. Smacking 'works' but it's outdated.

My point is thou just because something is outdated it dosnt mean it dosnt work.

I like his methods and think he does alot for dogs. rehibilitating them and also does alot for the "pit bull".

as i say my opinion each too there own.

I'm not particularly arguing with you. I agree that he has a way with certain dogs & that he's done a lot for the reputation of the APBT. I also agree that he loves dogs.

I have two problems with him. One is that he isn't honest about the methods he uses - he doesn't tell people that he's used prong or shock collars, for example, neither does he tell them that he has kicked a dog into submission (and yes, I know you say that he 'taps' dogs with his foot, but I've seen video evidence of him literally lifting a dog off its feet with a kick), or punched the dog in the head off camera (verified by the cameraman afterwards). The other is that his training methods are based on the 'Alpha' or 'Pack Leader' system which has largely been proved to be false, even by the guy who first came up with it.

We all have to move with the times, and new training methods that use positive reinforcement are far more effective and kinder.

As far as I'm concerned it is speculation until someone can show me otherwise - punching a dog in the head?!

The article above doesn't say the pack leader theory is wrong but that the leader is naturally selected by being the parent rather than fighting for the position. As I said above, the techniques that I have seen Cesar use are only similar to the corrections that that pack leader/parent would make. That pack leader/parent wouldn't be giving treats - not to say that I disagree with treats!

J&L wrote:As far as I'm concerned it is speculation until someone can show me otherwise - punching a dog in the head?!

The article above doesn't say the pack leader theory is wrong but that the leader is naturally selected by being the parent rather than fighting for the position. As I said above, the techniques that I have seen Cesar use are only similar to the corrections that that pack leader/parent would make. That pack leader/parent wouldn't be giving treats - not to say that I disagree with treats!

I realise that, but surely it's far better to get a dog to obey you because it wants to, nit because otherwise it'll get jerked/kicked/hit? As for the same sort of things that a pack will do, I'm afraid the problem there is that we are not dogs, and our dogs know that. They know that we are different, and we must, therefore, behave differently. A bitch will give an unruly pup a shake by grabbing the scruff of its neck, but that isn't the sort of thing a human should be doing to a pup. Pups will play together by biting each other, but we don't want that to happen with humans. The whole idea of a human being Alpha, or pack leader, is fundamentally wrong, and the guy who invented the term as far as dog training goes admits that.

As to the punch, I can't find it on youtube now, it must have been withdrawn by CM's people, but it was there, I saw it myself. If I remember rightly it was a large dog (doberman or something similar) that was barking at CM. As CM's hand drew back in a fist the director shouts "cut", but the camera man kept filming & a punch to the head followed.

xXxshelly_stanliexXx wrote:

Caryll wrote:
Using a check chain 'works', but it's still outdated. Smacking 'works' but it's outdated.

My point is thou just because something is outdated it dosnt mean it dosnt work.

If done properly positive punishment works. But it's cruel and doesn't give you the same relationship with your dog as with positive training, and the side effects are unpredictable at best. Why be cruel when you can get better results if you don't? I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me.

Aniemother wrote:

xXxshelly_stanliexXx wrote:

Caryll wrote:
Using a check chain 'works', but it's still outdated. Smacking 'works' but it's outdated.

My point is thou just because something is outdated it dosnt mean it dosnt work.

If done properly positive punishment works. But it's cruel and doesn't give you the same relationship with your dog as with positive training, and the side effects are unpredictable at best. Why be cruel when you can get better results if you don't? I'm sorry, but it makes no sense to me.

Me neither.

Punching a dog in the head?! I think if you did that to a Stafford, you'd either break your hand, or loose your hand...=/

Now, check chain, yes are outdated but they do work, when used properly and there is a space there for non-abusive methods. Because using a check chain does not automatically make you cruel.
Smacking on the other hand, I don't think that works and yeah, that automatically makes you cruel, as well as insensitive.

Only thing I've ever done with my hand to Junior is the "bite" as shown by Cesar. Along with the "finger touch" and the hiss. That works MARVELS, just the vocal his on its own.

I don't punish, I correct.
My attitude is "Okay, you didn't do it right this time, but look, here, try again.
YAAY! You did it right! Have love and fun!"

And I end my training on that.
How I train humans though....totally different method. XDD Ask my brothers XDD

Skullkandi wrote:Because using a check chain does not automatically make you cruel.

No, but if used wrongly it can be very cruel indeed.

Skullkandi wrote:How I train humans though....totally different method. XDD Ask my brothers XDD

Never thrown a child so far in all my life, Caryll XDD

Skullkandi wrote:Never thrown a child so far in all my life, Caryll XDD