Cesar millan

Hi guys, I've been doing a lot off reading on puppy training and I've seen so many people slag cesar millans training methods. now can someone fill me in with why this is? I have obviously missed something

Hello! The Cesar Millan topic is one that has come up a few times on the forum, debates can occasionally get a little heated with differing opinions, just to pre warn!

Having studied dog behaviour for the last few years my opinion is as follows; science has taken us so much further than Cesar Millan's theories, and these theories of his were based on a study on wolves that were kept in captivity and not in their family social structure. Wolves don't even behave in the way that Cesar Millan would have you believe, let alone dogs who are far removed. There's more about that here
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t51162-leader-of-the-pack?highlight=pack+theory

However, pack theory aside (I do very much believe in boundaries and structure within human/canine interactions) Cesar Millan uses electric shock collars, as well as prong collars to "train" his dog. So, not only do his theories have no basis, he physically hurts dogs to scare them into doing what he wants, see here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl4sDHQ2uV8

And here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGuuQO54hPo

Dogs do need to understand boundaries of they will just run riot; however, they also need to know which behaviours are GOOD and should be repeated. I've never seen Cesar Millan use reward. You'd be much better off with the likes of Patricia McConnell for reading, or Victoria Stilwell for TV watching.

Now, the argument often goes that bull breeds, or generally aggressive dogs, don't respond to positive reinforcement and need to be bullied into submission. That's a load of cr*p. I've worked with fighting dogs, trained attack dogs, dogs from cruelty case backgrounds; the LAST thing i'm going to do is "battle" with them, or threaten them. His methods are aversive and based on fear, using punishment to get the dog to do what you want, lazy "training." I prefer to work WITH my dog (who would have previously been described as "red zone" by Millan) we're a team and she follows my commands because she trusts me, and she wants to. It works for us

I personally don't use his training methods (as have mine in place already & seem to be working well) but I think he's brilliant.

Wow I didn't realise this, I just remember watching him on tv many years ago and my mum gave me one off his books on Friday but I didn't know he was nasty with his training. So far Skye sits stays and is beginning to get better at come so ill keep at it and read up about the 2 names mentioned and she goes to puppy classes hopedully in 3 weeks

CM is not my cup of tea I feel he uses fear to get results, not good IMHO xx

No defo don't want the poor dogs being scared.

Having not known much about him i did watch some of his last show about rehoming rescues and while there were some useful insights the overall message was being a dominant pack leader and fear and dominance certainly doesnt work with Ledger it puts him on edge he responds to positive training as frustrating as that can be for me when he hangs off my parents conservatory door

Some vids on you tube showing the fear in some of the dogs and the signs that they are displaying that CM doesnt read before they attack him. His 'kick' or touch control as he calls it makes me feel sick let alone the shock and prong collars

CM not my cup of tea either, i don't like this methods which including kicking dogs, absolutely no need for this at all.

See I got the impression that oh he has a tv show so he must be good but zapper collars and kicking isn't rite. I just hope the stuff I learn in the KC good citizen puppy classes will be good

Just had time to watch some off that YouTube video.. The guys is nasty and caused aggression on a few off the dogs rather than calm them down and the other dogs were clearly scared too.

Positive reinforcement training all the way for me   

That's his problem, he doesn't seem to read dogs at all, if I saw a dog displaying the body language that the lab was I would back away immediately, no wonder he's been bitten so many times.

i'm not sure about all the hate towards Cesar millan becasue most of the time hes working with problem dogs (which would end up getting put down did you see that lab?, which their owners couldn't be bothered to train them right... i never recommends his training to someone with an pup. dog that been bought up badly need to know their place!! thanks god i'm an good owner!! becasue if i had to do the stuff he does that it would make me an bad owner if i had too!!

i can remember one show of him the dog was problem becasue he got walk around the block for 10 mins 2/3 time an week he went around said that not good enough so they change it to 2 walks a day for hour a day pulling them on their bikes and the dog change and was an happy dog and he never kick or hit just change the owner.. so he not all bad at times

I agree that his focus on exercise and stimulation is good and positive, but that's as far as it goes for me. I've worked with dangerous dogs from poor upbringings for years and have never had the need to "put them in their place." Behaviour is so much more complex than that, especially considering such a high percentage of aggression or reactivity is fear based, using dominance base techniques would be totally counter productive and will only break the bond with the dog further. Many of the dogs that I've worked with have attacked humans or other animals, I've only found operant conditioning, positive reinforcement and general boundaries to be helpful in rehab. I remember a husky that I was trying to bring round, one of the CM fans that worked at the kennels "alpha rolled" him for snapping (out of fear) whilst on the lead with me and it took weeks to build that bond back up. I will never use his "techniques."

if an dog was biting you would do nothing? your action at that moment wil decide if the will get that dog put down or not, so you have to put that dog in it's place, i'm not talking about pup here i'm talking about an adult dog, i'm also not saying giving that dog an beating.

if an dog thinks is ok to bite without proper punishment then it will bite again at some point, that why they get put down becasue no one can be bothered to train them right.

I've only ever been bitten twice, once by a dog that had eaten illegal substances and lived in a crack den, and once by a dog that had literally lost her mind after years in kennels. Both unavoidable and not showing "normal" behaviours. Didn't hurt either of them to stop the behaviour, used verbals command and leads to get them under control and back in their kennels. In the severe attacks that I had to assist with we did have to use things like hose pipes, graspers and breaking sticks but these were trained dogs, not your usual reactive pets.

When working with aggressive dogs, the key is to not get bitten, so I would read their body language clearly and focus on that, that lab was showing that he was very uncomfortable, by confronting that you result in a battle, that's not training. The last severely food aggressive dog that I worked with with a 50kg Rottweiler/Great Dane crossbreed. I had to figure out how to communicate with him in a way which he could understand and used obedience to do this, as well as clear boundaries and instructions around food, after the initial testing he never growled at me around food again. CM creates problems, IMO.

It's never a one size fits all, but even if you did have to use aversive techniques, I don't know any decent trainer that would use kicking/touching/punching etc as this just causes a negative association with you and your hand/foot being near the dog in question. Biscuit is highly reactive/aggressive, if I booted her every time she barked or lunged at a man or dog she'd associate something bad with them and carry out the behaviour more, so instead I give her something good when she sees the reactive stimulus, but before she has reacted, basic conditioning really, then she gets excited to see the stimulus because she knows something good is coming. It's harder work, yes, but much more humane x

i can remember being around my friends house who had an french bulldog and rottie, the rottie used to scared me really bad i seen what he did well once he wasn't happy at me so i give him an message over then head then he sat so i started on the back   yea i'm good with the hands   he was well calm my friend who sat next to me got up and dog jump bite him on his hand and you could see through it after that i never went around!! the owner didn't do anything blame my friend for getting up to fast after that he end up biting about 10 other people

My own methods seem to work fine

Wasn't going to comment on this one as its such an emotive thread. However, Having watched a lot of his programmes whilst in the USA, a lot of what he does works, but, I would never condone cruelty as a control measure.

Where he works the dogs by associating with calm dogs etc really does work but I also agree with Rach in that watching body language works so much better than dominance. Stop it before it happens and reward.

My Flo is not perfect, however, I can see after 2 years with her; when she is likely to go. I also believe that there is a hierarchy with dogs, not a pack thing but a natural order that will occur. This is also borne out with Flo's refusal to walk with my youngest son. She knows he will give in and so wins every time, to my knowledge she has no reason not to walk with him !, equally I have seen this with my brother-laws bloodhounds where she slots in between the elder and younger one.

I would never advocate any cruel treatment but will agree with some of his techniques.

I loooove rotti's, I'd have one if I had the space, but they aren't an easy breed at all. The thing is some dogs do seemingly just randomly "attack", I lost count of the times the kennel staff said my dogs went for them "for no reason" but again that's where these dominance techniques fail, because they discipline their warning signs, and that's where you get a "flash bite" that apparently comes out of nowhere. I had a lovely rotti boy called Denzil who was just the sweetest thing, just to roll over and over until I have him a tummy rub lol, took me weeks to get to that point. Someone saw me handling him and assumed that he was "cured" and walked straight into his kennel, upright and directly at him. He lost it and flew at her and was put to sleep, now I'm not saying that was a dog that should have been sent out to the public as he needed very careful handling, as Biscuit did, but just another case of not reading body language.

Totally agree Ian, I do love how much he does for Pit Bulls etc, and his own dogs do look happy, but for me the bad outweighs the good, I've read all of his books to gain a deeper insight but there's just no basis behind it. What I like about science based trainers is that they can provide up to date research through a variety of species and they continue to learn, where as CM seems to be stuck in the dark ages, I've only been learning for a few years and training had progressed even since then!