Vaccination

I'm putting this in general chat rather than medical as I know not everyone goes there.

What do you all do about vaccinations? I'm deep into trying to decide on whether or not to get the Lepto 4 vacc done and am getting sidetracked into reading all the different views on all the core vaccinations. The more I read, the more I'm not sure whether to do any, even 3/4 yearly, on the basis that they most probably have life cover and even if they don't the risks of them catching anything, given where we go, are small. It seems the risks of overvaccinating at (according to some schools of thought) greater than those of not vaccinating at all. I also can't see that a titer test has a huge validity (rabies for legal reasons apart).

I'm increasingly not convinced by the need for and safety of the Lepto 4. I will have one final chat to the vet when I see him for Nola's medication review in a couple of weeks, but it does seem to be a high risk vaccine for a very, very, very small risk of coming into contact with Lepto, and then it's fingers crossed that it's one of those 4 strains.

Has anyone else looked into this and come to different or the same conclusions? Gilly?

Lepto 4 - contentious to say the least!

I have 3 vet contacts - two are friends & one is the vet I would always use. All recommend Lepto vaccines IF there's a local risk (either where you live or where you intend to visit). It's a tough one. There have been many 'related' but unsubstantiated reports of bad effects from Lepto 4, and that's the problem, they ARE unsubstantiated. No causal link has been PROVED.  That's not to say they aren't linked, just that a link hasn't been proved.

Personally, I would get the vaccine in my area because a) there are a lot of water courses in Northampton, together with a known rat problem and b) a human died of Weil's disease near here last year. I know the human strain is different to the canine strain, but if there is one, there's likely to be the other.

However, a friend whose dog had Lepto 4 in September, us currently waiting for results of tests for Lymphoma. Is it linked? I don't know, but it could change my mind about the Lepto jabs.

Core vaccines. I will always get the main puppy core vaccines, followed by the first annual booster. After that, it's a lottery. Titre tests only tell you if your pet has been in contact with the disease & is therefore producing antibodies. If no contact, the test may show that vaccination is necessary when it may not be.

I am reasonably happy with 3 yearly jabs, but would probably stop after the third or fourth tri-annual booster.

My very small contribution wrt lepto 2 vs 4 :

Nifty was vaccinated directly with lepto 4, never the slightest effect even after boosters.
Opium was vaccinated with lepto 2 by breeders who were wary of all the bad press. My vet advised me to go for lepto 4 as I have stream at bottom of my property, lots of various rodents (including rats), we get out and about a fair bit, etc. I have revaccinated her (double) with lepto 4 and not the slightest reaction after vaccinations.

We wander about and border-hop a fair bit so vaccinations are peace of mind. Nifty is 21 months old so has only had the yearly boosters once.
Will I continue to vaccinate both yearly ? Probably.
It’s the same arguments with the horses and my retired ones who don’t leave home but who are covered in case of epidemics (currently EVH a big problem in our area).

The more I look into the Lepto 4 question, the more I'm moving away from it. Clearly, it's not always easy to get unbiased opinions and hard evidence is thin on the ground. From what I'm reading, though, the Lepto jab probably doesn't even cover the dog for a year and can in fact mask an infection by reducing the symptoms. Also, we are not in a high risk area, either here or in France.

Aside the thorny question of reactions to the Lepto vacc, I'm generally against using any chemicals that aren't needed. If they are genuinely needed then fine, but just because the manufacturer/vet says so isn't good enough, especially when both groups are going against guidelines in still pushing other core vaccs on an annual basis.

It's a bit like vets pushing the 'Science Diet' food, which is less good quality that others on the market and vastly expensive. I personally feel vets should be obliged to state what cut they get from the products they promote, and should also give you alternatives. I'm informed and confident enough to say no but I know many who aren't, and it's not right.

I think any veterinary practice that still pushes for annual core vaccines should be ashamed of themselves as they are flying in the face of PROVEN guidelines!

Whilst a dog MAY be immune for life after the first puppy jabs & first annual booster, there is no way of actually testing that that's the case.

I well remember the dread of distemper, and later of parvovirus, & the instance of both of these have been greatly reduced through vaccines.

The Lepto jab has always been contentious, and if you are in a low risk area I, personally, would advise against it.

Don't wory, Gilly, I'm not saying never vaccinate. I think my plan is to do titer tests for the core vaccines on, say, year 4 to see what is needed. You can't titer test for the Lepto vaccine, I don't think, but you can for the others. As I say, I'm happy with doing things that are needed but not just because. And I'd always get puppy plus first year core vaccs done.

But titre testing won't tell you definitely if your dog's immune. All it does is show if your dog has been exposed to the virus/bacteria you have vaccinated against & whether it has set up a response.

If your dog hasn't been exposed then the immune system may still 'remember' the disease, but won't have set up a response to it, so it won't show in the blood. Therefore, you may still be vaccinating when your dog is already immune. Do you see what I mean? Titre testing is not the way forward, independent research into the 'life' of the vaccine must continue, and vets must keep up to date with the findings.

But apart from lepto, the core vaccines are live-attenuated vaccines so the dog gets a small dose of a weakened form of the disease to which it then develops a response by producing antibodies, which are long lived. So in theory the dog that has been vaccinated will have been exposed without having had it. And that's then how the titer test works, by assessing that the antibodies are still there.

Lepto is different, because it's a bacterial rather than viral disease, and the vaccinations are therefore inactivated and the response short lived.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/769590/_281595-v6-VMD_Position_paper_on_Authorised_Vaccination_Scedules_for_Dogs.pdf

It's not as simple as that. The antibodies don't stay in the blood stream, but are 'remembered' so that they are produced rapidly if contact with the virus is made. These 'remembered' antibodies-to-be are not in the blood stream & so do not show on a titre test.

I know that doesn't apply to lepto.

Hi. We have a 6yr old rescue Staffy bitch. After reading up on vaccinations ( manufactor and world Vetinary organisation advice) we decided to have our girl vacinated every 3yrs as per reccomendations. We rang around several vet practices before finding one that followed these guidelines as unless you are following your vets advice your pet insurance is null and void. Sadly Alot of vets are using yearly vacs as 'a cash cow' in our opinion. We do have the Lepto every year as we walk her in countryside most days. Our take on vacs is, would you have your children vaccinated every year?

Old woman wrote:Sadly Alot of vets are using yearly vacs as 'a cash cow' in our opinion.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

Old woman wrote: We do have the Lepto every year as we walk her in countryside most days. Our take on vacs is, would you have your children vaccinated every year?

The Lepto jab is the really contentious one, especially Lepto4, as there have been unsubstantiated side effects. I don't dismiss these side effects, but would point out that very few have been definitely linked to the vaccine.

I had my two children vaccinated as babies/young children, but the animal vaccines are slightly different. There has, at yet, been no absolute proof that they last more than 4 or 5 years, although the thoughts are that they probably do.

It's that 'probably' that sways me to have the vaccines every three years as per the WSAVA advice.