PIT BULL...

First topic message reminder :

Yesterday I met a chap and his lovely staff.I asked him why he had a muzzle.He told me that 10 dogs including his one were taken from the local area(Hereford) and labelled pit bull type.He told me that his dogs dad is kc reg and his mum is a staffy with no papers.He then told me he was shocked how he was treated and had to pay to get the dog back.He also told me that none of the other owners had challenged the police to get their dogs back.They were put down!

The dog was a lovely staffy who blue with white patches.The dog was 19 inches tall and because of this he was labelled pit bull type.The dog looked just like a normal staffy and was soft as muck.

The police ordered the man to muzzle the dog at all times when in a public place and to be kept on a lead.
They also neutered the dog and tattooed a number on him.

I'm now getting worried that the same might happen to me.Tilly was 19" tall when last measured.Please advise me.

I could not be with out my dog.

Marty wrote:One thing i dont understand is this You obtain a pup, you see both parents and you recieve a 5 generation pedigree from the KC that registers your dog as being pedigree and to standard when the dog is approx 12 to 16 weeks old.

How can they register it if after 10 months it no longer fits the standard no one pops round and takes the KC papers off you if your dog is to tall or to small, so what are the papers worth really, the value of the dog is the dog himself when mature and within standard surely

A registered pedigree dog does not guarantee that it is perfect. If a pup has parents which are registered with the kennel club the that pup is eligible to be registered also. How on earth could it be done any other way? You would end up not being able to register a pup until it has stopped growing, at around 18 months to 2 years! In that case you couldn't show it or breed from it until then.

All responsible breeders will mate a bitch with a dog that compliments her virtues & corrects her faults. However, we are dealing with mother nature, and there will always be pups from the litter that are not good examples of the breed, or are not good enough to be shown - that's just the nature of breeding!

Yeah i totally agree Caryll the problem with our breed is unfortunately its over bred by the under qualified, someone could breed 2 18" dogs end up with a 19" dog and someone else would think its great and breed off that in 10 years the Stafford could resemble a Great Dane.

But as you say who else can it be controlled and managed,but if the Kennel club takes the money it must have some responsibility along with the breeders to maintain the standard or saying that they have allowed the British bull dog to be destroyed so maybe not

Yes, but the kennel club are very aware of the problems and are taking steps to improve things.

However, they cannot measure every dog that is to be registered. It's down to the judges to penalise over-sized dogs so that breeders do their best to breed the correct size. However, as I said, you'll get all sorts in a litter - that can't be helped. It's nature.

there are many staffies round my way that are easy 18 to 20 plus inches tall.mine are 16 nd 1/2 inches tall and im told mine are small by these other people ..
that said ,the breeder of my leo told me he had a dog in a litter that was 19 inches tall ,rest of litter was between 15 amd 16 inches tall ..and he's shown at crufts and shows round the country .

what about the dogs that doesn't goto show but keep getting registered. i think one of these thing you just cant force because it will cost to much

Yeah but that means only show dogs are being checked and that's a small percentage i would assume, and also the cream of the crop, so that would be a misleading representation of the none show dogs

markeB wrote:there are many staffies round my way that are easy 18 to 20 plus inches tall.mine are 16 nd 1/2 inches tall and im told mine are small by these other people ..
that said ,the breeder of my leo told me he had a dog in a litter that was 19 inches tall ,rest of litter was between 15 amd 16 inches tall ..and he's shown at crufts and shows round the country .

which proves Caryll's point there's always one in a litter bigger or smaller, i thought i made a good point to debate but i would always be guided by Caryll as she's shown dogs and has 1st hand experience, i don't know the answers but the current system is poor effectively i could start a registration scheme take loads of money off every dog owner put a few shows on see only the best dogs that fit standard and say yes i'm doing a great job all those dogs a perfect in the mean time behind the show ring 3 20" dogs walk past that will never be shown but probably bred but as long as they pay into my scheme that's ok , but eventually if there allowed to register there will be more 20" dogs walking about.

i think they need to reform their databace wich would be pretty easy to do, if they dont that enter any type of show should be drop down to a pet registered but have the chance to move back to a Kc regsitered if they enter a show.

Yeah not a bad idea or be pet registered and if you want to be KC reg without showing, get a vet or qualified breeder to say the dog meets standard when its grown

harvey is a full staff but he isn't kc registered and he is 18.5" tall and weighs at the minute 19kg and is 5 months old, however he is chipped and insured as a staff though

[quote="markeB"]

Amipopzzz wrote:I just measured Henry he's approx 13'' tall and weighs in at 16.7kg!
Missy is approx 9 and half inch and 13.3kG..

13 inches and 9 nd 1/2 inches tall ??? you sure your measuring right ????

my dog Leo and my bitch Ellie are 16 nd 1/2 inches tall ,from ground to hight between shoulder blades ..


Not measured them properly thanks for the guide Steve! i shall try another day, but to be 100% honest i dont really give a sugar, mine havent got papers, i have no intention of breeding them, they are family pets! My dogs love my little boy and all his friends they are loving affectionate companions.

Unwittingly we fall into trying to defend our dogs, we shouldn't HAVE to =D
xx

Marty wrote:Yeah but that means only show dogs are being checked and that's a small percentage i would assume, and also the cream of the crop, so that would be a misleading representation of the none show dogs

Staffords are not measured in the show ring. A judge will look at the dog as a whole & the first thing he will do is decide whether the dog has 'breed type'. If it does, he will look it over & assess its faults/virtues. One of those faults may be that, in the judge's opinion, it is oversized, but the resy of the dog is a really good, well-proportioned staff with loads of 'breed type'. He may decide that the dog's height is outweighed by its other positive virtues & place the dog. There's nothing wrong with that. A half inch, or even an inch over standard isn't penalised if the overall dog is of excellent standard.

markeB wrote:the breeder of my leo told me he had a dog in a litter that was 19 inches tall ,rest of litter was between 15 amd 16 inches tall ..and he's shown at crufts and shows round the country .

As I say, if the dog has excellent breed type & many positive virtues its height will be of minor consideration as long as it's in proportion.

Marty wrote:the current system is poor effectively i could start a registration scheme take loads of money off every dog owner put a few shows on see only the best dogs that fit standard and say yes i'm doing a great job all those dogs a perfect in the mean time behind the show ring 3 20" dogs walk past that will never be shown but probably bred but as long as they pay into my scheme that's ok , but eventually if there allowed to register there will be more 20" dogs walking about.

It's far more complicated than that. The Kennel Club is a huge organisation & for you to start up a registration system of your own would take many years & a lot of money before you even started to break even!

Responsible breeders breed to the standard - there will always be back yard breeders (which is effectively what you're talking about here) and no amount of change the kennel club introduces will change that.

Marty wrote:Yeah not a bad idea or be pet registered and if you want to be KC reg without showing, get a vet or qualified breeder to say the dog meets standard when its grown

If you're not going to show it, then the only reason you'd want it registered is to breed. Back Yard Breeders. Samr problem, different perspective.

Bring back dog licenses

Great debate here guys !!!!!!
The trouble is as with anything there are always people out there who are willing to cheat and change to suit when all said and done its rubbish breeding and exploiting the breed spoiling it for the ones who care very much about preserving it.
Ive seen the taller than standard dogs shown in limit and open shows but never at championship level.
I think having someone look at your dog and assessing it when it matures is a great idea but wouldnt trust a vet they know nothing of the make up of a stafford really.
I know when dogs get seized a stafford champ judge is invited to determin the breed seized.
I think you will have nothing to worry about if you dont aggrivate your neighbours, someone once said to me if you dont bring attention to your dog your dog wont bring attention to you. Forget the leather harnesses they really send out the wrong message

Charlie is massive and would most definitely fall under type and will do so even more when he's mature, but I couldn't care less. He's incredibly well trained and behaved, he loves other dogs and people, he doesn't have an ounce of aggression in him and he has a normal collar and harness. As Steve said, the police simply do not have the time or resources to go around looking for dogs that fall under type. As long as your dog is well behaved and under control at all times, you have nothing to worry about

I won't be responsible for adding to the numbers Samsons working bits are in the cupboard next to the pickled onions, hope the wife gets the right ones on the ploughmans lunch

I did 3 serious posts in a row on this thread that's a record for me

Serious again the answer is only good quality breeding but its not possible to control that, so its down to the buyer to walk away from lesser dogs and people would stop breeding them, but how does the average person know a lesser dog at 8 weeks old?

Marty wrote:I won't be responsible for adding to the numbers Samsons working bits are in the cupboard next to the pickled onions, hope the wife gets the right ones on the ploughmans lunch

I did 3 serious posts in a row on this thread that's a record for me

Serious again the answer is only good quality breeding but its not possible to control that, so its down to the buyer to walk away from lesser dogs and people would stop breeding them, but how does the average person know a lesser dog at 8 weeks old?

brill post marty especially the onions
seriously when anyone comes on here looking to buy a puppy we can all steer them in the right direction thats all we can do and research is the key to looking

kennel club must have a datebase of staffy i'm sure with abit of money they could change it, everything must be on computer or on the net everyone get a kennel club number if that number dont enter a show it move to a pet regsiter & only way you can get a kc reg paper again if you enter your dog in a show or goto a staffordshire bull terrier club.

Kennel club paper meet the standards

pets club or whatever i dont have a clue to call

this is my point if gentleman jim was 17.5 or watever and he was the first champion who gave the kennal club permission to lower that standard to 16" i believe a true stafford should look in proportion all over wether it be 12" or 20" you know wen youve got a xbreed, me and the breeder i got rocky off has got some stunning dogs and were forever on the phone... rocky is about 16 " at 6 months ish but the weight range just wouldnt tally up ect, so hes gonna fill out out to look top dog, his dad was 15.5" and his mum was 15" as wer his grandparents..

The kennel club do hold all the information about kc registered dogs now wether they are good enough to be bred from is another story, Im very biased and I like mine to be correct to the standard thats not to say I dont like all dogs cause I do but if Im looking to part with money to buy a pup then I want to know I have a good example.
If byb have no-one to buy there pups they will move on to another source to make money.
They do have something similar in showing that when your dog is entered in shows and wins classes it gains points when the dog gets a certain amount the kennel club then award it the stud book number.
I think the kc could then do more and the better the dog goes maybe attach a colour code sceme to that dog?
But there is only a few that like showing so what can be done for them that dont????
Its a minefeild and so open to abuse there must be a way to sort the future of the breed out and yes a true stafford is balanced all over and that is shape,size,weight,characteristics,heart and soul

true

gem wrote:Great debate here guys !!!!!!
The trouble is as with anything there are always people out there who are willing to cheat and change to suit when all said and done its rubbish breeding and exploiting the breed spoiling it for the ones who care very much about preserving it.
Ive seen the taller than standard dogs shown in limit and open shows but never at championship level.
I think having someone look at your dog and assessing it when it matures is a great idea but wouldnt trust a vet they know nothing of the make up of a stafford really.
I know when dogs get seized a stafford champ judge is invited to determin the breed seized.
I think you will have nothing to worry about if you dont aggrivate your neighbours, someone once said to me if you dont bring attention to your dog your dog wont bring attention to you. Forget the leather harnesses they really send out the wrong message

Good post, gem.

Marty wrote:

but how does the average person know a lesser dog at 8 weeks old?

Even experienced breeders can get it wrong at 8 weeks old! I knew a top breeder back in the '80s that sold a 'runt' which went on to become a champion!

dkay72 wrote:this is my point if gentleman jim was 17.5 or watever and he was the first champion who gave the kennal club permission to lower that standard to 16" i believe a true stafford should look in proportion all over wether it be 12" or 20"

The breed society & the kennel club would have been responsible for this. The breed society is the go-between for all the staffy owners/breeders and the KC, and if I remember correctly the standard was lowered because so many dogs were being bred way over the height limit! There were staffs that were over 22" tall & looked more like mastiffs! If they get too big they lose that indefinable 'breed type'.

I think my idea would put stop to it all but i'm sure kennel club willn't change! because they like to live in the stoneage

Steve wrote:I think my idea would put stop to it all but i'm sure kennel club willn't change! because they like to live in the stoneage

It would just take too much time & money to do it! I rarely defend the KC, but they register 1000's of dogs a month & it just couldn't be done without raising the registration fees which would be extremely unpopular!

that what you have a computer that type of thing dont take long anymore.

It couldn't be done totally with computers. You will always have the 'human element' - queries & arguments about who's on the 'pet register' & who's on the 'full register'.

It wouldn't stop indiscriminate breeding because the back yard breeders couldn't give a toss whether their dogs are shown or not - if they're registered they'll charge extra, if they're not...........who cares?

Neither will it stop oversized dogs, as the KC wouldn't have the facilities to measure the height of every dog on the full register. The height of a staff in the standard is a guideline only & if a dog is over (or indeed under) the height it is considered a minor fault, all other things being equal.

Caryll wrote:It couldn't be done totally with computers. You will always have the 'human element' - queries & arguments about who's on the 'pet register' & who's on the 'full register'.

It wouldn't stop indiscriminate breeding because the back yard breeders couldn't give a toss whether their dogs are shown or not - if they're registered they'll charge extra, if they're not...........who cares?

Neither will it stop oversized dogs, as the KC wouldn't have the facilities to measure the height of every dog on the full register. The height of a staff in the standard is a guideline only & if a dog is over (or indeed under) the height it is considered a minor fault, all other things being equal.

However in the show ring its a minor fault walking the street it could be a death sentence for the dog because the Police see the minor fault as a different breed its a mine field and i don't think there is an easy answer

No, there's no easy answer, other than trying to educate people (especially breeders) that bigger is not necessarily better!

I dont think it would take much at all, Dog show have some type pc link and all the information get merge.

the dog that dont show get down graded to pet registered and you cant regstiered pup till you get back to kc registered, i know it willn't stop all but it will stop 20" staffy getting regsitered

No, it wouldn't. All pups will still be registered! They may not be shown & they may be on a 'pet register' but they'll still be bred & registered!

Most people buying a pet stafford won't know anything about 'pet' or 'full' registers & will just see the term "Kennel Club Registered". It wouldn't make any difference to the heights at all.

Caryll wrote:No, there's no easy answer, other than trying to educate people (especially breeders) that bigger is not necessarily better!

that Caryll is the answer good debate solved me thinks now i need a lay down to many serious posts in one day

Caryll wrote:No, it wouldn't. All pups will still be registered! They may not be shown & they may be on a 'pet register' but they'll still be bred & registered!

Most people buying a pet stafford won't know anything about 'pet' or 'full' registers & will just see the term "Kennel Club Registered". It wouldn't make any difference to the heights at all.

that why people are getting away with it. becasue there nothing in place to stop them doing it & my way would to stop it.

or maybe kennel club dont want to stop it becasue they will make less money and that would be a sad state of offair.

But they would make MORE money because they would charge for dogs to be transferred from the pet register to the full register (they don't do anything for nothing!). Steve, it just couldn't work.

well if that the case what is the point of the kennel club it's clearly they dont care about breeds!

why would it cost money to tranfer a dog to a pet regsiter? the website/database should do auto tranfer if it was program proper.

But that wouldn't get rid of the over sized dogs!

Caryll wrote:No, there's no easy answer, other than trying to educate people (especially breeders) that bigger is not necessarily better!

And also anyone who asks about buying a puppy encourage them to raise the bar and buy from a reputable breeder
(could we give breeders names if we know of a litter out there when someone asks) and not buy from byb (would that be allowed)
Does no-one like my colour coded idea surely that wouldnt cost the earth?

I like the idea, but it still wouldn't stop the oversized staffs, because the ordinary buyer wouldn't have a clue!

It would if they dont goto club show their dogs get down graded to an pet regsitered list and if your dog was on a pet regsitered list you cant regsitered pups that will stop 20" getting kc papers

good personal views, but the likes of joe public like us havnt a hope in the world to change anything or ask the kc to keep things as there are ...WE ARE NOBODYS...

unfortunately this is happening. The police can seize your dog under the BSL law (Breed Specific Legislation). It is so wrong as no dog should be judged by its breed.
If you are on facebook have a look at this link https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_104691646288674&ap=1
It is someone who has had his staffie seized by the police and is still fighting to get him back.
This link is for a petition to stop BSL http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/stop-bsl-now.html

Steve wrote:It would if they dont goto club show their dogs get down graded to an pet regsitered list and if your dog was on a pet regsitered list you cant regsitered pups that will stop 20" getting kc papers

Back yard breeders will still breed oversized dogs - they won't care if they're on a pet register, they'll just say "Kennel Club Registered" and they'll be telling the truth!

dkay72 wrote:good personal views, but the likes of joe public like us havnt a hope in the world to change anything or ask the kc to keep things as there are ...WE ARE NOBODYS...

Not quite true - the more people we, as a forum and as individuals, educate, the more people will understand the need for regulation and careful breeding. We have to keep pointing individuals the right way..........if we each educate one person, that person may then educate one more person etc, etc.

If we think "we're nobodies" or "what can we do?" then nothing will get done. I know it's an often used cliche, but "Power to the People!"

spuker1 wrote:we live between Worcestershire and Herefordshire, so I think it's still the same area as yours!

Mambo is about 19-20 inches tall but he's chipped as Staffy (although we still think he may be a cross, possibly boxer). he's a rescue and we've got all documents from the shelter confirming that.
if your dog is chipped as Staff, I think there shouldn't be any problem, isn't it enough proof?

Ya she's chipped as a staff x with the details of the rescue.
I just worry still as people do give you some right funny looks and I have been asked is that one of those "cough" Irish Staffs and Is that one of them fighting dogs?How much?...

http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

Go to page 14 guys

http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2009/200903UNGDD01.pdf

Says on here height does not matter ??

Caryll wrote:

Steve wrote:It would if they dont goto club show their dogs get down graded to an pet regsitered list and if your dog was on a pet regsitered list you cant regsitered pups that will stop 20" getting kc papers

Back yard breeders will still breed oversized dogs - they won't care if they're on a pet register, they'll just say "Kennel Club Registered" and they'll be telling the truth!

If changes was made how i said they would be lying because their dogs wouldn't be kc registered. i'm hitting a brick wall i'm giving up now

chloexxx wrote:http://www.acpo.police.uk/documents/uniformed/2009/200903UNGDD01.pdf

Says on here height does not matter ??

height will matter any dogs around 18" to 25" could be sieze type (if it look like a ban breed) like i said a million time if you dont show, fall out with people and so on you will be fine,

At least this gives all the info people need, and what the authorities are looking for..

Think the problem is breeding crosses, like with american bulldogs etc...

It is a real shame about how the law works with dogs at the momemnt and is something that really annoys me, there are many people trying to stop BSL and the more people onboard the more likely something will get changed.

BSL is likely to end, but they haven't decided what will replace it yet. We may end up with something worse!