BAT training for dog on dog aggression (and other things)

I've just come across this new way of approaching dog on dog aggression (fear/defense or whatever reason). It turns on its head the way I have learned to do things in the past, which has been based on providing leadership, distraction, etc. Yes, there is that in there too but this is more based on setting the dog up to choose to do the right thing in a relaxed environment.

Rather than me try and explain it, have a look at the video on this page:

http://grishastewart.com/bat-overview/

To me that looks wonderful! I'm going to look into it much more.

I will have a look at this later when i'm not too tired, Katy does have trouble with fear aggression

A behaviourist that I have previously shadowed really liked BAT and had great results with it, but when I mentioned it to the "positive" community I got completely shot down and told that it was a cruel method that they would not discuss. Why, i'm not entirely sure? It's always confused me!

I think its considered cruel as it uses flooding although I'm not entirely sure. By flooding I mean putting the dog through many situations which it finds scary to try and help the aggression. Where as positive methods slowly build up the dogs confidence from a distance and only moves closer to the thing the dog is fearful of when they're comfortable.

BAT is not considered positive as it's like making a person whos terrified of spiders walk through a room full of them. Although I could be wrong as I haven't read into it.

The method I use is the CARE method (look at careforreactivedogs.com) as it's a fully positive method

I'll look into the CARE method too, thanks Elise.

There's no way that is flooding. Flooding is putting an animal in a stressful situation and letting him get on with it until he realises he's ok. To my mind, this is not flooding as the dog isn't to the point of being stressed, and he also has the length of line that gives him a certain amount of freedom to choose to move away.

Or that's what I'm seeing on the video, anyway. What's shown there is a dog who is well within his comfort zone, with a handler who is very aware of the stress level changes and, when that does happen, finding a positive way of addressing it. I seriously didn't see anything I was uncomfortable with at all.

Coming from the horse training world, which is full of people who are positive only to the point of obsession and, in my mind, to the detriment of good training due to loss of clarity, I'm not overly worried about looking into a method that is considered not 100% positive by some. For me the best training is about understanding how things work and taking elements of various methods to find what suits a particular animal in a particular situation, providing it's fair of course.

I've just taken Chaos to the Heath and (without having read up further, I confess), gave this a go. It was very good. We saw several other dogs, all with us just bumbling about snuffling in open areas (ok, I wasn't snuffling), and he was much more relaxed than he normally is.

We've tried variants of the CARE method and if anything it made him worse. Rapid fire feeding of treats made him more excited, and so more reactive. He gets worried if you ask him to look away so we used 'look at that' with the clicker which is better, but we'd never achieved relaxation, only an ability to eat treats with another dog near.

I don't want to speak too soon but this feels very different and he responded very well. 2 people said how chilled he was.

And definitely not flooding. There was no feeling of being thrown in, of facing fears, of having to deal with something. It was simply that there was no issue because we didn't get closer than he was happy with, and because he had choices and made good ones. The only time he became alert was when he saw a group of others playing and I quietly called him away and threw treats down for him.

I will look into this more, I can't claim to know a method based on a video clip, but so far so good.

I'm glad it's working for you!
I haven't watched the video so I'll have a look now
I'm glad it's not flooding as I'd hate to think of any dog going through such a stressful situation!

Apart from BAT not being '100% positive' have you found the difference between that and methods such as CARE, I'm just curious as I've got a reactive dog myself and would consider trying BAT after I've read up about it. As Rachel said when you ask in a positive group about BAT they completely refuse to talk about it and I've always wondered why (I actually searched on google but nothing came up)

Let me know what you think when you've had a look, Elise. I've had a read through, including the pdfs, and am struggling to see what's so dreadful about it.

Yeah I watched the video and also fail to see whats so bad about it! It seems positive to me!

Although I'm unsure on how it changes the dogs emotional response towards other dogs (thats probably me just being stupid though hahaha), you've read the websites and pdf's so probably understand it a whole lot better than I do!

I think it works in a couple of different ways. The first is that the dog's head is down a lot. Up = alert, down = relaxed. I used to do a lot of head lowering work with horses (in a very nice way!), and it could be incredibly effective. So as well as the distraction of great smells with the occasional handful of treats on the floor to snuffle out, I think there is also an element of that.

Something else I focussed on a lot with horses was choice - setting up a situation whereby the animal has a choice but making sure that the choice you wanted them to make was the easiest. It's always much stronger learning if you work something out and choose to do it yourself than if you are just told what to do, albeit very nicely. Here, within the scope of the line, the dog has choice. I could see Chaos assessing the situation himself and deciding it was ok. There was no element of me deciding for him, other than when the one dog started to come too close when we played 'this way!'.

There's probably an element of handler body language. Because you're doing nothing, just standing with a loose line in your hand, you are even more relaxed.

The big thing, though, is that it avoids the walking in straight lines towards another dog thing, which I think is a large part of the problem for many worried dogs. It's very confrontational. Here, you're not going on a walk, you're wandering about, and that in itself is a much more natural thing to do for a dog. Chaos usually likes to trot on quickly, not pulling but he finds it hard to walk slowly on a walk. Not yesterday, he was just smooching.

I think that's why I find this concept so fascinating, it's making me rethink how I walk the dogs in a human way and how that is perceived by them. For many dogs it's clearly ok, but maybe for some like it's not automatically so.

Interested to see how your journey progresses with BAT will have a look/read when I'm not up to my eyeballs in essays!

I think I wound up on Grisha Stewart's website before from one of your links on this forum Liz - there was a diagram charting the dog's stress levels with triggers (dog at water's edge, toes in water, getting deeper) that was very helpful when out and about on walks with Una. I'm a total beginner but am very interested to see how you get on with BAT.

There's some really useful stuff on there, isn't there Ange?

We did our 2nd walk today, back to the Heath as it's got plenty of open areas so you can avoid narrow tracks and meeting people (and dogs!) unexpectedly. Again he was good and chilled. We saw a lovely staffy cross who walked past quietly on the lead, probably about 10 metres away, a scruffy terrier thing that didn't merit looking up, and a big challenge of a chap getting 3 black labs out of the car next to ours - we waited quietly the other side of the car park. Black labs are a bit of a thing with Chaos as our inconsiderate and lazy neighbours have 2 who are effectively latch key dogs in their garden (never, ever walked but instead have a dog flap. They constantly bark at us if we're in the garden or fields). He saw these dogs, knew they were there but didn't react, he just carried on snuffling. Normally, he would stand still but he'd be focussed with that look in his eye that says 'oh dear, I might need to do something'. It wasn't there at all.

The only reaction was to an off lead spaniel that was charging around barking. I made sure we were a good distance away and had a 'this way' place to go to if needed. Chaos did start moving towards it so I quietly called him, then rewarded him with treats on the ground when he came. He went straight back to relaxed.

Don't worry, you won't get a summary of each day's walk, but I will let you know how we get on as it does feel very promising.

Yes, I downloaded lots of pdfs to read through - really clear explanations of how things work. Your summary of the walks is great, it's one thing watching videos but really good to hear about real life experiences

when I get an hour ill look at this may benefit mia always up for teaching her new things

Liz it's so great to hear how well using BAT is going for you and Chaos, I honestly wouldn't mind if you done an update each day on it, as Ange said it's great to hear first hand experiences on how it's working.

I like how it gives the dog a choice, and also the loose leash. I know from experience when an off lead dog comes running over to me and Milo I pull the lead tight which triggers Milo to react (most probably from the tension coming from me and the fact he's now associated that with a dog being near) so now I try to stay calm and keep the lead loose and it honestly sets him up for success more and he's more likely to have a positive interaction with the other dog.

Just thought I'd mention in case you didn't know- Grisha Stewart has actually written a book on BAT training, although it is pretty pricey!

I'm away this weekend, but more walk updates next week then.

Yes, I spotted the book. She's issuing a revised version that you can download in a few weeks, so I'll wait for that. It's only $9 or something affordable.

Woo
Oh nice thats a great price! Think I'll get one too!

This concept should help many reactive dogs, helping them to make their own choices. I will follow this thread with interest

I've not had a chance to look at the vid yet but it sounds very good from what you've all said. I would also like to read how you get on Liz.

Well if it's not too boring, then...

George took Chaos on a walk today, not to the Heath but to a bit of sea wall that's quiet. There is, though, a house they have to pass that has a dog that is sometimes loose that runs to the gate barking. Ok, I personally wouldn't have done that with him yet but as it turns out it was good. So this dog, a big GSD, came rushing up to the gate and George just loosened the lead to the full, threw some treats on the ground, and Chaos took a brief glance before snuffling his treats, while the GSD stood and barked furiously at him about 7 or 8 metres away. Treats finished, they simply walked off.

I'm not sure how much of this is that Chaos is learning already, and how much is that George was more relaxed, but either way I'll take it!

That sounds encouraging Liz.  Well done Chaos for not reacting and of course George for relaxing the lead. Good start, however, the gate helped also

Yes, except that previously going past that same dog Chaos has got really stressed and lauched himself at the gate. So a big difference

Yes a big difference. It reminds me of a time when Stella was very young. She was attacked and shaken like a rag doll by a GSD. We had to pass the gate of the said dog regularly and Stella just wanted to get at it, with lunges, growls, hackles up, the lot. She never forgot what that dog did to her but never reacted to another dog or even a GSD. Pity the BAT method wasn't around then:D

Still going well, although to be honest we've not seen that many dogs recently. I've been going to different places for a change of scenery and also to start to generalise that it's not just the Heath where we do this, but to make sure we have enough room if we do see another dog we've had to bumble within the woods themselves or in quieter places rather than on narrow tracks, so the opportunities to see others haven't come up so much.

It has been interesting seeing him try to understand the change in how we walk. Away from the clear scents of a path it's much easier for him. On a path I have to keep stopping and encouraging him to snuffle as he will easily go into 'forwards!' mode, in other words as we've always walked till now. It's quite a lot to ask, if you think about it, so I'm really pleased with how he's learning.

This morning we went back to the Heath to keep the dog contact going and there was plenty to see and put relaxing into practise with. Just getting out of the car was a test as there was a chap with two out of control scruffy mongrels - lovely dogs but no control - who was standing in the car park with his dogs charging round annoying everyone else. He'd also just reversed into a poo bin without realising it, which shows his level of awareness of his surroundings!

I did wait a minute to see if he'd go but he didn't, so I got Chaos out quietly and went the other way, hoping his dogs didn't spot us. They were too busy crowding round a friend with her lurchers, who were being very patient, and a lady with an adult and a puppy GSD. She did give him a justified earful as the puppy was clearly intimidated.

But... Chaos was great. He was worried to start off with, his silly little hackle was up as he thought the dogs were coming towards us and he had his worried eyes, so we moved off to a more comfortable distance and I threw some treats on the ground, at which he relaxed immediately.

We then bumbled round for 40 minutes or so, not going very far but doing LOTS of sniffing, and he was chilled the whole time. I saw a friend with her two dogs and Finlay started to come towards us, but Chaos didn't react and Sally called him before he came too close. We also saw a few other dogs just doing their own things and he was chilled.

I think it's time to start getting a little closer. I've not wanted to push it yet as I wanted him to know the score and be able to relax even if worried, and he's shown me he can do that. So not super close, but just a little bit.

Thanks Liz, it's really great to read how Chaos is doing and learn about how you're approaching it.

aww liz im glad as to how chaos is progressing me and mia were at the vet a few months back collie on extending lead.when I first got her she would have gone full throttle she was relatively calm given the collie was practically nose to nose with her. im always despite mias age willing to try new things mia picks up things pretty quickly despite her age .

Grisha's BAT 2 book is now available to download. I've started it already, so far so very good.

We had a couple of really good moments this weekend. We went up to the Heath on Saturday. Walking towards a gateway, we saw two dogs coming towards us. These dogs we knew a little and Chaos didn't react. But, as we were standing watching them, a pair of golden retrievers came up behind. We had a reasonable amount of space, less than we'd been working with but still ok, so I didn't feel the need to take any action, so just left Chaos on his long loose line to work it out. His little hackle started to rise and his eyes just took the edge of his worried look, then he decided it was ok and he relaxed. This for me was huge, he decided himself that things were ok without me needing to do anything. The owners of the dogs we knew called and said how well he'd coped. Proud mummy.

Then George took him past the dog that hurls itself at the gate yesterday and apparently Chaos did nothing. George threw some treats down and praised him.

Given it's always been dogs coming towards him that have caused his anxiety to rise, both of these were fab and things I don't think he'd have cope with without a reaction before.

Loving these updates Liz. Sounds like there's an improvement too. I think it's good to try new training methods. As long as Chaos is responding and you find it's helping him, you can't go wrong:)

Downloaded the book and great to read about Chaos' progress!

I've just got her book & very interested to see how your getting on with Chaos, Liz. There's hope for me & Katy, will start putting it into practise when I've read a bit more

I'm loving reading this, especially the small signals a dog gives to say it wants to opt out of the situation. It's incredibly subtle.

Yes I must admit I'm learning a lot already. Managed to avoid situations today when a saw Katy's signals

I had a real proud mummy moment on Friday. Chaos has been doing so well with our local walks, I decided to see how he would react somewhere we've not been for a while, and somewhere quite difficult. We went to Gosbecks Park, which is a really doggy park on the outskirts of Colchester. I thought leaving it till mid morning might mean it was a bit quieter - it can be packed with off-lead playing dogs - but the carpark was still chokker and I could see there were dogs all over the place.

I thought about leaving it, but decided to find a quiet corner and see how he coped. There was one slightly dodgy moment early on when a little terrier came hurtling over but the owner called it and Chaos got only a little worried, and then settled. We kept to the quieter side of the park and gave any other dogs a wide berth, and people were very good about keeping their dogs away. They could see we were working and one or two called out to say how well he was doing, people who'd never seen us before. How lovely!

We did one circuit and he was fab throughout. By the end, we were passing other dogs at a safe but not miles away distance without having to stare at them, and the last dogs we came across didn't even merit lifting nose from the floor. As we were all going back to the car park, we just followed them and he wasn't bothered, even though they had a collie (on-lead) who kept turning and straining towards us.

Walks on the Heath are still going well too. We've had not real worries. The closest was today when a friend, Lena, who is a dog walker came round the corner with a pack of 6 and a retriever started running towards us. Lena called her back and we did 'this way!'. Chaos had his tail between his legs but he disengaged really quickly then relaxed again.

We're not 100% there, but I'm so pleased at his level of relaxation that I'm not pushing it as far as maybe he could cope with. I feel like we're getting back to where we were before I took him to those classes that knocked his confidence.

Congratulations Liz and Chaos, that's excellent reading and great that Chaos is able to disengage and get back to be relaxed again!

I took my staffie over t the park today, which we often do. There are loads of dogs off of leads, as is mine. We take his ball and he runs and returns it and that's all his interested in. Other dogs approach him and he takes no notice. Today, however, a small dog went for his ball and picked it up. My dog turned on this dog and pretty much had it in his mouth. My partner managed to separate the dogs by opening our staffies mouth, he then immediately knew what he had done wrong and has been disciplined for that. However, he is not a violent dog and never takes any notice of other dogs and if he does wander he returns on my command. This was a complete shock to me, but he did not want that dog touching his ball. I would like to express also that the other dogs owner had no control over their dog at all and were trying to call it back at a large distance and the dog approached my dogs ball! The other dog was okay, despite a small bite. I don't know what to do to avoid this happening again? Has anyone experienced this before? Any advice would be appreciated.

Hi ya, welcome to the forum from Flo and me

First off don't be too hard on yourself or your boy, things happen and in this case there was no major damage done but lessons learnt.

As a first step, take a look at the clip at the link in the first post of this thread, it might give you some ideas. A second step would be to master the drop command, in these types of situations it can prove critical

Hi Ian and Flo
Thank you so much for your advice.
Another question.... For this incident Barkley was put into his bed when we returned home, just so that he knows that's not acceptable. How long would you suggest following through on a punishment like this?
Even though Barkley is 3, we are new to this as we got him from Battersea dogs home 6 weeks ago
Thanks again

Aww well done on the rescue, my Flo resided there before she decided to come home with us

To answer your question, retrospective punishment doesn't work with dogs like it does with humans. Corrective measures need to be at that time when the occurrence happens else they won't relate the two events.

If you experience behaviour you don't want, stop Barkley in his tracks and get him to do something you want him to do like sit, Then reward. This will lead to a uh oh moment in his thought process and when you call him back to sit he'll see it as a positive action.

Dogs always react better to a positive than a negative punishment, it's a hard concept to get around but think about the attention span of a dog, it isn't very long so if you encourage the behaviour you want it'll work better than punishing which they won't understand and may well resent.

Please don't think I'm berating you, we all learn and non more so than me from the advice here. We have some great trainers/ex kennel staff here that will be more than Willing to offer any advice you need as will any of us

Well done on getting a rescue!

I agree with everything Ian has said. It sounds more like resource guarding - my ball not yours - than aggression. Although I understand that his response wasn't ideal either way you look at it, I don't think this indicates that he's going to go for any little dog that crosses his path.

I actually don't think that animals have much concept of right and wrong in the sense we do, they just learn to associate a particular action with a particular response, and the appearance of guilt and knowing they've done wrong is in face more that they know that they will get something not nice from us and are worried, hence the cowering and appeasement behaviour.

6 weeks is still very early days for a dog to settle in, and you may discover behaviours in the weeks to come that you weren't aware of. It might be an idea to get a long training line, you can find them easily on ebay, etc., so that he can still have some freedom but you have some means of limiting his movement. 5m is a good length, long enough for movement but not so long you're constantly in a muddle. Don't go for an extendable lead, they're more difficult to control and you can have accidents with them.

I absolutely agree about teaching your lad 'leave it' or 'drop'. Trying to force any dog's jaws open can make them just hold tighter as they fear you're trying to take their prize away from them, and there is also a danger that the next thing they close their teeth on is your hand.

Until you've got that in place, I'd be cautious about playing with balls or other toys he's particularly fond of in public places.

It might also be an idea to look for some positive method training classes to make sure that socialisation is as solid as possible.

This has just come up on my Facebook. It's a bat training day with Grisha Stewart, don't know if it's of interest to anyone?

http://www.pettrainingschool.co.uk/workshops-and-seminars/bat-seminar-with-grisha-stewart---hampshire/

Oh no! I can't do it. I'd love to though, even if it is miles from me.

Im interested in this too, Freddie is very reactive to other dogs and cats. Not aggressive but he feels the need to go up to every one he sees. I'm trying to train him that he doesnt have to. Just one question if you are using this method do you stop trying to walk the dog while you are trying to desensitise the dog to its trigger. I find that at home or where there isn't a trigger Freddie responds to the clicker and treat but if he is focussed in a driven way he doesnt give a damn about treats. My goal , my big want is to be able to walk with Freddie and for him to be calm about the walk rather than on high alert.

As in stop going walks? No, I still take him walks but they are different. I always have Chaos on a long line and let him choose where he wants to go, unless there's a reason not to of course! He can snuffle and bumble if he wants or walk, and he's allowed to take his own time. I pick walks where I know we are less likely to meet other dogs most of the time and then go to 'training walks' sometimes too. I don't do those all the time as I can now see how stressful he finds it. Funny, I should know this stuff, shouldn't I, but it's so easy to just get into the mindset of taking your dog a walk that you forget to look for the clues.

I'd say the only thing we now still have a problem with is dogs coming up to us in a straight line, purposeful way. Most of the time I can bail out with a 'this way' but we did have a bouncy young GSD wanting to play the other day, and he did his yippy snap at him. But, he then settled and after a minute with Dooley's dad (who I've met walking the girls) holding onto him we walked past quietly.

Do have a look at BAT, Shelley. The e-book is based on being able to set up situations with other quiet dogs and understanding owners, which is something I struggle to organise, but even without that the basic concepts can be applied to day-to-day life. It will no doubt take longer that way but from my experience it's worth trying the long way too.

So you walk Chaos separate to your other dogs? This concept is so hard we have had a routine for over 40 years of walking our dogs in the mornings.it is part of my exercise routine too.
Now I have a dog that is so hard to walk and it seems too cruel to crate him and go without him.

I don't have anyone I can set up situations with. Nobody I know nearby has a dog.