dangerous dogs/illegal breeds

Ok so im just curious has anyone ever gone through the process of dangerous dogs or illegal dogs in the uk btw i am just curious bella isnt in any trouble just been google ing and there is very little information and i just wanted to know the in and outs

I volunteer for the RSPCA Danaher Centre, and have sadly met a few dogs who had to be pts because of being deemed pit bull types. We have not choice but to have the euthanised as it is illegal to rehome them. Very sad, some lovely, lovely dogs.

The important (and reassuring) thing to know is that a dog is assessed as being a pit bull type by a trained police officer, who makes the assessment according to clear guidelines that involve measurements of limbs, etc. It's not just someone who think a dog looks a bit like that, and it's not Joe Public who doesn't like the look of your dog. If a dog is borderline, temperament can be taken into consideration.

The assessement follows the Defra identification list, which is at the end of this.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69263/dogs-guide-enforcers.pdf

The rest of the document is worth reading if you're concerned. Simply put, though, if you look at the flow chart, if your dog isn't considered dangerous or deemed a banned breed, then you have nothing to worry about even if Sid Stupid at the park says your staffy should be muzzled because he's a know-it-all-git.

In the unlikely event that you should find yourself in a situation like this it is important that you Dont sign your dog over but seek legal advice straight away.

This link has some great info:-
http://www.ddawatch.co.uk

I met a couple outside Sainsbury's a few weeks ago and the bloke said hello to Stan and smiled and looked at the young woman and said "You can see the difference in a full Staff." At first I wondered what he meant but he said they had a Staffy cross and it's head wasn't as big as Stan's. He also said they had a dog classed as a Pit Bull Terrier and had to have it muzzled in public and tattooed and insured for about £67 I think. They said the dog was as soft as anything but automatically got penalised because of its breed type. They seemed like nice people and liked Stan so obviously had good taste.

Hello. I've moved your topic to the relevant section.

Whilst I do have experience of this, similarly to Liz it's from the kennel side of things, which unfortunately 9/10 results in euthanasia.


What sparked your interest in the matter?

Im not sure what made me start google ing about it but the lack of info made me want to ask questions i just think its good to know about it incase people are ever in that situation i know i want to know about the process in terms of what happens when the police take your dog how long does the whole process last before you can claim your dog back things like that

We do have a link with some info here;
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t55231-is-my-dog-a-pit-bull-terrier

But the best place for info would be DEFRA or DDA watch.

There was someone on the Facebook page going through this a month or so ago even though her dog was the recieving dog in a dog fight. Her dog was taken in, unjustly in my view, and she was due in court August sometime. After asking why, she said the law has been amended and that the dog only has to cause concern with its behaviour to be looked at.

I did say to her what about the small dogs that attacked hers but she didn't know. I'll send her a message when I remember and see if I can find out what happened.

Couple of months ago, we watched a program on TV regarding "Dangerous Dogs in Ireland"
A couple were interviewed - their 6 year old staffy was removed from them due to be put down under the "dangerous dog regulations here. We saw footage of the dog, escaping from their house, running across the road to a young girl walking her dog, the staffy looked friendly to us owners, but scared the life out of the child. The dog warden was called, the dog taken. It followed the family and their fight to have their dog returned. They won their case and she was returned to her family. The lawyer was interviewed and was upset that the "Nanny Dog" received such negative press and should not be classified under this classification. Nice ending :-)

BriggsX4 wrote:Couple of months ago, we watched a program on TV regarding "Dangerous Dogs in Ireland"
A couple were interviewed - their 6 year old staffy was removed from them due to be put down under the "dangerous dog regulations here.  We saw footage of the dog, escaping from their house, running across the road to a young girl walking her dog, the staffy looked friendly to us owners, but scared the life out of the child.   The dog warden was called, the dog taken.  It followed the family and their fight to have their dog returned.  They won their case and she was returned to her family.   The lawyer was interviewed and was upset that the "Nanny Dog" received such negative press and should not be classified under this classification.   Nice ending :-)

It's great to read a positive outcome but how many fall foul of these bad laws

If in the event your dog ever WAS looked at and it got to the point they said they were going to get a "trained police officer" to look at it, i would be getting it put down by my own vet before they ever took it. I'm sorry, but most of these professionals can't tell a chihuahua from a yorkie, even with measurments, and measurements mean diddly squat in breeds because they are all individual and certain breeds will breed certain traits even if there is ZERO bull type in them. The dog will just be put in kenels for months then put down anyway when it is so stressed and terrified it does eventually snap. Treat a dog like a ticking time bomb and it will eventually explode. Sorry, i have no faith in the justice system with regards to this. Nor the RSPCA. (sorry liz.)

lexii wrote:If in the event your dog ever WAS looked at and it got to the point they said they were going to get a "trained police officer" to look at it, i would be getting it put down by my own vet before they ever took it. I'm sorry, but most of these professionals can't tell a chihuahua from a yorkie, even with measurments, and measurements mean diddly squat in breeds because they are all individual and certain breeds will breed certain traits even if there is ZERO bull type in them. The dog will just be put in kenels for months then put down anyway when it is so stressed and terrified it does eventually snap. Treat a dog like a ticking time bomb and it will eventually explode. Sorry, i have no faith in the justice system with regards to this. Nor the RSPCA. (sorry liz.)

You would kill your dog "just in case" it may be classified as type?

I have seen vast numbers of dogs (including my own) assessed, deemed to be "not type" and released back without any repercussions or restrictions on their freedom. I have also seen many dogs assessed as type and released back (yes, at times, after a lengthy period in kennels) to their families, with certain restrictions in place. Your comment could be very damaging to individuals coming to the forum to gain advice on this subject, you make it sounds as though there is never a chance of a positive outcome, which is absolutely not the case.

No, I don't agree with BSL, no measurements are not a valid course of breed testing, yes I do feel that BSL is being used in some circumstances to aid in the population control of bull breeds - I understand that these aspects can cause distrust within the community, but there is so much more going on behind the scenes. Just look at the work of the DDA watch and how many dogs they get cleared and back to their families, in as short amount of time as possible. Depending on the kennel setting, dogs can experience moderate to high levels of stress, granted, but people generally work as dog handlers because they care about dogs - not because they want to cull them all. Stress and being in an alien environment is always taken into account when assessing a dogs behaviour. There are always going to be dodgy kennels, the Lennox case was of course prevalent in proving this, but this does not speak for all kennels, nor all BSL cases.

No, i would get my dog humanely put to sleep before she was taken to a kennel for months to be pts anyway. I would only do it if i was told it was definitely being taken, not just on a whim. I think living in a kennel is the saddest thing ever esp when they are under strict no contact rules due to breed. They're better off dead. Like i said, i have no faith in the justice system.

Hayley, I don't know how the kennels in your area are run, but all of our type dogs in all 3 of the kennels that I've worked in were walked every day on the kennel grounds, taken into the staff room at lunch time for some time out (depending on temperament, time spent in the conservatory if not safe with strangers) and given the same treatment as any other dog in our care. Kennels are rubbish, I agree, but that's like saying that any dog that is going into a rescue centre should just be put to sleep, rather than trying to rehome them. Hundreds of dogs are released as type every year, to go on to live to an old age in the comfort of their homes. I wish I could find some up to date figures to prove this to you. If I had followed your logic when Bug was tested, she would be dead now. But instead she's currently peacefully asleep in her big comfy bed, with a belly full of food, after a morning running around on the moors.

I'm afraid I find that terribly sad, Lexii. I know there is footage of stressed dogs in kennels but my experience of them is that this is the exception rather than the rule, and I agree with Rachel that emotional imput of the staff at the kennels I know is the same for all dogs, regardless of age, breed, behavioural problems, etc.

I don't know if your negative view of kennels, the RSPCA, the police, etc is from your own experiences or from the press. If it's the latter, remember that the media loves to bash, that makes a good story. If it's from a personal experience, remember that one bad example doesn't make everything bad. Wherever your views come from, though, they aren't true of what Rach and I see on the ground, I hope others at least can gain comfort from that.

I would always much, much rather try find a positive than assume the worst without evidence to the contrary. And I would also never just put one of my dogs down and the basis of that assumption that could then turn out to be wrong. If my dog were taken, and if he did end up somewhere dreadful and couldn't cope, then I might take that decision based on actual facts, but certainly not before. You can't change your mind when it's too late.

Bumping this post, as a local dog who is a staffy x lab cross has been taken from its home by 8 police officers and 4 dog wardens. It is deemed type and the owners have been told it will be assessed by measurements and put to sleep if they are the same as a pit bull.

The owner was not home, yet 12 people broke into their house to take this dog who they have made comment saying was not aggressive in any way, just looked sort of pit bull like (the wardens said this).

I again question how MEASUREMENTS can deem a dog to be of a certain breed, which is notoriously crossbred across many generations. How can that be just?

https://www.facebook.com/savehank/?fref=ts

The wardens have also said that the dog is not coping well in kennels, and is very stressed. Shoudl this dog show ANY undesirable behavior now, it will be destroyed. Despite the fact this is not normal situations and that all dogs go a bit funy in kennels, this one dog will be targeted.

This poor dog could be in kennels for years now without any human contact or ever leaving the same 6x9 block, living with no stimulation or love, and then put down. Hence why i would put my own dog down before they ever could.

This is so sad the situation is getting out of hand. In our local paper there was a man in his 60s walking his Rottweiler that was 14 yrs old . He was only a few feet from his house when the guards pulled up beside him and asked about his muzzle the man said the poor dog is on his last legs he was only going to the end of the street and back but that didn't make a difference 3wks later dog dies. He got a summons a few weeks later told judge dog died, he still got a fine because he had a dangerous dog out with no muzzle. Talking to people it seems to be the same newbie officer trying to make a name for himself. I got cautioned already but there is no way I'll give up my dog with out a fight. Three times the same lab has laid into Dexter the last time my daughter got a fright dexter had muzzle lab none but you could see people reactions. Dexter didn't have a clue still wagging tail the man all apologies if anything did happen who would be in the wrong. I think all dogs should be muzzled. In Ireland they don't do the measurements but every dog should have a licence and microchip something needs to be done with the law.

as a local dog who is a staffy x lab cross has been taken from its home by 8 police officers and 4 dog wardens.

regarding Hank ..
he was returned to his family

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Last month a couple had their dog seized by Belfast city council for having pitbull characteristics they had the dog assessed and fought a 20 day battle to get him back and won with the help of the public and media. So sometimes they're is a happy ending. They got there dog back on Tuesday  with 2 sacks of well wishers letters and a 160 dog toys

Talking about same dog Hank

That is one of those rare good news endings

Unfortunately if you have any type of cross breed that has a bully appearance out in public, you're more likely to be scrutinised.

I had an incident with my boy a few months back on a local park, my boy is sbt X American Bulldog, a smaller dog was off lead, as was he with nobody else there.

This dog came out of nowhere and attacked my boy, however a week later he was seized off of me, they kept him for over a year.

As the incident was off of CCTV and the owner to the much smaller dog was making up stories, even getting people that weren't there involved giving statements and claiming he was bitten by my dog.

Very stressful process, police never wanted to listen to a word I said throughout, believing from what the other owner had said, who coincidently told the police in a statement that I set my dog on him and his dog!

Luckily it was sorted in court, with all local dog walkers giving statements on me and my boy, and the assessment made by an ex police officer at the kennels he was kept in.

Everyone involved fell in love with my boy, and when I got him back there were even tears from the kennel keepers as they had clearly fallen in love with him.

Throughout the year I had to keep attending bail hearings at my local police station and was also re-arrested at one stage for witness intimidation on the same guy, which was proven that I was at work when it occurred, they found out he lied about being bitten also and wanted my boy assessed for being a pitbull!

so glad you got your dog back,it must have been so stressful for you all

That sounds absolutely horrific for you and your boy. I hope the police prosecuted this scum bag for lying to the police and harassment of you!

That has to be the worst nightmare come true. I'm so, so pleased it worked out in the end but just too awful for words that you had to go through it. And yes, I hope they threw the book at the lying scum.

Another terrible day for the staffy breed. Just saw the news a baby has been killed by a staffy, and a toddler seriously injured. Anyone got any more info on the story?

Only what's on the BBC web site Johno

It's in the daily mail too. I won't even look at the comments, the Dm always seems to have it in for Staffs and pits. It's a horrible thing to happen.

It does say on dm that the police haven't actually confirmed the breed yet.

Yeah, the breed hasn't been confirmed yet. Not that it particularly matters what breed it is. Any dog can be dangerous, it just seems that staffys in particular get a lot of media attention.

The poor family must be devastated. I can't imagine what they are going through.

Murmurs are that its a Staffy cross, either way another stain on our beloved breed. Having said that, I noticed that the BBC didn't apportion any blame directly to Staffords.

A little bit of topic, but this morning my Bowie was attacked in the park. Bowie was on the lead when a border collie ran over and bit him on his head and shook him around. Bowie is ok, has a few nasty cuts on his face and nose. When I calmed Bowie down, I spoke with the owner, who promptly said that her dog doesn't like smaller dogs!!!! What the hell??? So why isn't it on the lead or muzzled??? It clearly has done it before as she wasn't surprised in any way, and actually tried having a go at me for standing on the collies neck to make it release Bowie. My question to you wonderful staffy owners is... what would you do about it? Is this worth reporting? Who would I report it too? (In the U.K.).

My 4 year old son usually comes on our walks, luckily he didn't this morning as he had a play date with some friends. What if he was there and was playing with Bowie when the collie when nuts??? It's a scary thought but one that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Any advise would be most appreciated.

if you have park wardens in your area you should report it to them. give the local council a ring & they'll be able to tell you.

i would definitely report it - what if next time it seriously injures a tiny dog? or as you say, what if your child is there & gets injured in some way? there's no excuse for an out of control dog, especially when the owner already knows it's out of control.

Wow that's terrible!!! Poor Bowie- is he ok now? I cant believe this women thinks its ok for her dog to attack a puppy!! Id be furious if it happened to me- did she at least offer to pay for any vets bills?

I can imagine if it was the other way round and an adult staff did that to a collie pup.
Are you going to take Bowie to puppy classes- I think they are a great idea anyway but just in case this scared him today it would be good for him to be around puppys to socialise with.

You can report dangerous dogs to the police or local dog warden. I completely agree- if this dog is known to attack small dogs it should be muzzled and always on the lead (in my opinion).

Ive been told by other dog walkers in the park here to keep an eye out for two labs around here- basically one of them is friendly but the other will attack dogs and has put two dogs into the vets with nasty bites- everyone knows about these Labs and they have been reported yet it seems nothing gets done about these two. Very frustrating for other owners.

Really hope Bowie is ok.

On the subject above- does anyone know about the dogs autopsy- I heard it was happening Sat- the more I read about this dog attacking three people makes me think it must have had something like a brain tumour or something. I was watching a show the other day and a guy rescued Dogue De Bordeaux's and had done for years- one day he was walking one and he slipped on ice and then the dog bit him many times- the dog had to be pts and they did the autopsy and found he was suffering a brain tumor so that was probably the cause. I saw a Greyhound was in the new today for attacking a child- its not a staffie so obviously it doesn't get a huge amount of press.

Thanks, I'm going to talk to the city council and see if they can advise me further.

Bowie is fine, he starts his puppy classes next week. He has been so good at socialising with other dogs so far, very confident and well behaved. I hope today's events don't affect him.

As for the autopsy, I've not seen any updates from the BBC. I did read online that the dog belonged to the baby's aunt. And the mother of the baby was having a bath... not sure if this is fact, just what I heard on social media.

BBC have put the dog belonged to the baby's aunt. The aunt is a serving police officer. There deffo won't be a criminal case then!

Sorry to read that Bowie was assulted but pleased that he doesn't seem too shook up by the experience. I agree, report the owner. You should be able to find the local Dog warden on the council web site.

Does make you want answers as to why the dog attacked the poor children, after all, Staffies aren't known as the nanny dog for no reason.

My brother has often taken on rescue rotties, his have been fine so far but he's always in contact with the lady that takes them in. She had dealt with a dog a few years ago that had to be pts for biting a child, after PM they discovered the child had stabbed the dog with a knitting needle!!!!! I would of bitten the child too, what a waste of a good dog Dogs don't attack for no reason!!!

Hey everyone!

I have been reading this forum and it's been super helpful, and I'm gonna ask for a little bit more. I'm living in Curacao at the moment and looking to move back to the UK with my two shelter dogs. One of our dogs in a staffy mix, or so we think. We don't know for sure because she was rescued after being abandoned.

We really want to be as prepared as possible to bring her back, so can anyone give me any information on what happens:
- if your dog is taken to be assessed?
- how long can this take? Weeks, months, years?
- any info anyone can give us with customs etc. I assume she will be checked on arrival at the airport or border?

She is a wonderful dog and if it turns out that she will most likely be destroyed in the UK then we will move somewhere else where they don't have a ban or a risk of something awful happening. Our first choice would be the UK, so investigation into any and all info is the first step for us. I have contacted RSPCA, DDA, and the Police but it takes time to get info back from them.

If you have anything helpful to pass on, I would be most grateful!

Many thanks,

Donna

Hi Donna,

The assessment process itself is quick, it's what happens afterwards that's the long bit. If you have a dog that has been positively assessed as pit bull type, you have 2 options. One is to agree to have it put down straight away, the other is to go through the courts in the hope that you will be allowed to have it exempted. That can take months +, and during that time the dog would be held in police kennels. Some kennels aren't too bad, others are grim. It's not something I'd want to have to face, to be honest.

I'm not sure what happens when you import a dog, if they are automatically checked or not. I would have thought one of the transport organisations might be best placed to advise you.

Can you try and post a photo - side on? The system might not let you, it sometimes makes new members wait for some reason best known to itself!

Here's how to post photos, the 1st method is easiest.

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t12017-how-to-post-a-picture-onto-the-forum

Hi LizP,

Thanks so much for the info.  I will see if I can get hold of anyone from any of the transport agencies.  We are having her assessed by our vet over here with the guidelines they use in the UK but even then it's no guarantee that she will be allowed to stay.  This is a pic of her!  

The problem is that a vet won't have the guidelines that the police use. Those on the defra website are an outline, the police have a detailed checklist that's not available otherwise. It's mostly based on measurements and ratios - literally a tape measure job.

To be honest, if she came into our rescue we would probably have to have her assessed and my gut feeling, just from that shot, is that there is a reasonable risk she's be assessed as 'type. Her head is bigger than those that usually get caught in the net that I've met but her body looks fairly like.

She is, by the way, gorgeous!!! That face...

She is a gorgeous girl, and such a gentle personality. She has had a pretty tough life so far and I really don't want to put her through more. I will wait to hear back from a few more people, but I really appreciate your honesty. I do think she will be classed as 'type' so we will have to have a look see at what other countries we can move to where she will be safe!

Thanks so much for your info! It's been really helpful!

Hi all,
We recently adopted a Staffy cross and after reading this thread I wonder why to let someone to determine if you dog is a pitbull when there is DNA test?
Do you think having a genetic test would help? I know my staffy is not a pure breed and there might be a chance that one of his grandparents might have been a bull. I don't know for sure, someone that knows about staffies just told us that.

Also, what would happen if lets say my dog is 80% staffy and 20% pitbull? would that make it an 'illegal breed'

I'm seriously considering DNA testing. Thoughts?

Hi Thyco, I wouldn't bother with a dna test as these do not stand up in court and are not used to determine the type of dog. I would always say your dog is a staffy cross and so not mention pit bull. As long as your dog is well behaved you shouldn't hopefully have any problems. Congratulations on the rescue!
Can't wait to see pics x

As said a DNA test will not help. A dog doesn't need to have any pitbull in them at all to be deemed "pit type" due to current BSL laws. Just keep your dog under control, train them well as any good owner should.

Agree with what's been said. The law says 'type' so even a Stafford could (although probably wouldn't) be deemed a 'type' if it isn't bred to standard. Don't waste your money on a DNA test;from what I've read they're not totally accurate anyway.

Keep your dog under control at all times and you are unlikely to have any problems.

Can you post a photo?

https://www.petforums.co.uk/threads/peta-are-at-it-again.488934/

leading to ..

http://www.dogmagazine.net/if-you-own-a-staffordshire-bull-terrier-in-the-uk-this-organisation-wants-your-dog-wiped-out/

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Thanks for the update Kozmos,
I would be happy to write to my MP but I think there should be a pre-defined letter that we can use, with the right wording/letter terminology we can make bigger impact on MPs

@Thyco
tbh: i'm wondering about the accuracy of that article

peta don't seem to have a problem with pitbulls in the usa
https://www.peta.org/features/dogs-before-after-rescue/
so why call for staffies to be banned here in the uk

can't see it happening somehow
( i.e. banning staffies or am.bulldogs )

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wish this site would work properly in my browzer (safari) images / icons refuse to show
the reply box has no options
works ok in sea-monkey old version
but it refuses to accept the privacy policy pop up window

Sadly it is true that peta have asked for Staffies to be added to the banned breeds. Have a look for the link I posted last week regarding the discussion in parliament about BSL. Luckily lots of other people and organisations who actually do care about animals have protested about BSL. There are numerous people who have made their feelings about peta known on their Facebook page under their post saying they respect all animals.