Aggression

2 days ago if you would of asked my why a staffie is aggressive I would of said bad owner but now my opinion has changed.
Back in 2012 I found a breeder that had a litter of puppies born.
So we went to meet them and the pups mum.
They were 3 weeks old and as all pups are they were absolutely gorgeous but our main concern was what temperament mum was due to the bad press this breed were having we needed to check things out.
The breeders assured us that the mum was bred correct with a family friend's staffie, they were against dog fighting and any aggression and mum was a soft gentle girl which we saw ourselves.
We chose our pup paid our deposit and arranged to pick her up when she was ready to leave mum at 8 weeks old.
A few weeks later we were contacted by the breeder saying there was a puppy back up for sale due to her daughter having one but as her boyfriend was abusing the puppy she took it back. She noted us that the puppy left mum at 5 weeks which I felt was to early but the puppy seemed fine so we said we would have her as well to give our puppy a friend.
So 8 weeks arrived and we went to pick the pups up. We name the first pup we chose Star and the one who left mum early Shadow.
Within weeks of us having them they were crate and house trained and turning into lovely dogs.
We decided never to engage them in aggressive pretend play and keep there play soft and try to keep them as calm dogs.
Christmas 2012 and as we are big softies with animals we bought them both dog Christmas crackers, we put them on the floor and let them open and sniff their treats.
At this time they were only 7 months old. Within minutes Shadow attacked Star.
It wasn't just a nip or warn off her treat, She latched on but luckily as she was only a puppy we were able to get her off Star.
The next day I contacted the vets due to worry and confusion why this had happened.
The vets said that they were just trying to work out who's top dog.
As the vets are professionals I felt much more at ease.
A few months later another attacked happened again Shadow went for Star but I let it go and just kept monitoring her behaviour.
5 more months had passed and they seemed to had worked out who was the boss and no more attacks happened. Until June 2013.
The girls never had set meal times and grazed over the day when they felt hungry and that is the way they always had.
Shadow was at the food bowl eating when Star looked at her when Shadow launched at Star.
It was the most horrific thing I have ever witnessed, I was very lucky that day that my husband was at home. It took him 20 minutes to get Shadow off Star as she had latched on, after finally getting Shadow off, Star coward but Shadow went straight back in to fight.
There was blood everywhere I was 5 months pregnant at the time.
As both dogs were injured I asked my mum and dad could they take Star to the vets why we took Shadow.
While waiting in the vets Shadow went for Star again the vets said that when dogs set they won't stop until they kill.
So we had no choice but to have her put to sleep she was 10 months old. It was the hardest decision I had ever had to make.
As Star had never shown any signs of aggression we decided it was only fair to keep her but monitor her behaviour closely and more so because we had our baby girl due to be born in October 2013.
Star seemed fine and after the baby was born she was fantastic with her, very soft and gentle.
The only thing I was concerned about was that since Shadow being put to sleep Star started to chase her tail but the vets said it's most likely separation anxiety and she will grow out of it. She never did.
So I paid £40 an hour to get her assessed by a professional dog behaviourist where his results were she is a nervous but soft dog that is no threat to others and I need to put what happened behind me.
As the family is a dog family and my mum had one we had to be very careful when introducing them and see how Star was around my mum's dog Bonny.
Due to her previous experience's.
Although Star had too much energy for Bonny due to Bonny being an old dog at 12 years old and Star being a puppy they seemed to get on well.
They would eat, sleep and play together.
The older Star got the more confident she got and wanted to be the top dog but as Bonny is easy going she didn't mind Star having all her own way.
On a few occasions when eating and playing Star would growl and snarl at Bonny.
Again I contacted the vets for advice and they just said Star wanted to show Bonny she was top dog and if she wanted to attack she would of done this by now. So again I felt at ease and just put it down to being nervous due to what I had seen with her sister.
Up until a few weeks ago both dogs where getting on fine until Star started being nasty towards Bonny again like before.
Tuesday 24th of March 2015
So I booked Star into the vets to have a brief chat and get some advice. Star is loving and soft with the family, friends and baby so I didn't understand why this behaviour towards Bonny was happening as Bonny is so soft and placid and wouldn't hurt a fly.
The vets said why don't they refer me to a group/ one to one behaviourist again and this would help my confidence rebuild and give Star some further training with other dogs.
Star now being 29 months old and fully grown going to my mum's and being around Bonny on a regular basis and the vets saying not to worry we continued with our normal routine.
Star went to my mum's on Wednesday 25th of March 2015 as normal due to me going to work and not wanting to leave her on her own and my mum not minding having her.
After I returned to my mum's after work on Wednesday I noticed that something wasn't right and my mum told me to sit down and told me that Star had attacked Bonny and Bonny was at the vets fighting for her life. It took my dad a long time to get Star off Bonny.
Star had Bonny pinned on the floor shaking her and being really aaggressive.
like Shadow when my dad managed to get Star off Bonny and Bonny inside away from Star she went into fight again.
Luckily Bonny has pulled through for now after a night on oxygen due to shock and having stitches.
Star was put to sleep yesterday.
I feel so guilty but I know there was nothing more I could of done.
I tried everything I feel I possible could but just don't understand why this soft dog I brought up right has turned out so vicious.
Can anybody give me advice and help me understand.

First of all, I'm truly truly sorry to hear your awful story. My heart goes out to you and to your family.

For me, there are clues in this bit of your post

A few weeks later we were contacted by the breeder saying there was a puppy back up for sale due to her daughter having one but as her boyfriend was abusing the puppy she took it back. She noted us that the puppy left mum at 5 weeks which I felt was to early but the puppy seemed fine so we said we would have her as well to give our puppy a friend.

So 8 weeks arrived and we went to pick the pups up. We name the first pup we chose Star and the one who left mum early Shadow.

No puppy should ever, ever be sold at 5 weeks old. It is a crucial stage in the development of a dog physically, mentally and emotionally. This is the time they learn from their litter mates how to play and when they start to learn about not going too far. For Shadow not only to have missed this key period in her life would have had a profound effect on its own, but for it to be coupled with abuse bythe boyfriend would have left lasting scars. Mental and emotional damage at this age can be permanent, regardless of any subsequent positive experiences.

Even 8 weeks is, in my view, too early to sell a puppy. I'm not at all having a go at you, you did what many people do for not knowing any different.

Given, then, that we have a breeder who was happy to sell a 5 week old puppy to a completely unsuitable owner, I have to question how all of the puppies and any other dogs in their care were actually treated. If not with abuse, I would hazard a guess that it would have been a less than ideal environment for a young dog to learn the basics of living with others and of sharing happily. All your incidents appear to have been resource/play based, which might indicate a scarcity of these resources to the pups and hence a deep need being instilled from an early age, as well as a lack of knowledge of how to deal with these things in some situations.

Assuming that the above is right, or at least not too far off the mark, it would then say that the seeds for your dogs' behaviours were sewn way before you first got them, and that there is nothing in what you have done or not done that has contributed to the terrible outcome. It also says that it's not just because your dogs were staffies that this happened but because they had the ill fortune of being born into the wrong environment.

So go back to your initial conclusion, that a staffy turns out wrong because of its owner. It's just in this case that the owner was during those formative days and weeks before they were sold to you.

I hope you can see your way through this and that the experience has not scared you off dogs for life. I would completely understand if you were not to get another bull breed - logic can tell you one thing but your self preservation instinct may well tell you something different. But do find a dog or dogs to love again, because you sound like you need it and also because you sound such a lovely and caring owner.

I do agree with many things you say. And I'm just glad you say that I did everything as I should. I'm only 26 but been around dogs my whole life. It has put me off dogs for now and made me very nervous but hopefully in time this will change.
I just wish maybe I would of thought about the decision more we made when we decided to have shadow too. Things may have been so different but we will never know.
Thanks again for your advice or lovely comments.
Cheryl xxx

I too am so very sorry to read you're post at the top. I can only echo the suggestions that Liz has listed, the early days are so very important.

I don't think there was much you could have done differently seeing as the episodes happened out of the blue with no warning. In hindsight toys and feeding could have been kept seperate but that doesn't explain the sudden aggression.

I hope in time you will realise that this wasn't something that you did and like Liz says, you sound like someone that cares immensely otherwise you wouldn't have posted.

I too hope that given time you will have another fur friend

Totally not the breed, if you go into the nitty gritty there were probably a thousand reasons that the situation turned out as it did - from perhaps the temperament of dad aswell as mum, the early environment, sibling rivalry, the impact of the attacks from the other dogs over food etc. I agree with Liz whole heartedly, sorry for your loss.

It was the breeders fault in the first place pups and mum were seperated 2 early that was the cause of the aggression/fighting i believe if the breeder was in any way responsible and cared about the pups firstly they would have had their first injections flea/wormed at the very least they should have offered some hints or tips about staffies in general if u are a first time staffy owner. A well behaved and socialised older staffy would be an ideal first pet for you if you ever thought about a dog in the future.

Thank you Ian. Your comments mean so much too x

Thanks Rachel and Mia for your comments x

How awful, it doesn't sound like the advice from the vet was doing a lot to help the situation either. There seems to have been a period of time and maybe signals between them that you weren't aware of and it finally flared up in the most terrible way. I can't say I've had a lot of experience of dogs showing such extreme behaviour towards each other and it looks like it was more than just sorting out who was boss. They seemed to have lost their bond to each other and had became like strangers. I'm very sorry for the emotional experiences that all of you have been through (including the dogs). In the future maybe you could get someone with more experience to go with you and help judge whether the circumstances are right for a future dog. There's obviously been some foul play here too and the so called boyfriend needs a visit to his local vets if you ask me. It sounds like there were a number of things wrong here and not just the breeds involved.I know you won't see Staffies as a whole bad because of this and hopefully in time you will regain your confidence with the pitter patter of paws again. Ian.

Hi sorry for your loss I too had a similar decision to make. My Skye we got at 12weeks from a breeder who couldn't have been nicer and has turned into the staffies we all know and love but I resc a boy at 6months old from a dubious background. He was kept cadged possibly hit etc we had to have him pts before Christmas as he had become aggressive to anyone. Totally different to Skye but brought up with us exactly the same. It's sad but you did the right thing

Thanks Stan and Holly.
I agree also with your comments. I don't hate the breed I'm just confused on how a dog I brought up from a puppy who was my best friend and by my side all the time could turn into a stranger with her behaviour.
That's the reason I'm not sure about whether it's the breed as well as owner input. And with all the stories going around I just don't no.

Gazagem thanks for your comment.
What a shame. How anyone can abuse anything is beyond me. And the poor animals suffer. Sorry for your loss too x

Whatever you do please don't take another dog you killed two healthy dogs without even trying to deal with the problem or rehoming them with more capable owners . I know dealing with aggression is not nice but I would never dream of putting my dog to sleep so many things you could have done not to mention the thing you call vet.

I did everything I could. I seeked professional help both with the vets and behaviourist on a number of occasions. I spoke to prevent unwanted pets and a Staffordshire Bull terrier rescue and both would not take them due to there signs of aggression. I have a 18 month old little girl that I could not risk being caught in the middle of a fight or worse being bitten. From the way you write you either clearly have not seen a vicious dog attack or you don't have children because if you had and your dog were behaving like that you wouldn't think twice.

So sorry to hear about this tragic story, can't imagine how heart braking it may have been. I am 100% behind you when you say you had tried everything, you seem a lovely person that did your best and until you experience this situation yourself it's hard to pass judgment. I hope you find another fur baby soon. All the best. Beth

How I wish it was true if you read the forum you can see that I'm dealing with a similar situation out of the blue that's why it shocked me so much why not muzzle train them as a start ? Plus I don't think that one fight makes a very well bahaved dog otherwise aggressive I'm no expert but I had dogs forever and work with them and don't think mine or yours are for sure aggressive you can't pts a healthy dog because of one nasty incident. Your 2nd dog wasn't classed as aggressive by the behaviourist . I know it's very scary to deal with but I think you made an awful decision I couldn't live with .

Beth your comment means so much.And hopefully in time. Xxx

Peppa if you had read my post properly you would of read that both dogs showed signs of aggression before the initial attacks. Shadow did not attack once but 4 times before the vets said that she had a bad streak in her that would be hard to get rid of. And it would be hard to re home and when re homing people target dogs like her for dog fighting which I couldn't take that risk. So I made the best decision for what I felt was right. As for star she was showing signs off aggression and to my mums dog which is very soft then to attack for no reason. How could I keep a dog like that which u thought was so soft and gentle to be so unpredictable.
The behaviourist Star saw only assessed her for 1 hour with which I have now been told that this was in no way long enough to get clear results.
I don't know you situation and I hope you never have to experience what I have but if you do you will understand why I made these drastic decision.

MOD POST:
Can we please try to keep this thread in line and leave out the insensitive posts. The OP is clearly struggling with the passing of her dogs, and though perhaps things could have been different, they also may not have. The OP tried her best in her difficult situation, and sought help at many avenues. If we have nothing nice to say, let's not say anything. Understand that this is an emotive post, but let's try and have some empathy.

Thank you Rachel. X

One thing you can be sure of, it's definitely not the breed. The thing is with a Staffie is that when it does become aggressive you've got a problem. They are strong, determined dogs and when they attack they make their mark. That's part of the reason why Staffie attacks receive so much publicity (the other part being that people own them as status dogs and train them to be aggressive).

Round here I know of several dogs that have attacked other dogs, all of the aggressors (except one) being small dogs such as Jack Russells and Yorkies. The worst physical damage that the 'victimised' dogs suffered were minor puncture wounds, plus a course of antibiotics from the vets. So these attacks pretty much pass under the radar. My boy was attacked by two rat dogs who really went to town on him but despite him not defending himself (he's the world's wussiest Staff) they didn't even puncture his skin.

So my point is that all breeds can demonstrate aggression if not treated right but it's always the powerful bull-breeds / rotties / Akitas that you hear about because they do the most damage when they do snap. In my experience Staffies are less likely to show aggression than most, if not all, other breeds.

And every thing you say sounds correct but I always brought my girls up soft and didn't want a statement dog I wanted a friend companion. That's the reason I questioned the breed.

I think the problem here is not the breed, but that your girl had a behavioural problem - resource guarding of food - which can be present in any breeds and requires a behaviourist's input in my opinion. 90% of vets have no behavioural training, they shouldn't attempt to advise on such complex matters. In humans, if we went to the doctor with a behavioural/mental health problem they would refer us to a counsellor or a behaviour specialist - they are medical not behavioural specialists. X

A lot of dogs, even the softest dogs will become aggressive around food, toys and treats if not managed it's not a breed thing it's a dog thing. In your post, if I read it correctly, Shadow was aggressive towards Star mainly when they were around food. If you decide to get a dog in the future when you are ready and have finished grieving be very wary of leaving any treats, toys or food on the floor especially if you have two, it may be fine when they are very young but as they mature it can and most likely will cause fights. That's with any breed.

Also if you decide to get two I would go for two dogs from different litters and different sexes, litter mates seem to be more problematic and same sex dogs can also be more problematic. That too is not a breed thing, it's a dog thing.

Rachel and debs I agree with a lot you both say. And that's why I had a behaviourist in to assess star and he said she was fine just a nervous dog just due to her previous experience with her sister but nothing to worry about. So I told myself I was just being paranoid due to what I had witnessed.
When getting both girls I was never once advised it would be best to just get one and as growing up we had two together and family members and never seen or heard things like this I never thought it would be a problem. I'm not saying the whole breed of Staffie's are bad it's just put me off having another one myself in the future and that's not saying I will ever get another dog again due to my nerves now.
But I would never have ago at anyone to choosing that breed.

Sibling aggression is a very well known and common problem in dogs, and most decent breeders will not allow new owners to take home litter mates - especially not two of the same sex. Its just a disaster waiting to happen! Not only can aggression occur, but also lacking training due to very few owners being able to adequately train two puppies at once and work with their personality and behaviour - as they're so often very different (one may be timid, one may be boisterous so would both need completely different socialization, training.. Even a different home at times if one house hold is quite busy.)

I think that perhaps there was a poor disposition in your dogs due to an inexperienced and irresponsible breeder, but I also think that being siblings and resources free around the house (feeding them together etc) was the cause of your problem. And from then onwards I would have never fed them with another dog present and would control all interactions with other dogs. But we can learn from our mistakes.

I've worked with dogs for 6 years now and studied their behaviour, mostly bull breeds - I've never met one that "just turned" without either a medical problem, or a problem stemming from their breeding or upbringing. To the untrained eye it may appear that way - but it's just not the case. Please don't become another "staffie basher," I really am sympathetic to what happened - it must have been just awful - but there will have been a reason for it.

Again Rachel I uunderstand with the way you right. But I felt I did the best for what I could. I did used to do separate training with them when they were pups. And when they were growing up I was told it was just normal rivalry and working out who was top dog nothing to worry about. I felt I took all advice and tried different ways to prevent this terrible outcome I deep down feel I couldn't of tried any harder and if I didn't then at least I know I tried

Write*

It sounds like there are areas here that lack information and it's making you feel very protective, that's natural after such an ordeal, unfortunately these things do happen with all breeds, crosses and Heinz 57s too. I knew someone once who had a very aggressive Collie, his inexperience made him think the answer to the Collie's aggression was to get an Airedale Terrier pup. Can you guess what happened? He ended up with an Aggressive Collie and an equally aggressive Airedale Terrier that proceeded to attack a local GSD, a Rottweiler and his brother Bull Mastiff and countless others, the owner never understood where he went wrong. I assume he ended up having to do something more drastic as it would've only gotten worse.

Hun I'm really not blaming you at all and truly do believe that you did that absolute best that you knew, you sought help from many avenues.

Thanks guys x

While I agree with peppa in regards to having them PTS, I also have to say that I can't judge you just from reading your original post for 5 minutes and make out you were wrong. Simply because 5 minutes reading does not quantify the amount of time you had them both. I am sure it was indeed a very hard decision to make and I wouldn't want to have been in your shoes in making that. I don't think peppa was being intentially insensitive and sometimes we can take written posts out of context.

I am sorry you have had to go through what you have done but don't let that put you off owning a dog. We have all learnt differing lessons in dog ownership, some more damning than others and if it gives others food for thought when going down various avenues in search of a dog, then all the better for you posting this as an example.

I wasn't sensitive as somebody who can clearly ask for help and advise like sheryl choose to do it here post mortem so to say . Next time ill do something horrible ill come here after to clear my conscience ! I'm just saying that to my opinion the person was very fast to pull the trigger on 2 healthy dogs instead of separating them! And that has nothing to do with breed staffies are dogs. They need to be trained and socialised this case has nothing to do with breed . Most of us have staffs from unknown backgrounds and many that has bad start to life . To loose one dog is tragedy twice is at least negligence.
Obviously my opinion is not popular but I say it as it is and last time I checked I'm allowed to have one you know freedom of speech etc ... It wasnt a personal attack on anybody but I am really shocked from this story.

Peppa both my girls where socialised and very well trained. I tried to get shadow re homed after her last attack but no one would take her due to her aggression. What could I do you tell me? I had a baby on the way. I even asked the breeder if she would take her back or knew anyone who would want her again nothing.
And it was my vets that said putting her to sleep was the kindest thing for her. I'm no professional so did what was advised.
As for star she was everything to me do you think it was easy for me.
Again I asked advice off a number of professional people but no results.
even the Staffordshire Bull dog rescue wouldn't take her in and this was just with her small signs of aggression.
So definitely wouldn't if I told them what she did to Bonny.
So I felt I had no option and your unfair to be so critical when you don't know how much I tried to sort my girls out.
I have had dog in my life since a little girl and always want what's best for them.

Haizum thank you for your post. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do and hope I never have to face a decision like that again. I loved both my girls sincerely and equally. Fully trained them, walked them. And gave them the individual attention they needed.
I tried everything advised with the vets and behaviourist. I can't see what else I could of done.
I could never of forgiven myself if I rehomed them and they attacked again, a child or even worse used for dog fighting or bait. So I did what I felt was right.

It's not about me judging you obviously you feel very guilty I'm just frustrated as its too late but I personally would do everything I could to help you if you just asked including finding rehoming to at least one of them.
Dog to dog aggression dosent mean human aggression and our beloved bullies are very rarely human aggressive.
I would never give up on my peppa who is laying on the couch now with two defenceless French bulldog I'm working with her and correcting her but even if she turns up dog aggressive ill muzzle her and protect the other dogs and our life wouldn't be as nice but I'm not giving up on my dog . Ever.
Maybe shadow was a hard case loosing her mum and siblings at 5 weeks only which is a criminal thing and totally the breeders fault but for the life of me I cannot get why you PTS star who was great loving family dog otherwise and only didnt get along with bonny who doesn't leave in the same house. You could have just kept them apart but you PTS her within a day of the attack when you had all the signs they don't get along. That's common sense you don't need to be an expert.

I feel for you and those poor dogs PTS. I would never just take a vets advise 100%. Also as Star started to show aggressive towards your moms dog, I would have stopped those dogs mixing to avoid the sad situation that happened. Hence the reason I say dont take the vets advice, you have to act on what you see and take steps to make sure situations do not happen. There is always a reason why dogs act the way they do, it does not mean they have become aggressive. I am not having ago at you, its been very upsetting for you. And I do feel for you. I have grown up with dogs, and keeping siblings do not always work (My late dad was a breeder) . The breeder should never have allowed you to take 2. Dont let what has happen put you off from having dogs, or more to the point another staffie as they are wonderful dogs, just learn from the sad situation.

Seriously, guys, I don't think you're reading what Cheryl has said. She took advice from different places, not just the vet. She didn't rush to have her dogs put down at the first snarl. This was way beyond what most people will have experienced.

I think you're seeing the situation through your own experiences and through what you're imagining, and from that point of view it probably does look rash. Take a step back, though, and think really what it is like to have this in your own home, with your family involved, and with your emotions doing things you didn't know they could. Terrifying is an over-used word but in these cases it is accurate.

I do think it's time to give Cheryl a break now. She came here trying to understand what happened, not to have a heap of guilt thrown at her. Because I'll bet you anything she feels enough of that without anyone else's help.

This is a very sad thread on a couple of levels. I agree with the other Ian in that with 5 mins of reading I would never judge. It's very easy sitting with your own dog and writing something that can be read as very harsh even if it wasn't intended to.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I'm sure there isn't a single person that wouldn't do something different if they knew now what they do.

Personally I think it was brave of Cheryl to join and post knowing that this would be emotive but the last line of her thread says "Can anybody give me advice and help me understand" if you can't offer any positive advice then please keep those thoughts to yourself.

I'm all in favour of free speech but not to the detriment of the OP & the forum.

Liz I just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your comment.
I tried everything I felt I could with my girls. I love them both so much and wouldn't of done what I did if I didn't think it was right or was given another option. X

Thanks for your post ian. I agree with what Ian posted too. Like I have commented previously my decision was what I felt was right. It wasn't last minute or due to me not wanting my girls. I know this may sound strange but they were like my daughters I love them so much.
A lot of people get rid of dogs because they have children I didn't. I wanted them for life. I'm just glad yourself and other people posting can help and guide me through this sad time. X

For the reasons of the forum im locking this thread