Crufts should be banned!!

Crossguns memphis belle is 20% inbred this is disgraceful

Surely that's not down to Crufts though? I mean, you were saying it's the KC letting it happen, so presumably banning Crufts wouldn't make a difference, the issue would be with working on stopping all the inbreeding?

Crossguns memphis belle <<--- winner of staffordshire bull terrier

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/inbreed/Default.aspx?breed=3080 <<--- add it to this i'm so mad at the moment

Tara wrote:Surely that's not down to Crufts though? I mean, you were saying it's the KC letting it happen, so presumably banning Crufts wouldn't make a difference, the issue would be with working on stopping all the inbreeding?

crufts shouldn't allow them to enter, it will make me feel better

Sorry not about staffs but did u see that king charles spaniel?!?!?!

Were was its bloody nose!! My Gparents had them years back in the 80's high quality blood lines and they had noses that one there looked like a pug with big ears!!!!!

it's a inbred clone freak show!!


i cant understand why anybody would support this show

Crufts shouldn't be banned IMO but whilst the KC are making some much needed changes, there are many more things they need to do.

I am very upset that that bitch (Crossguns Memphis Belle) was put through when she was clearly lame and in pain, she couldn't even stack properly...

Not happy about her inbreeding coefficient either and no doubt there will have been many more dogs with a high COI. Definitely think it's something the KC needs to look at!

That's always been the way in showing as far as I know (Which is not a lot).

All they care about is a dog that fits what they think the breed should look like, anything else does not matter to them.

How they are treated, the breeding methods used ect all mean nothing to them unfortunately.

As you say you would think they would have some sort of cut off so if the dog is over x% inbred they wont allow them to compete. Though that makes far to much sense.

johneva wrote:That's always been the way in showing as far as I know (Which is not a lot).

All they care about is a dog that fits what they think the breed should look like, anything else does not matter to them.

How they are treated, the breeding methods used ect all mean nothing to them unfortunately.

As you say you would think they would have some sort of cut off so if the dog is over x% inbred they wont allow them to compete. Though that makes far to much sense.

I don't think it's quite fair to tar all people that show with the same brush. Elmo's breeder shows and when she breeds, she breeds for health and temperament and then for type. The matings she plans, she ensures are the breed average or below when it comes to inbreeding COIs and I know a few other people that show that are the same.

I'm sure there are plenty of w***ers out there that show and don't care about the health and welfare of their dogs but there are many that do and put that first

Galadriel wrote:

johneva wrote:That's always been the way in showing as far as I know (Which is not a lot).

All they care about is a dog that fits what they think the breed should look like, anything else does not matter to them.

How they are treated, the breeding methods used ect all mean nothing to them unfortunately.

As you say you would think they would have some sort of cut off so if the dog is over x% inbred they wont allow them to compete. Though that makes far to much sense.

I don't think it's quite fair to tar all people that show with the same brush. Elmo's breeder shows and when she breeds, she breeds for health and temperament and then for type. The matings she plans, she ensures are the breed average or below when it comes to inbreeding COIs and I know a few other people that show that are the same.

I'm sure there are plenty of w***ers out there that show and don't care about the health and welfare of their dogs but there are many that do and put that first

My comment was not aimed at the people entering shows but those who hold them and set the rules.

johneva wrote:

Galadriel wrote:

johneva wrote:That's always been the way in showing as far as I know (Which is not a lot).

All they care about is a dog that fits what they think the breed should look like, anything else does not matter to them.

How they are treated, the breeding methods used ect all mean nothing to them unfortunately.

As you say you would think they would have some sort of cut off so if the dog is over x% inbred they wont allow them to compete. Though that makes far to much sense.

I don't think it's quite fair to tar all people that show with the same brush. Elmo's breeder shows and when she breeds, she breeds for health and temperament and then for type. The matings she plans, she ensures are the breed average or below when it comes to inbreeding COIs and I know a few other people that show that are the same.

I'm sure there are plenty of w***ers out there that show and don't care about the health and welfare of their dogs but there are many that do and put that first

My comment was not aimed at the people entering shows but those who hold them and set the rules.

Oh OK

At times i dont know who is worse back yard breeders or kc regsitered breeders.

the COI inbred avg went up from 6.7% to 7% so the inbreeding are increasing not decreasing, it get me so mad if these breeder did breeding right we could have 3/4 extra years longer with a our dogs

yes just noticed the coi has been rasied to 7% seems stupid in my book if it goes on like that whats to say the acseptible coi in 20 years wont be 15%+ to fool people into thinking they have dog within range
dogs over 5% are to inbreed in my opinion

The owner of the staffy said she had cramp at the time, which is why she looked a lil uncomfortable.

I dont think crufts should be banned. But I do think it could be better regulated and stricter guidelines that take into consideration the inbreeding % as the KC say anything over average is not good, but anything average or below is encouraged, keeping the lines fresh.

Crufts and KC just care about breed standard. I was so excited for the Terrier group and was gutted when I saw the Staff, she looked so unhappy. In fact she looked like the unhappiest dog at Crufts and poorly.

the dog was 20% inbred it sicken me just thinking about it

Yeah I consider Molly to be on the high side now since I have learnt about this side of breeding and she is 11%.

Duke is only 3%

Though neither of ours would do well in shows anyway and that's not why we got them either, they are not way way off standard but certainly not good enough to be good in the show ring.

I doubt it was a bit of cramp as you could see in the BOB judging she was lame then again in the group judging which I think was hours later.

I used to show Labradors as a hobby and unfortunately judges will pick the owner and not the dog. If the owner is well known to the judge then it doesn't matter what the dog is like. Showing dogs is very "clicky"and it's a case of not what you know but who you know!

Sounds about right.

be as they may with the above indescrepencies seeing staffies back at crufts and again proving they are top dogs is more important then the above.

lordmickey wrote:be as they may with the above indescrepencies seeing staffies back at crufts and again proving they are top dogs is more important then the above.

Back at crufts?

When did they not go?

Inbreeding is a real and serious issue, to say its more important they are there than the consequences of inbreeding seems somewhat madness to myself.

Memphis Belle was lame in the breed judging, the best of breed judging and the group judging. Cramp? Rubbish. The breed judges put her up because of who she is - very bad judging. As to her COI, that isn't for judges to know or to comment on, that's a matter for breeders to address & improve upon. Yes, the KC should be doing more, but ban Crufts? What purpose would that have?

lordmickey wrote:be as they may with the above indescrepencies seeing staffies back at crufts and again proving they are top dogs is more important then the above.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.

basically mean crufts shouldnt be banned over this....maybe the breeder?

it was only the 3rd year staffies have been invited (according to the woman who was doing the call outs during the staffie show this year, which by the way was the worst show host ever. could not wake that crowd!)

also i meant the most important thing about the crufts staffie show is that it brings staffies into a positive media light for once.

lordmickey wrote:
it was only the 3rd year staffies have been invited (according to the woman who was doing the call outs during the staffie show this year, which by the way was the worst show host ever. could not wake that crowd!)

also i meant the most important thing about the crufts staffie show is that it brings staffies into a positive media light for once.

Staffordshire Bull Terriers have been at Crufts since the show started. That being so, they've also been represented in the Group judging since the show started to judge groups, so I don't really understand your statement. I certainly didn't hear her say anything like that, unless you mean that Memphis Belle has won best of breed at Crufts 3 times? That's certainly possible, although again, I'm not sure.

I don't agree about the positive media light - the bitch was obviously lame and shouldn't even have won best of breed, let alone gone into the group ring.

Ahh right well the lady on the video said only 3rd year. i stand corrected on that one

i was meaning in general staffies being in good media light, didnt see the bit with the before mentioned dog but showing a lame dog is obviously bad.

Think im kinda on a different point to what you chaps are discussing.

Just disagree with the crufts being banned bit..

Why is she lame? I mean, is it just that she doesn't walk like she's meant to, or does she have a medical problem or something?

Tara wrote:Why is she lame? I mean, is it just that she doesn't walk like she's meant to, or does she have a medical problem or something?

Her owner said she had cramp.

Tara wrote:Why is she lame? I mean, is it just that she doesn't walk like she's meant to, or does she have a medical problem or something?

Jackieb wrote:

Tara wrote:Why is she lame? I mean, is it just that she doesn't walk like she's meant to, or does she have a medical problem or something?

Her owner said she had cramp.

She was lame. She was limping in the breed judging, also in the best of breed judging, so it certainly wasn't cramp!

Caryll wrote:

Tara wrote:Why is she lame? I mean, is it just that she doesn't walk like she's meant to, or does she have a medical problem or something?

Jackieb wrote:

Tara wrote:Why is she lame? I mean, is it just that she doesn't walk like she's meant to, or does she have a medical problem or something?

Her owner said she had cramp.

She was lame. She was limping in the breed judging, also in the best of breed judging, so it certainly wasn't cramp!

My thoughts exactly!

I think that both the KC and Crufts need to sit down and look at the breed standards and rejig them to make HEALTHIER dogs.

Each entry should be looked at and each dog should be scrutinized before being allowed to show.

It's a total disgrace that unhealthy/inbred dogs are being allowed to be seen as good breed standards, when they can hardly even breathe!

Totally understand your frustration.

p.s. i didn't even watch it.

I think it's up to the kc to sort out the coi.
I missed quite a bit of it this year but I think the agility with the rescue staffies last year was good positive publicity.

Hayley wrote:I think that both the KC and Crufts need to sit down and look at the breed standards and rejig them to make HEALTHIER dogs.

Each entry should be looked at and each dog should be scrutinized before being allowed to show.

Crufts is just a dog show! It doesn't, in itself, have any say over which registered dogs can enter, other than qualifying at certain shows throughout the previous year!

As already said, the KC need to speed up their plans to get rid of close inbreeding altogether - very few (reasonable minded) people disagree with that.

One of the things that The Canine Alliance has proposed is that all breeds should be health tested before being allowed to show at any shows. It's one of the things put forward to get rid of the health tests on just a handful of breeds before they can be pronounced best of breed.

If you put both of those things into the equation the health of all breeds will improve very quickly.

The judges of crufts are obviously held high, but they clearly don't look into the background of the dogs, and that needs to change! if a dog is limping or can hardly breathe, they should say that it cant show and send it off! i think shows need to look more in depth not just at what is on the surface.

Hayley wrote:The judges of crufts are obviously held high, but they clearly don't look into the background of the dogs, and that needs to change! if a dog is limping or can hardly breathe, they should say that it cant show and send it off! i think shows need to look more in depth not just at what is on the surface.

You have two different points there, Hayley. The judges can only judge what they see in front of them. They have no way of checking COI's, pedigrees, health checks etc. They aren't even allowed to see the catalogue before judging, the idea being that they are judging blind, although we all know that any kind of judging of anything will often have some bias in it. If health checking/COI's/pedigrees are to come into the equation for judging, then that will have to be done before any dog is allowed to be shown.

The other question is obvious health defects at the time of showing. Yes, if a judge considers that a dog is not in top health on the day, then he should not place that dog and should he consider it necessary he should report it to the show secretary who will inform the owner & the kennel club.

The Stafford bitch is one example, I'm afraid, of a judge seeing the owner (or the knowing the dog, anyway) and awarding the placing because of it. That's bad judging & nothing to do with the KC unless somebody complains about it in writing.

Definitely bad judging on his part!

As for the blind judging, yeah i get what you mean, but they should have someone in the bg checking the dogs and only good dogs allowed to show. It nreeds to change! I was so happy last year that they didn't let certain breeds show because of this n that, but this year its just as bad. KC needs a whole overhaul too. but it could force people to not KC reg which is scary thought too cause there are already so many un-reg dogs of god knows what breeding.

I think the problem here is a knee jerk reaction to ban Crufts because of the Stafford. Understandable - this is a staffy forum & we want our breed to be healthy!

However, look at, for example, the Working Dog winner, the Bernese - 0% COI, or the Tibetan Terrier - only 4% COI. Very healthy, and winners - so you'd be banning dogs like that as well.

crufts has to start checking these things for me to change my mind about it, also I'm on the verge of banning everything to do with the kennel club if they not fit for purpose why should we promote them!!

we dont promote back yard breeder why should we promote * who dont care about dogs just waiting about their next pay check

As I said, Steve. You're angry because of the Stafford - I understand that, but what about the two I mentioned above? You'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

Not all dogs are terribly inbred/unhealthy. Some are, yes, and I agree that it needs dealing with. But some are very good examples of their breed.

Banning Crufts will change nothing - it's a dog show.

Agree. They need to figure out what ones need helped and do it not just turn a blind eye hoping people will be honest.

i wonder how long will it take them to make health problem in Bernese because they want a inbred clone!!

Hayley wrote:Agree. They need to figure out what ones need helped and do it not just turn a blind eye hoping people will be honest.

Exactly - people need to be educated in the right way to produce healthy stock.

Steve wrote:i wonder how long will it take them to make health problem in Bernese because they want a inbred clone!!

They haven't in 50 years of showing them, so they're not likely to now.

Why not have a go at the Best in Show winner? That's a highly inbred dog - much, much worse than the staff! But they have a small gene pool, and are working towards lowering the totals.

caryll if i dont see kennel club doing stuff to help breeds to decrease COI i will pull my support for them also in the next 2/3 years, at the moment i get a feeling they are only going change when there a public out cry about it.

we wont support crufts till they start banning breeders/owners who are showing dogs that are well (not a little) well over the COI avg like the staffy winner.

Yeah a public cry out would help, unfortunately most of the public don't know or care about COI.

a public out cry got mother and son father and daughter banned.... nothing else as happen since the tv show was on

i like allow people to talk about cruft BUT caryll your excuses for these people who meant care about dogs are becoming very boring.

Personally I think a much better way to test Staffords and find a best of breed would be a show that assessed conformation, agility and temperment. As it is these three things that make an true Stafford. I'm not saying that show dogs don't possess these atributes just that we don't test them so how do we know from a show like crufts that Memphis Belle has the correct temperment and possesses the kind of agility expected for her breed.

I think we would end up with healthier dogs this way - I realise that has nothing to do with inbreeding but there could also be a maximum COI allowed.

Steve wrote:i like allow people to talk about cruft BUT caryll your excuses for these people who meant care about dogs are becoming very boring.

What boring excuses am I making? I'm not excusing the KC - they're the ones that need to do more - but Crufts is just a dog show. You might just as well ban all dog shows.

However, as I'm boring you, I'll shut up.