The importance of lead walking..

I was wondering what your opinions were on exercise other than the usual on lead walking..I hear many conflicting opinions on this with some thinking straight lead walks 3 times daily are vital and if you don't this you're awful, and others not so much.

I'm working with many reactive dogs at the moment (my own dog being one of them!) and walks for them are basically just training time, it's not a time for them to relax or enjoy life as they're terrified of the world and spend the entire walk on edge and alert! Avoiding the problem isn't ever going to make it better, so the on-lead walks would need to happen at least 3 times weekly for training and desensitization purposes, but as you know these complaints are very rarely are cured, simply managed. I'm trying to think of other ways to give these dogs exercise in an environment where they can be fully relaxed.

I'm looking to rent a field in a rural area where I can take them for off lead runs without any surprises, practice agility and where they can be socialized with dogs in a controlled environment, not badly behaved off lead dogs getting in their faces. We also play training games for a mental work out.

So for example, rather than loads of lead walks a day, their routine would be an hour in the field, and 30 minutes of brain training a day with 3-4 training walks a week. What do you think?

It's hard to say, that might be fine for one dog but not another. Exercise requirements can vary an awful lot just within one breed.

The field is a great idea although you may have more luck renting an equestrian arena (indoor ones are usually fully secure and great for in winter!)

I feel a dog needs to explore, they need there space, I couldn't imagine keeping Moo onlead, but if needs must having there own field to train in would be amazing

Totally agree Janey they do need new sights and smells, in this sense though i'm talking unsocialised adult dogs that are fully reactive (animals/traffic/noises) and cannot be safely let off lead, or in some cases have to be muzzled at all times...

All dogs should be walked on lead along roads & if not fully controllable then in all public places, including parks.

You say that the fear these dogs show can't be cured, only managed? In some cases maybe, but a lot can be cured by desensitisation. You cannot do that away from the things that scare them.

Sorry, think I may have worded that a little wrong, it's been a long day! In some cases it can be cured for sure, more successfully in a home environment, but I know many owners and trainers that simply have to manage their dogs behaviour despite trying every method in the book. I'm talking severe cruelty cases and dogs trained to do unsightly things, not your every day dog.

Basically, what i'm trying to say is would it not be better for them to get their main exercise in a place where they could relax completely and just run, play and do the usual doggy things without encountering the elements that put them on edge, with training walks simply for desensitisation? Or do they really need to be subjected to everything they fear three times a day on a daily basis?

I make sure TO subject chance to the sights and sounds that he reacts to, it's made an awful lot of difference to him.

Also he is people aggressive so i try to get him to meet or be in a situation with lots of people as often as possible, and as you can see from recent walks it is working for him

As long as they are exercised safely I think that is what matters. It's also important for them to be exposed to as many different situations as possible.

That's brilliant that he's getting on so well Ella How long have you had him?? And how often do you subject him to them? Bis is people aggressive (men especially) too but has gotten a lot better with careful interactions and lives with me and my male housemate now without a single issue. She was lead reactive to practically everything when I got her but is a lot better nowadays, although she'll never be a dog park dog and she doesn't seem to "enjoy" walks in public places if you will.. she's much happier running around like a loon somewhere quiet where she won't be spooked.

Got a few aggressive/reactive dogs in kennels though that aren't quite so biddable and it's a lot harder to build a strong bond with them in that environment. They just never get a chance to relax and on lead walks don't seem to help that.. Was just curious to see what others thought really!

Whilst I think that for free running & fun then yes, a private field would be great, you can't stop, for example, someone climbing in to that field & maybe scaring the dog - would he not then look at the field as a place for fear?

I'm one of the old school that feel that all dogs should have 3 walks a day - not necessarily all on lead & through towns/crowds/traffic etc, but three 'outings' to relieve their bladder, bowels & boredom. If part of those walks is on a private piece of land, great; I'd love to be able to do that with Dempsey.

If you can also address behavioural problems as well, that's great.

I will probably be shouted down here, but if a dog is so mentally traumatised that it cannot be trained to accept every day situations, then maybe that dog should be given peace & pts.

Rachel33 wrote:That's brilliant that he's getting on so well Ella How long have you had him?? And how often do you subject him to them? Bis is people aggressive (men especially) too but has gotten a lot better with careful interactions and lives with me and my male housemate now without a single issue. She was lead reactive to practically everything when I got her but is a lot better nowadays, although she'll never be a dog park dog and she doesn't seem to "enjoy" walks in public places if you will.. she's much happier running around like a loon somewhere quiet where she won't be spooked.

Got a few aggressive/reactive dogs in kennels though that aren't quite so biddable and it's a lot harder to build a strong bond with them in that environment. They just never get a chance to relax and on lead walks don't seem to help that.. Was just curious to see what others thought really!

I've had him a year in 2 days, and see he is people aggressive to everyone including kids, doesn't matter. People still cannot walk into the house without him being held on a very short lead, and he will still growl and lunge at some people.

I walk them at least twice a day and Chance can't go off lead so we walk along side busy road where i know people will be walking at least one of them walks, so it is a daily thing.

Perhaps, but I would assume that is much less likely to happen than on a walk in a public place, when no matter how many times you tell people and their dogs not to approach your dog, they still insist on doing so and making full eye contact throughout I'd love to be able to give all of my dogs 3 walks per day it's great that Dempsey gets that But unfortunately I have 20 dogs to look after and one to tend to when I get home! I do agree that if he/she is going to have no quality of life that pts is the best option, but with the way that people treat dogs nowadays we have ever growing numbers of extreme cases on our hands and i'd have a lot of dead dogs if I gave up on them that easily in kennels, but foster homes experienced enough to assess them within in a home environment are like gold dust.. catch 22!

Do you have any information about his background Ella? Has he ever actually bitten anyone? Ah okay, so would you say that if you didn't do that every single day his behaviour would worsen or his training would heavily diminish?

Rachel33 wrote:I was wondering what your opinions were on exercise other than the usual on lead walking..I hear many conflicting opinions on this with some thinking straight lead walks 3 times daily are vital and if you don't this you're awful, and others not so much.

I can't do 3 walks a day with my dogs, I don't have the mobility now to walk more than one of them. My dogs are exercised on lead with me in a mobility scooter, my foster boy I walk with the help of a tripod walker. Apart from my foster boy my dogs have 2 off lead runs a week, I am not allowed by the rescue to let Jethro off the lead. My dogs are all fit and well, all have the right amount of muscle and get enough physical exercise but like most dogs they could take more.

I'm working with many reactive dogs at the moment (my own dog being one of them!) and walks for them are basically just training time, it's not a time for them to relax or enjoy life as they're terrified of the world and spend the entire walk on edge and alert! Avoiding the problem isn't ever going to make it better, so the on-lead walks would need to happen at least 3 times weekly for training and desensitization purposes, but as you know these complaints are very rarely are cured, simply managed. I'm trying to think of other ways to give these dogs exercise in an environment where they can be fully relaxed.

I have turned round reactive dogs completely and helped others with theirs, most were in the USA, I used to be one of the main people giving advice on Victoria Stillwell's forum were a lot of the owners needing help with reactive dogs. I can go into this in more detail if you want me to but you can turn these dogs round.

I'm looking to rent a field in a rural area where I can take them for off lead runs without any surprises, practice agility and where they can be socialized with dogs in a controlled environment, not badly behaved off lead dogs getting in their faces. We also play training games for a mental work out.

So for example, rather than loads of lead walks a day, their routine would be an hour in the field, and 30 minutes of brain training a day with 3-4 training walks a week. What do you think?

Have a talk with either Penel or Laura at http://dogcommunication.co.uk/, they are doing a wonderful job with dogs especially reactive dogs. Their dogs are fantastic and safety of all dogs is the main priority. Laura and Penel are friends and really understand dogs, the English Setter in the Wheetabix chocolate advert that talks is one of their Dogs. I wish I lived close enough so I could take Bonnie as she doesn't know how to introduce herself to strange dogs, she never learnt how to do this when she was a pup.

I would love to hear some of your success stories that would be lovely I have made some real progress and rehomed many dogs, but some of our long stayers in kennels are limited on how much they can improve in that environment, and i've been training with my own adopted dog for over a year now and whilst we have progressed greatly I don't feel that she will ever be a "normal" dog which is why I say that her complaints are managed and not completely cured. Thanks for the link, will contact them! I'm at university studying canine psychology, but i'm only at the basic behavioural complaints stage, haven't gotten into the nitty grittys of aggression yet so i'm just learning as I go along really!

Rachel33 wrote:Perhaps, but I would assume that is much less likely to happen than on a walk in a public place, when no matter how many times you tell people and their dogs not to approach your dog, they still insist on doing so and making full eye contact throughout I'd love to be able to give all of my dogs 3 walks per day it's great that Dempsey gets that But unfortunately I have 20 dogs to look after and one to tend to when I get home! I do agree that if he/she is going to have no quality of life that pts is the best option, but with the way that people treat dogs nowadays we have ever growing numbers of extreme cases on our hands and i'd have a lot of dead dogs if I gave up on them that easily in kennels, but foster homes experienced enough to assess them within in a home environment are like gold dust.. catch 22!

Do you have any information about his background Ella? Has he ever actually bitten anyone? Ah okay, so would you say that if you didn't do that every single day his behaviour would worsen or his training would heavily diminish?

Yes he's bitten me attempting to get to someone else. Chance is an ex fighting/guard dog, beaten and burnt as a pup, massively unsocialised. With Chance routine is massively important, for example if we don't have any visitors to the house for a long time then he is really defensive and bares teeth/growls etc etc so yes his behaviour does get worse yes

Ah okay, just curious as I know a dog with what sounds like a similar level of people aggression, albeit more fear based. Same breed, last of litter beaten daily, locked in a room til he was 7 months old with no socialization etc. But even after years of training with him he just can't cope with the world, he can handle a small number of controlled visits to the house, but by handle I mean backing away and roaring at people if they get too close and he's much happier to stay in his crate but he's got a small handful of human friends that he will let stroke him. However, his behaviour hasn't worsened without the constant socialization, he's much happier and more content with knowing what's going to happen day to day and who he's going to meet, he lives in a valley so people are very rarely seen on walks. However, Bis does get worse too when we don't have visitors for a while so I guess it comes down to the individual dog.

ella wrote:
Yes he's bitten me attempting to get to someone else. Chance is an ex fighting/guard dog, beaten and burnt as a pup, massively unsocialised. With Chance routine is massively important, for example if we don't have any visitors to the house for a long time then he is really defensive and bares teeth/growls etc etc so yes his behaviour does get worse yes

Sorry if it looks like I am taking over this forum, Ella can you start a thread of your own please? Give as much information as you can about Chance including food and exercise, what you are doing to help him, what has worked and what hasn't, the more information the better.

There are some very good people on here and by having your own thread help and advice can be directed to your's and your dog's needs.

Fighting dogs in the USA have been completely turned round using positive methods, it does take time and it looks like you are on the right track but as you say, you have to manage first for safety, Chance can learn a lot by that management.

I'll do one later if youd like suppose it could help others. I'm on iPod at the minute so would take to long!

Edited to add: with chance as you say it is very much about managing other people's safety, he for whatever reason formed a massive bond with me and so I'm the only one who can effectively calm him down.

I will say not all of chances problems are behavioural, he was very ill when he came to us but has mental problems aswell.

Oh you've probably not seen my other threads but I won't use trainers/behaviourists. We have overcome his issues our selves

I'll start a new thread about Chance Cyril baby......

Yes please, start another thread for Chase.

Why won't you use a trainer or behaviourist? Why I am asking I have seem many really bad ones, some make the dogs dangerous but there are some good ones about if you can find them. like you I have turned my dogs round myself.

Personally won't I no there are bad and good like most things but i won't and it's my personal preference