Harness vs Lead

First topic message reminder :

This might not be in the right section, so I apologise if it's not. We got Loki a harness a while back after being told that all the pulling he does when he's excited could do him damage. I went to this new puppy class today to see what it was like, and first thing I was told was to put the lead onto his collar because it gives you more control. I know it does often give more control because it's a more sensitive area, but will it do damage? He does pull so much when around dogs, it frightens me that he's choking himself, so does the benefit of having more control outweigh the risk of damage, or is there a high risk of damage?

It's annoying that there are so many different training methods, I don't know which is better. The puppy classes we went to today are highly recomment, really great trainers with so much experience, but they believe in that, you know, pack leader stuff. I believe in it myself, but I don't believe that you need to use any physical means in order to achieve it, which they do (poking the dog when it barks and telling them "shhh," etc.). I don't know, I'm very confused as to what's better for them. I'd never hit Loki or cause him any pain, but a poke doesn't hurt, and since these people seem very popular, I'm wondering if that's the right way to go, or if it's counter-productive?

Sorry, more than one question there, but it's been confusing. On another note, Loki did have a go at the agility and adored it he did the entire thing and when we did recall, the man mentioned that Loki has an incredibly strong bond with me, so that made me happy. Oh, and he can now, FINALLY, lie down! so not a bad day, just a confusing one.

Galadriel wrote:For the OP:

This is the best way of teaching a watch me command IMO as you don't have to worry about fading a lure and then the hand signal.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/pay-attention

It also mentions the important rule when teaching a new behaviour - not to add a cue word untill the dog is fairly reliably performing the behaviour

Why shouldn't you add a cue word until the dog's already doing it? I've always put the word there along with everything else...whoops.

ANattyRat wrote:

Galadriel wrote:For the OP:

This is the best way of teaching a watch me command IMO as you don't have to worry about fading a lure and then the hand signal.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/pay-attention

It also mentions the important rule when teaching a new behaviour - not to add a cue word untill the dog is fairly reliably performing the behaviour

Why shouldn't you add a cue word until the dog's already doing it? I've always put the word there along with everything else...whoops.

So have I. Just different methods/opinions.

ANattyRat wrote:

Galadriel wrote:For the OP:

This is the best way of teaching a watch me command IMO as you don't have to worry about fading a lure and then the hand signal.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/pay-attention

It also mentions the important rule when teaching a new behaviour - not to add a cue word untill the dog is fairly reliably performing the behaviour

Why shouldn't you add a cue word until the dog's already doing it? I've always put the word there along with everything else...whoops.

I think the reason is so the dog doesn't form any superstitious associations with a cue word.

In other words, if you use the cue word before the behaviour is reliable then the cue can come to mean something other than we intend it to mean to the dog which is just confusing and slows the learning down and often results in a 'poisoned' cue - a cue that means little to a dog and results in a behaviour that sometimes occurs and sometimes does not.

Not sure if I've explained that well enough?

I have to say I've never had a problem, but as I said, different methods/opinions. Whatever works is valid!

I disagree that whatever works is valid in this context because positive punishment can work, negative reinforcement can work but I don't think either have any place in training a dog.

Some things are fact, like learning theory. http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/zoology/mammals/dog-training1.htm

In terms of adding a verbal cue, you get better results if you add a cue after you've taught a behaviour. You might get there teaching the cue at the start but it will take longer, pretty sure that's a fact

Galadriel wrote:I disagree that whatever works is valid in this context because positive punishment can work, negative reinforcement can work but I don't think either have any place in training a dog.

I meant whichever of the two methods we were discussing, not every method under the sun.

Galadriel wrote:
In terms of adding a verbal cue, you get better results if you add a cue after you've taught a behaviour. You might get there teaching the cue at the start but it will take longer, pretty sure that's a fact

I've never tested it to see if that's the case, have you? All I can say is that I've never had a problem with the method I use.

Galadriel wrote:
I think the reason is so the dog doesn't form any superstitious associations with a cue word.

In other words, if you use the cue word before the behaviour is reliable then the cue can come to mean something other than we intend it to mean to the dog which is just confusing and slows the learning down and often results in a 'poisoned' cue - a cue that means little to a dog and results in a behaviour that sometimes occurs and sometimes does not.

Not sure if I've explained that well enough?

It depends on what I am teaching if I put the cue word, for things like sit and down I used hand signals before the voice command, once my dog has got the hand signal I then put the word on. When my dog is old and going deaf, I can still get him to dow what I want with the hand signals.

With "Watch me", I have the command when I am teaching this, I use the word "Look" as it is shorter, can be said quicker and easier for the dog to learn.

I hold a treat between my eyes, as my dog is following my hand up I give the command, when their eyes go immediagtely to between my eyes about the time I give the command I move the treat to the side of one of my eyes. Continueing with letting my dog see the treat I gradually move the treat down my face but always insist on my dog looking at my eyes before he gets it. I only give the command once then wait, what I do find is my dog will continue to look at the treat, if I stay quiet and leave the treat there eventually my dog looks at my eyes, then they get the treat.

I never work more than 5 minutes with a new trick, I prefer to do 5 minutes s everal times a day than extend the time I am teaching, I find that dogs pick things up quicker that way.

Fair doos

I guess I have tried it as I too used to train using the verbal command from the start with a new behaviour and whilst I never timed it, I do think the behaviours I've trained since changing over to adding a verbal cue at a later date are more reliable and were learnt quicker.

I've always captured when teaching focus (even before I knew it was called capturing!) and now have a very reliable focus (I use the word focus instead of watch me) and even a default focus when ever I have something I have that my dogs want be it a ball, their dinner, treat, when I break during tug etc. I've never lured to teach focus so I can't compare, however, for many behaviours, I find it easier to shape/capture as you don't have to spend time fading the lure. (Sit, down and stand are probably a few of the exceptions.)

Adding the verbal cue after also applies to lured behaviours.

My beagle cross had been half taught 'beg' when we got her, it was about the only thing she had been taught but it was dodgy, sometimes she'd perform, sometimes she wouldn't so I retrained it, luring actually lured the first few, then faded to a hand signal, then when she was repeatedly performing to the hand signal, I added in the cue word (a new one) 'please' a second before the hand signal, then I faded the hand signal and now she does the best 'please' every time

One of the reasons I love positive training is there are so many ways we can teach our dogs. every dog is different and so is every owner, if we put our experiences up the person needing the information can do what suits them, if it doesn't work they can try a different way.

Slightly off-topic but since we got off-topic quite a while ago why do dogs still do what you tell them to do even after you've stopped rewarding them with treats every time? I mean, Loki will do anything for food, he'll learn something very quickly if he gets some food out of it lol and I still use treats for newer things, but simple things like sit, stay, etc., he'll do without any real motivation, and I was just wondering what a dog's motivation is to do something after they know they won't get something really AMAZING from it?

I've always put it down to conditioning.

ANattyRat wrote:Slightly off-topic but since we got off-topic quite a while ago why do dogs still do what you tell them to do even after you've stopped rewarding them with treats every time? I mean, Loki will do anything for food, he'll learn something very quickly if he gets some food out of it lol and I still use treats for newer things, but simple things like sit, stay, etc., he'll do without any real motivation, and I was just wondering what a dog's motivation is to do something after they know they won't get something really AMAZING from it?

Because there's always a chance and because they often do get reinforced without us being concious of it.

If you want really strong responses, you should put it on a variable schedule which means rewarding every so often, you can do it randomly or choose to only reward the fastest/most actuate responses. It's like gambling for the dog, you become a human fruit machine with which they can play, never knowing if or what reward they'll get.

TBH, most people do do that in real life without realising it by doing things like clipping the lead on whilst the dog is sitting, reinforcing the sitting with a trip outside or reinforcing a wait with putting dinner down.

Behaviours do get reinforced whether we're conscious of it or not otherwise they wouldn't occur anymore.

ANattyRat wrote:Slightly off-topic but since we got off-topic quite a while ago why do dogs still do what you tell them to do even after you've stopped rewarding them with treats every time? I mean, Loki will do anything for food, he'll learn something very quickly if he gets some food out of it lol and I still use treats for newer things, but simple things like sit, stay, etc., he'll do without any real motivation, and I was just wondering what a dog's motivation is to do something after they know they won't get something really AMAZING from it?

We get them into the habit of doing something when we say a word. If we teach them to sit in the kitchen, we then go into the living room, hall, back garden, at the kerb before we cross a road, we get a dog to sit by habit when we give the word sit. When it becomes a habit rewards aren't as essential but it is an idea to give a reward now and again. Pity it isn't as easy to teach our children or partners.

That's what I said - conditioning.

Sorry I don't know the terminology, what do you mean my conditioning please?

Exactly what you've just described - the reaction to a repeated stimulus. Habit if you like.

Classical conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Operant conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Galadriel wrote:Classical conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Operant conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Which is basically what I just said.

Caryll wrote:

Galadriel wrote:Classical conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Operant conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

Which is basically what I just said.

I'm not saying it isn't

Galadriel wrote:Classical conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Operant conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

I understand Classical conditioning but operant is way above me.

I am a qualified horse riding instructor and know from experience when teaching people to ride how you word things is really important, beginners, on here owners with very little experience, won't understand the terminology and won't ask in case they look stupid. When the same riders get more advanced I can start to bring in terminology when explaining things to them. One lady had been riding for some time with quite a lot of instructors but none could get her to sit upright, I quietly went up to her and said, "You have a serious problem, your boobs are too big", she burst out laughing and the problem had gone.

When I was training our instructor kept saying, "Inside leg to outside hand", we were all experienced riders but didn't understand that so we asked what she meant. She didn't know, she was just repeating what she had been told when training. Eventually we did work it out and told her what was meant.

What I am trying to say is, please take into account that not every member knows the terminology, it can be brought in but in a way were people understand.

Cyril baby wrote:What I am trying to say is, please take into account that not every member knows the terminology, it can be brought in but in a way were people understand.

Personally I think the word 'conditioning' would have had far more meaning to most people than the explanatory links!

Hi all, in my opinion.. going to duck after saying this.. every dog/human relationship is different and whether you use a collar or harness is entirely up to you and what you are both comfortable using. Depending on where i'm going with my boy.. depends what i put on him. He's happy in a harness or a collar.. If I know we're going round "the cat areas" it's harness... he's a terrier and given the opportunity?? Anyway...
"Watch Me" I teach by holding a treat to his nose and dragging it back towards my face.. when his eyeline follows the treat to my face and i get the eye contact, He gets rewarded with the treat and again the command "Watch me, Good boy" Repeat this a few times and they generally crack on pretty quick

Cyril baby wrote:

Galadriel wrote:Classical conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Operant conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

I understand Classical conditioning but operant is way above me.

I am a qualified horse riding instructor and know from experience when teaching people to ride how you word things is really important, beginners, on here owners with very little experience, won't understand the terminology and won't ask in case they look stupid. When the same riders get more advanced I can start to bring in terminology when explaining things to them. One lady had been riding for some time with quite a lot of instructors but none could get her to sit upright, I quietly went up to her and said, "You have a serious problem, your boobs are too big", she burst out laughing and the problem had gone.

When I was training our instructor kept saying, "Inside leg to outside hand", we were all experienced riders but didn't understand that so we asked what she meant. She didn't know, she was just repeating what she had been told when training. Eventually we did work it out and told her what was meant.

What I am trying to say is, please take into account that not every member knows the terminology, it can be brought in but in a way were people understand.

I completely understand what you are saying.

Unfortunately I'm the worlds worst teacher and not very good at explaining things which is why I always try and put links to things to explain what I'm on about! I can also be quite pedantic and think things should be called what they're called otherwise what's the point of naming and defining things? I've also never understood that not asking thing, I'd much rather look stupid then gain knowledge than stay quiet and stay stupid! Probably another reason I'm a hopeless teacher!

I also gave up smoking 2 days ago so not feeling overly accommodating, please forgive me

As you know, classical conditioning is where a conditioned stimulus comes to indicate the occurrence of an unconditioned stimulus. An unconditioned stimulus being something we need no conditioning to desire like food or sex. So if you always say the word 'dinner' before feeding your dogs for example, the word dinner becomes a conditioned stimulus to indicate that food (the unconditioned stimulus) is on its way.

Operant conditioning is where an individual's behaviour is modified by the consequences of that behaviour. In operant conditioning, there are four ways of modifying a behaviour:

Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment.

Positive = Adding something
Negative = Removing something
Reinforcement = Increasing the likelihood a behaviour will happen again
Punishment = Decreasing the likelihood a behaviour will happen again.

So in dog training:

Positive reinforcement is increasing the likelihood of a desired behaviour happening again by adding something the dog likes to the dog. Giving the dog a piece of chicken for sitting on cue for example.

Negative reinforcement is increasing the likelihood of a desired behaviour happening again by removing something the dog doesn't like. Using a shock collar to shock a dog that's running away from you then stopping the shock when the dog starts to run towards you for example.

Positive punishment is decreasing the likelihood of an undesired behaviour happening again by adding something the dog doesn't like. Giving a 'check'/jarring your dog's neck if he barks at another dog for example.

Negative punishment is decreasing the likelihood of an undesired behaviour happening again by removing something the dog likes. Ignoring the dog (removing your attention) when he's jumping up at you for example.

Negative reinforcement and positive punishments are often used by 'traditional' out dated trainers and cause a lot of 'wear and tear' to the dog, they can often be downright cruel and abusive too IMO.

Positive reinforcement and negative punishments are the best ways to train a dog, being more effective and causing the least amount of wear and tear.

That's the best I can do! Hope it helps

Completely off topic but do you have a horse/horses of your own? I haven't had a horse or ridden for quite a few years now and seriously miss all things horsey!

Galadriel wrote:Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment.

Positive = Adding something
Negative = Removing something
Reinforcement = Increasing the likelihood a behaviour will happen again
Punishment = Decreasing the likelihood a behaviour will happen again.

So in dog training:

Positive reinforcement is increasing the likelihood of a desired behaviour happening again by adding something the dog likes to the dog. Giving the dog a piece of chicken for sitting on cue for example.

Negative reinforcement is increasing the likelihood of a desired behaviour happening again by removing something the dog doesn't like. Using a shock collar to shock a dog that's running away from you then stopping the shock when the dog starts to run towards you for example.

Positive punishment is decreasing the likelihood of an undesired behaviour happening again by adding something the dog doesn't like. Giving a 'check'/jarring your dog's neck if he barks at another dog for example.

Negative punishment is decreasing the likelihood of an undesired behaviour happening again by removing something the dog likes. Ignoring the dog (removing your attention) when he's jumping up at you for example.

Negative reinforcement and positive punishments are often used by 'traditional' out dated trainers and cause a lot of 'wear and tear' to the dog, they can often be downright cruel and abusive too IMO.

Positive reinforcement and negative punishments are the best ways to train a dog, being more effective and causing the least amount of wear and tear.

That's the best I can do! Hope it helps

Thank you! I've been trying to find a link to explain that for ages!

Galadriel wrote:

Cyril baby wrote:

Galadriel wrote:Classical conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Operant conditioning - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning

I understand Classical conditioning but operant is way above me.

I am a qualified horse riding instructor and know from experience when teaching people to ride how you word things is really important, beginners, on here owners with very little experience, won't understand the terminology and won't ask in case they look stupid. When the same riders get more advanced I can start to bring in terminology when explaining things to them. One lady had been riding for some time with quite a lot of instructors but none could get her to sit upright, I quietly went up to her and said, "You have a serious problem, your boobs are too big", she burst out laughing and the problem had gone.

When I was training our instructor kept saying, "Inside leg to outside hand", we were all experienced riders but didn't understand that so we asked what she meant. She didn't know, she was just repeating what she had been told when training. Eventually we did work it out and told her what was meant.

What I am trying to say is, please take into account that not every member knows the terminology, it can be brought in but in a way were people understand.

I completely understand what you are saying.

Unfortunately I'm the worlds worst teacher and not very good at explaining things which is why I always try and put links to things to explain what I'm on about! I can also be quite pedantic and think things should be called what they're called otherwise what's the point of naming and defining things? I've also never understood that not asking thing, I'd much rather look stupid then gain knowledge than stay quiet and stay stupid! Probably another reason I'm a hopeless teacher!

I also gave up smoking 2 days ago so not feeling overly accommodating, please forgive me

As you know, classical conditioning is where a conditioned stimulus comes to indicate the occurrence of an unconditioned stimulus. An unconditioned stimulus being something we need no conditioning to desire like food or sex. So if you always say the word 'dinner' before feeding your dogs for example, the word dinner becomes a conditioned stimulus to indicate that food (the unconditioned stimulus) is on its way.

Operant conditioning is where an individual's behaviour is modified by the consequences of that behaviour. In operant conditioning, there are four ways of modifying a behaviour:

Positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment.

Positive = Adding something
Negative = Removing something
Reinforcement = Increasing the likelihood a behaviour will happen again
Punishment = Decreasing the likelihood a behaviour will happen again.

So in dog training:

Positive reinforcement is increasing the likelihood of a desired behaviour happening again by adding something the dog likes to the dog. Giving the dog a piece of chicken for sitting on cue for example.

Negative reinforcement is increasing the likelihood of a desired behaviour happening again by removing something the dog doesn't like. Using a shock collar to shock a dog that's running away from you then stopping the shock when the dog starts to run towards you for example.

Positive punishment is decreasing the likelihood of an undesired behaviour happening again by adding something the dog doesn't like. Giving a 'check'/jarring your dog's neck if he barks at another dog for example.

Negative punishment is decreasing the likelihood of an undesired behaviour happening again by removing something the dog likes. Ignoring the dog (removing your attention) when he's jumping up at you for example.

Negative reinforcement and positive punishments are often used by 'traditional' out dated trainers and cause a lot of 'wear and tear' to the dog, they can often be downright cruel and abusive too IMO.

Positive reinforcement and negative punishments are the best ways to train a dog, being more effective and causing the least amount of wear and tear.

That's the best I can do! Hope it helps

Completely off topic but do you have a horse/horses of your own? I haven't had a horse or ridden for quite a few years now and seriously miss all things horsey!

Great post!

Thank you Galadriel I am saving that to study it more.

Talking about the terminilogy, I had a conversation about this with someone who used to be a tutor at the Animal Care College, she may still be there. It came as quite a shock to her when I brought this up but when she thought about it she said that unless you are teaching at a high level, terminology is not needed. Since then she doesn't use it as much and has found that others understand a lot easier.

Personnally I don't use Positive Reinforcemnt the way I should, I prefer to say Positive training. A dog will only do what works, if it doesn't work he will stop doing it.

Dolly will open the back door and let all my dogs out, all I have done is to keep the door locked, I have slipped up a few times so she didn't stop this as quickly as she could have but now I don't need to lock the door, the behaviour has stopped working. I haven't had the stress of her letting the dogs out, I haven't had to concentrate on teaching her not to do that but can work on other things, and the unwanted behaviour has stopped.

Another example, a friend had a dog that would sit in the window and create everytime anyone or thing went past, her neighbours were complaining about this dog. She had tried training him not to do this but the dog was so focused he didn't hear her. She moved the furniture away and he still got there. In despeeration she covered the windows with that sticky backed stuff that gives the windows a frosted look, it worked. She left it up for about 2 years, too frightened to take it down and the dog no longer does this.

Positive training is about setting my dog up to do what I want him to, with a new dog I lure with quite a few things, but I try not to ask my dog to do something I know he won't do because his attention is somewhere else, that goes especially to recall. If my dog is focused on something and I need him back, I don't call him I hide, usually behind a bush but if there are not bushes I have been known to lie flat on the grass. When he is no longer focused he realises that mum has gone and tries to find me. When a dog is focused on something no matter how many times you call they can't hear you, but by not being around when he is no longer focused he starts to check back to make sure I am still around a lot more.

I have had a horse, bought him when he was 7 months old, he was put down when he was 32 years old. He taught my sons to ride and they went to the Pony club with him, they were in several of their teams with him. I broke him to harness and went to the supermarket every week to get my groceries as well. I took hay with me for him while I was shopping and the supermarket's customers increased, everyone wanted to see the horse in the car park.