Harness vs Lead

This might not be in the right section, so I apologise if it's not. We got Loki a harness a while back after being told that all the pulling he does when he's excited could do him damage. I went to this new puppy class today to see what it was like, and first thing I was told was to put the lead onto his collar because it gives you more control. I know it does often give more control because it's a more sensitive area, but will it do damage? He does pull so much when around dogs, it frightens me that he's choking himself, so does the benefit of having more control outweigh the risk of damage, or is there a high risk of damage?

It's annoying that there are so many different training methods, I don't know which is better. The puppy classes we went to today are highly recomment, really great trainers with so much experience, but they believe in that, you know, pack leader stuff. I believe in it myself, but I don't believe that you need to use any physical means in order to achieve it, which they do (poking the dog when it barks and telling them "shhh," etc.). I don't know, I'm very confused as to what's better for them. I'd never hit Loki or cause him any pain, but a poke doesn't hurt, and since these people seem very popular, I'm wondering if that's the right way to go, or if it's counter-productive?

Sorry, more than one question there, but it's been confusing. On another note, Loki did have a go at the agility and adored it he did the entire thing and when we did recall, the man mentioned that Loki has an incredibly strong bond with me, so that made me happy. Oh, and he can now, FINALLY, lie down! so not a bad day, just a confusing one.

i worry about that too to be honest with you. Blayde only pulls bad now when we first go out, but still insists in always walkin infront of me. i make sure he's wearing a harness when we go busy places because as soon as someone speaks to him he wants to jump up them and i find i have a lot more control of him rather than with a collar on.

well done to loki on learning the command lie down and enjoying the agility. aww and thats really nice the the trainer noticed your strong bond

I prefer the harness for security , Tilly hasn't got a particularly big head and she has slipped her collar on a couple of occasions as a consequence , she can't do that on her harness

Loki's grown into his collar, it won't slip over his head, so that's not an issue with me, it's more just...is it likely it'll do damage if he's pulling on the collar so much when he's around people and dogs? He's fine on the lead when walking normally, just when there are people or dogs very close to him that he pulls like crazy, so I worry. I have him on the harness now, but they said about needing a collar for more control, so it's confusing. Hard to know which type of training is better for your dog :\

I don't like harnesses because I don't have enough control over the head. That's not to say they're no good - it's just my own preference! I also use a half check because Dempsey pulls out of flat collars unless they're over 2" wide!

Most training classes like a flat collar just for the training & then you can swap over to the harness afterwards.

If you train your dog to walk properly on the lead then they will do no damage at all to themselves with a collar.

i think its a personal choice depending on how your dog is.after years of having a lead on sash last year we got her a harness and have found it so much better,i find she does'nt pull and i wont go back to a collar now,thats just my choice thou

Caryll wrote:I don't like harnesses because I don't have enough control over the head. That's not to say they're no good - it's just my own preference! I also use a half check because Dempsey pulls out of flat collars unless they're over 2" wide!

Most training classes like a flat collar just for the training & then you can swap over to the harness afterwards.

If you train your dog to walk properly on the lead then they will do no damage at all to themselves with a collar.

I agree , Ty is the same. We use a harness for some things like fly-ball. Its easier to hold your dog ready with a harness. Ty walks well on his but I just dont have the control I do with the half-check so we usually walk with either the flat collar or the half-check.

But while he's learning not to pull towards dogs and people, is there a risk of him hurting himself, or is it OK? Thanks for all the replies by the way, everyone

What you need to do is anticipate the behaviour (all of a dog's actions are 'behaviours' - it's only humans who seperate them into 'good' or 'bad').

You need to teach the 'watch' command so that you can get him to sit & watch you rather than pull like a tank towards the nearest human or dog. As soon as he looks at a dog or human put him in the sit, tell him to 'watch' and as soon as he does, treat him.

ANattyRat wrote:But while he's learning not to pull towards dogs and people, is there a risk of him hurting himself, or is it OK? Thanks for all the replies by the way, everyone

You could use both and just change the lead around depending on the situation. This is what we do.

I read that when you see people or dogs, the best thing to do is to walk past as though it's not a big deal, because if you stopped, the dog would think there's something to get excited about. But I think I'm going to try that method anyway, we've tried that a few times already, so it's worth a go. Thanks

ANattyRat wrote:I read that when you see people or dogs, the best thing to do is to walk past as though it's not a big deal, because if you stopped, the dog would think there's something to get excited about.

The trouble with that is if you have a very reactive dog it will, as you have seen, lunge & pull towards the other dog/human & make things very difficult for you. In that situation the dog will learn nothing.

ANattyRat wrote:But while he's learning not to pull towards dogs and people, is there a risk of him hurting himself, or is it OK? Thanks for all the replies by the way, everyone

Yes, there is a good chance that a collar can damage the neck, trachea and larynx, I adopted a lovely Staffy who needed to have a tracheotomy in, my vet said that it was probably done by her pulling on the lead, this is Ellie's story http://tracheotomy-in-dogs.yolasite.com/

I find it better to control the body than the head, if a dog tries to leap about in a collar they can, if they try it on a harness it is a lot more difficult. The design of the harness is relevant, the strap that goes round the front of the chest can encourage pulling, horses often have a strap in that position when pulling a cart. If the strap goes down either side of the neck, the dog can't push into it as well so they can't pull as much.

Teaching a dog to do something were we use the sensitive parts of the body to me is not acceptable and any trainer who does that doesn't get my business. I once went to see a training class with the intention of taking Bonnie, someone arrived with a harness on his dog, he was told to clip the lead onto the collar to give more control. Their method of teaching a dog to walk on a lead was to yank the dog back shouting "Heel" when they did. If someone put a collar on me, yanked me back while shouting "Heel", I would think that the word "Heel" meant I was getting hurt. Hurting me wouldn't teach me to walk next to that person.

Our natural pace is walk, a dog's natural pace is trot, we have to teach our dogs to walk next to us and to do that we also need to teach them how to balance properly at a slower place, you can do this by walking round things or over poles on the ground. These will also help with teaching the dog not to pull.

I used to know someone who taught dogs to walk on a loose lead by jogging with them at their pace, when they got used to the loose lead she was able to start walking, it worked.

If I were you I'd look at finding another training class.

A good trainer will not use physical force and intimidation and will teach you how to control your dog whilst wearing a harness and not something that could cause physical harm.

I've recently been contacting various trainers looking at puppy classes and I've found a few 'trainers' who are still stuck in the dark ages (usually older and more experienced!), recommending I bring along choke chains, of the opinion dogs shouldn't be allowed to play with eachother etc. needless to say I won't be going to their classes.

Maybe have a look at the APDT website to help you find a decent trainer who uses science based, humane and safe methods - http://www.apdt.co.uk/

Yeah, I went to the class once to see what it was like, since they seemed to be very experienced and successful trainers. I don't think their methods are cruel, since it was reward-based, but just that they also believe in correcting your dog through physical means too (not to the point of causing pain, of course). One of the guys there, the helpers, came over to us because Loki was barking, and gave him a poke. He stopped, but he was back at it a couple of minutes later lol so I don't think it's for me. Loki still does things I don't want him to do, but he's definitely learning and improving, so I think it'd be detrimental for me to change the learning methods I use. Especially when I don't think it'd work on him; no doubt me poking him would make him think it's playtime

So thanks again for your input everyone, I'll be sticking with the harness since I'll feel better knowing there's no risk of it damaging him, and I'll just have to work on him not pulling towards people and dogs. He walks really well on the lead when people aren't close to him.

On the plus side, I'll definitely be taking him to do some agility when he's older, he absolutely loved it, he was the only puppy there that took on the whole thing without so much as a second's hesitation

Working on a watch me/focus cue would be time well spent by the sound of things so you can get him to focus on you instead of other people and dogs when out and about.

I'd highly recommend getting Jean Donaldson's The Culture Clash too! It's a book you will be so glad you read if you do

ANattyRat wrote:Yeah, I went to the class once to see what it was like, since they seemed to be very experienced and successful trainers. I don't think their methods are cruel, since it was reward-based, but just that they also believe in correcting your dog through physical means too (not to the point of causing pain, of course). One of the guys there, the helpers, came over to us because Loki was barking, and gave him a poke. He stopped, but he was back at it a couple of minutes later lol so I don't think it's for me. Loki still does things I don't want him to do, but he's definitely learning and improving, so I think it'd be detrimental for me to change the learning methods I use. Especially when I don't think it'd work on him; no doubt me poking him would make him think it's playtime

Don't take him back, that is not a reward based class, many trainers say they are reward based but don't undestand what it means, they think that giving a dog treats is reward based, it isn't, treats are just part of it.

Postive training which reward based is is not about treats, it is rewarding the dog, many dogs won't work for treats, I have a friend who has a dog that she couldn't train because she couldn't find out what he thought was a reward, this is an experienced dog trainer. One day she accidently left treats in her coat pocket which was on the back of a dining chair. she tried again to train this dog but again nothing, she got really frustration so walked out of the room. She then remembered the treats in her pocket, went back in and he was tucking into the treats. That became his reward, helping himself to the treats in her pocked, now he is really well trained and will do anything to get the treats out of her pocket.

It is up to the owner/trainer to find out what our dogs will work for, it can be treats, a short play with a toy or ball, or like this dog helping himself to the treats. There is no need to poke a dog, of course it hurts, it hurts us when we are poked and dogs are just as sensitive if not more sensitive than we are.

Just look at us humans, some of us will work for the basic wage, others demand millions before they will work, dogs are the same, they want wagers which rewards are.

So thanks again for your input everyone, I'll be sticking with the harness since I'll feel better knowing there's no risk of it damaging him, and I'll just have to work on him not pulling towards people and dogs. He walks really well on the lead when people aren't close to him.

Distract him, find out what he thinks is a higher reward than people and dogs, with both Bonnie and Dolly it is a ball, with Cyril it is a game of tuggy, Tilly is too thick to know what she finds rewarding, she only has stale air between her ears.

plus side, I'll definitely be taking him to do some agility when he's older, he absolutely loved it, he was the only puppy there that took on the whole thing without so much as a second's hesitation

Did he do any jumping? If he is under a year old he shouldn't be jumping, it can damage his bones. You can start him now by teaching him to go through tunnels, weave in and out of things, make sure there is a big distance between them, walk along a plank on the ground, go through a tyre, it can be on the ground and not raised. Walking over poles on the ground etc. It will help with his walking on a loose lead.

I unfortunately left his favourite toy there (he's not happy ) but besides that, nah, I won't be going back. I'm sure it works for their dogs, but I'll stick to how I'm doing things already since they seem to be working. I reckon even if it was a good training method, it'd be confusing to suddenly change things. Plus I find that if I need to get his attention I can just touch his head (no force at all, just a touch), and he'll snap out of it (like when he's staring at another dog and won't respond), and he'll look at me with this "oh, when did you get here? I was just looking at this dog " expression and then he'll respond again.

Also I took him out an hour or so ago and made him sit and stay when people walked past, and every couple of seconds he stayed calm, I'd give him a treat. Does that sound like a good idea, or no? But yeah, food is his reward, literally any food will do

And he didn't do any jumping, it was just going through tunnels, walking over some poles and one of those...things that they climb over? He loved that the most

Thanks again for the input.

I've always used harnesses even when teaching to not pull

I use one of these

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Halti-Training-Lead-Large-Black/dp/B000NDFU68

with some of the dogs that I work with that has a clip on either end, one attached to the collar and one attached to the harness. Simply for greater control and safety for real escape artists or strong dogs that you need more even control of, but also need control of the head. Best of both worlds You can get thin, lighter ones for pups too!

ANattyRat wrote:Also I took him out an hour or so ago and made him sit and stay when people walked past, and every couple of seconds he stayed calm, I'd give him a treat. Does that sound like a good idea, or no? But yeah, food is his reward, literally any food will do

If it's working, then yes, it's a good idea.

I think personal choice. Callie is much better on a harness, we clip leash to both collar and harness. We use an Easy Walk.

Hopefully someday I'll be able to walk her just on a collar, but she was at times pulling so hard she was choking herself (awful gagging noises) before the harness. I do hear people say if they don't know how to walk with just a collar they aren't trained to walk properly yet, and I agree, but for now this is a necessary thing for us.

ANattyRat wrote:I unfortunately left his favourite toy there (he's not happy ) but besides that, nah, I won't be going back. I'm sure it works for their dogs, but I'll stick to how I'm doing things already since they seem to be working. I reckon even if it was a good training method, it'd be confusing to suddenly change things. Plus I find that if I need to get his attention I can just touch his head (no force at all, just a touch), and he'll snap out of it (like when he's staring at another dog and won't respond), and he'll look at me with this "oh, when did you get here? I was just looking at this dog " expression and then he'll respond again.

Punishment does work but you don't have the same bond with your dog, just imagine you are in a room, someone comes in and wants you to move to the other side of the room but they don't speak English and you don't speak their language. He tells you to move, you ask what he means, he gives you a poke and repeats what he says. You object to the poke and get a harder one but you still don't know what he means. Eventually as the pokes get harder you work out by trial and error that he wants you to move to the other side of the room. If he had come into the room, saw you didn't understand what he wanted he got hold of your hand and lead you to the other side of the room, he has set you up to succeed which is what we try to do with our dogs. Whick method would you prefer? Hopefully someday I'll be able to walk her just on a collar, but she was at times pulling so hard she was choking herself (awful gagging noises) before the harness. I do hear people say if they don't know how to walk with just a collar they aren't trained to walk properly yet, and I agree, but for now this is a necessary thing for us.

Also I took him out an hour or so ago and made him sit and stay when people walked past, and every couple of seconds he stayed calm, I'd give him a treat. Does that sound like a good idea, or no? But yeah, food is his reward, literally any food will do

You are on the right track,you are setting him up to do what you want him to If you teach him to "Watch me", it will help, you will be able to keep his attention better. If you don't know how to do this just say, most dogs take to it very quickly.

And he didn't do any jumping, it was just going through tunnels, walking over some poles and one of those...things that they climb over? He loved that the most

Thanks again for the input.

Make your own, it will help him with his obedience as well as have fun, he will tire easier and it will exercise his brain as well as physically.

I love those double ended leads, they can be used in so many ways especially if they have several rings down the length of them, you can get them in quite a few places.

Hopefully someday I'll be able to walk her just on a collar, but she was at times pulling so hard she was choking herself (awful gagging noises) before the harness. I do hear people say if they don't know how to walk with just a collar they aren't trained to walk properly yet, and I agree, but for now this is a necessary thing for us.

This happened to a rescue dog I took on, http://tracheotomy-in-dogs.yolasite.com/ My vet suspects she used to pull on the lead, it seems they get a lot of dogs needing this operation because of that. Also Staffies are prone to having a long soft pallet which can also cause problems.

Those that say you should only walk your dog on a collar are show offs, it doesn't matter how your walk your dog as long as the dog is comfortable and happy. I can walk my dogs on a collar but choose not to, if they see a cat they will try to chase it, when they get to the end of a short lead they can still do a lot of damage to their neck, trachea and larynx, I prefer to keep my dogs safe than to show off.

Cyril baby wrote:Those that say you should only walk your dog on a collar are show offs, it doesn't matter how your walk your dog as long as the dog is comfortable and happy. I can walk my dogs on a collar but choose not to, if they see a cat they will try to chase it, when they get to the end of a short lead they can still do a lot of damage to their neck, trachea and larynx, I prefer to keep my dogs safe than to show off.

That's a very sweeping generalisation & very untrue!

I use a collar because I know how to train my dog to walk nicely on it & also the law in the UK requires a dog to have a properly fitting collar at all times when in public.

I don't use a harness because I have a dog that can be dominance dog aggressive and I don't like the point of lead fixture on a harness. I don't use a head collar because my dog has a strange shaped head & very few of them fit properly or are safe for a strong dog. I am not a show off.

@Cyril Baby, I get what you're saying, that's why I've decided not to take him back and just stick to what I'm doing now. It seems to be working even if there are still things to work on. I'll definitely keep him on the harness at least for now. I can't see much of a difference in terms of control, and since when he does pull it makes me worry, I reckon it's better safe than sorry

@Caryll, I don't think Cyril Baby was calling people show offs for using collars, but those who think it's the only real way of doing so. If a collar works for one person, and a harness for another, all that matters is that the dog can walk well on it, right?

Also, as for the "watch me" command...I'm not sure how to teach that, any advice?

The "watch me" command refers to being able to get and hold your dogs attention. When we walk Suki she looks up at us every so often for reassurance. We usually just tell her "good girl" but will give her a treat every so often.

We taught her by giving the command with a treat in a closed fist. When she watched us and followed for a distance we gave her the treat. We use this alot in areas we know she will be distracted to avoid any potential problems.

Whichever way it was said, it's still a bit of a sweeping staement. Never mind.

The watch command isn't all that hard to do - when you're ondoors get a treat & hold it up to your face (not your eyes, you don't want to challenge your dog!) and say "watch", or whatever word you want to use. As soon as your dog looks at the treat give it to him & say "Good boy, watch". You need to be quite quick, though. After a while he'll associate the word watch with a treat being held in front of your face. He'll automatically look at you - after a few successes, don't treat every time, only 2 out of 3, and then build on that until he'll do it without getting a treat. Then try outside, but going back to using treats.

Thanks both of you, I'll definitely try that so the end result is that when there are people or dogs, he should be able to put his attention on me? Sounds very useful, I'll give that a go. Loki's learning a lot of new things recently

Well i'm with Caryll on this one, i dont like harness and i would rather my dogs wear a collar IF that makes me a SHOW OFF so be it dont care what ppl think.
I like to have full control of the biting end as some of mine are no good around other dogs.
A harnes IMO is like driving a car from the back seat.
If a harness suits you and your dog no one has the right to say other wise, and the same goes for a collar.
And as for a collar causing damage to the neck, that would only happen if the collar was thin and though pulling cut into the neck.
If you have a puller use some common sense and buy a wider padded collar.

i use both, harness and choker chain, and i attach the lead onto both rings, so i have the control over his neck also

Caryll wrote:

Cyril baby wrote:Those that say you should only walk your dog on a collar are show offs, it doesn't matter how your walk your dog as long as the dog is comfortable and happy. I can walk my dogs on a collar but choose not to, if they see a cat they will try to chase it, when they get to the end of a short lead they can still do a lot of damage to their neck, trachea and larynx, I prefer to keep my dogs safe than to show off.

That's a very sweeping generalisation & very untrue!

It is from my experience and no, it isn't untrue, I see to many who have this atitude, they look down on people with harnesses on their dogs even though these dogs are better behaved than their's

I use a collar because I know how to train my dog to walk nicely on it & also the law in the UK requires a dog to have a properly fitting collar at all times when in public.

Sorry that looks like you are saying that I don't know how to train my dogs to walk nicely, all 5 of my dogs walk nicely on a harness or collar. Just because my dogs have a collar on with tags doesn't mean I have to walk them on the collar.

What do your dogs do when they see a cat or a rabbit?

I don't use a harness because I have a dog that can be dominance dog aggressive and I don't like the point of lead fixture on a harness. I don't use a head collar because my dog has a strange shaped head & very few of them fit properly or are safe for a strong dog. I am not a show off.

Have a look at these, they will explain dominance better than I can.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

Can you explain the point of lead fixture on a harness please? Every type of harness I have had has had this in different places so would love to know why.

I don't think you go round telling people that only when a dog will walk on a collar are they trained properly so that doesn't make you a show off.

If my dog sees a cat I tell him to leave it. I'm not saying that you don't know how to train your dog any more than you are telling me I'm a show off!

Most harnesses have the lead attachment on the back, some have them on the chest. I don't feel comfortable with either of them.

Cyril baby wrote:

Caryll wrote:

Cyril baby wrote:Those that say you should only walk your dog on a collar are show offs, it doesn't matter how your walk your dog as long as the dog is comfortable and happy. I can walk my dogs on a collar but choose not to, if they see a cat they will try to chase it, when they get to the end of a short lead they can still do a lot of damage to their neck, trachea and larynx, I prefer to keep my dogs safe than to show off.

That's a very sweeping generalisation & very untrue!

It is from my experience and no, it isn't untrue, I see to many who have this atitude, they look down on people with harnesses on their dogs even though these dogs are better behaved than their's

Maybe it's the area we live in, but I've yet to meet anybody who thinks that a dog is better behaved on a collar than a harness, or vice versa.

Cyril baby wrote:Have a look at these, they will explain dominance better than I can.

http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

Yes, very good sites, but to most people a dog must fit in with its owner's lifestyle and must do what it's told (How you get it there is a different matter, and down to training - and I agree with you that reward based training is by far the best way forward), and as such the dog must be led and you, the owner, must be the leader. A dog that constantly pushes the barriers & wants to be 'in charge' of other dogs & even humans can still be classed as 'dominant'. No, I don't subscribe to the whole 'pack leader' stuff that has been very popular recently, but a dog is a dog and will be either dominant, submissive, or somewhere in between. How you treat & train your dog depends very much on its nature and where it falls in that area.

I'm not getting in to the harness vs collar

But i agree with those about the watch me command I taught it harv when he was a pup, but Chance isn't the brightest dog in the world I've been slowly teaching him and he has now got it, that and a leave it, and he has started to stop lunging at cats and dogs when out on lead

Caryll wrote:
Yes, very good sites, but to most people a dog must fit in with its owner's lifestyle and must do what it's told (How you get it there is a different matter, and down to training - and I agree with you that reward based training is by far the best way forward), and as such the dog must be led and you, the owner, must be the leader. A dog that constantly pushes the barriers & wants to be 'in charge' of other dogs & even humans can still be classed as 'dominant'. No, I don't subscribe to the whole 'pack leader' stuff that has been very popular recently, but a dog is a dog and will be either dominant, submissive, or somewhere in between. How you treat & train your dog depends very much on its nature and where it falls in that area.

Of course dogs have to fit into our lifestyles, unfortunately a lot of owners don't research the breeds so get the wrong type of dog then don't know how to cope with them.

Yes dogs will push the boundaries and so do children, the reasons are the same, no boudaries and they push to find them, if there are boundaries they push to expand them. I used to run a pre-school playgroup, took children from 3 years old to 5 when they went to school, I saw the same behaviours in those children I see in dogs. We don't say that children are dominant, suibmissive etc. we say that the parents haven't taught their children how to behave in our society, it is the same with dogs, we have to teach them how to behave in our society and live in our homes etc.

I use many ways to get my dogs to do what I want, I can lead them, I can put them into a position were they do what I want by managing the problem, it is amazing how a dog can learn by just managing the problem. Some of the dogs I have taken on I have had to prioritise the behaviours on which has to be solved now and which can wait, those that wait are managed, once I have got back to the problems that have been managed the problem has gone. I can also teach my dog by luring etc. there are a lot of ways we can teach our dog, children, horses etc.

Bonnie, my oldest dog was classed as a very dominant dog by the rescue, in fact she was just a sweet girl who didn't know what was expected of her so kept doing what wasn't wanted then was punished. She was also in a crate for 2 months before she came to me because both her back legs had been broken, this contributed to her being labelled as Dominant because she was hyper as well.

But you see, your Bonnie was mis-categorised! She wasn't dominant, she was traumatised - a different thing entirely.

No she wasn't traumatised, her behaviour was typical of what is known as dominant. She is a confident dog, nothing seems to bother her, she will try to push the boundaries if she thinks she can get away with it but if you are consistant she is a dream dog.

The worst dog I had who was classed as dominant, she came from the same rescue and both had "Dominant Dog" on their paperwork. Gracie had been spoilt, she was at least 12 years old and took no prisoners, if she wanted it and didn't get it there was trouble. She also tried to kill Joe when she arrived. By being consistant, teaching her what was expected of her and keeping the boundaries and good management she changed into a lovely girl, full of mischief. She was a confident little girl.

If a toddler walked up to you, demanded what you had in your hand then kicked you because you didn't give it to him would you call the toddler dominant?

Confidence is taken as dominance, it is the same with us humans, someone who is a very confident person is often taken the wrong way.

Cyril baby wrote:Bonnie, my oldest dog was classed as a very dominant dog by the rescue, in fact she was just a sweet girl who didn't know what was expected of her so kept doing what wasn't wanted then was punished. She was also in a crate for 2 months before she came to me because both her back legs had been broken, this contributed to her being labelled as Dominant because she was hyper as well.

I would say that was a trauma. Both back legs broken & in a crate for 2 months?

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. What you are describing doesn't sound like dominance to me at all. Dominance, to me, is needing to be 'top dog' (whether it's with humans or other dogs), always having to be physically 'higher' than other dogs, staring other dogs (and in some cases humans) straight in the eye & not looking away. The other end of the spectrum is submissiveness - never looking another dog (or human) in the eye, getting 'below' other dogs by lying down or rolling onto their backs; I don't mean through fear, a submissive dog isn't normally particularly scared, but through wanting to be 'lesser' - a follower, not a leader.

[quote="Caryll"]

Cyril baby wrote:
I think we're talking at cross purposes here. What you are describing doesn't sound like dominance to me at all. Dominance, to me, is needing to be 'top dog' (whether it's with humans or other dogs), always having to be physically 'higher' than other dogs, staring other dogs (and in some cases humans) straight in the eye & not looking away. The other end of the spectrum is submissiveness - never looking another dog (or human) in the eye, getting 'below' other dogs by lying down or rolling onto their backs; I don't mean through fear, a submissive dog isn't normally particularly scared, but through wanting to be 'lesser' - a follower, not a leader.

I love discussions like this because we all learn, everyone has different ways of expressing themselves which can be misunderstood by others. I am splitting this up smaller.

Dominance, to me, is needing to be 'top dog' (whether it's with humans or other dogs), always having to be physically 'higher' than other dogs, staring other dogs

Dogs with a lot of confidence do this, they are not interested in being top dog but give the impression that they do, they are like a confident child, they don't think they just do it, they do look people and dogs staright in the eye, it is one way they can read us and other dogs but is isn't a stare. Dogs love to be higher up so they can see more, if you get down to their level all you can see is legs and feet, once they are up higher life is so much more interesting.

Staring into our eyes or another dogs is aggression, if we stare into a dog's eyes you can see them get uncomfortable and start to show calming signals. When my sons were young if they were doing something they shouldn't and I couldn't speak or get to them I would "Stare" at them, they knew immediately they were in trouble. Collies have what is called "Collie eye", it is a stare and is how they often get the sheep to move away from them but many dogs think they are being aggressive and will often attack first, this gets them into trouble when it was the Collie giving them the eye.

The other end of the spectrum is submissiveness - never looking another dog (or human) in the eye, getting 'below' other dogs by lying down or rolling onto their backs; I don't mean through fear, a submissive dog isn't normally particularly scared,

You often see pups do this with an adult dog and the rolling on their backs to another dog, I have seen many adult dogs do it as well, it is a submissive act but doesn't mean that it is a submissive dog, it depends on the dog and why he is submitting. Some humans haven't understood what is happened and think the dog is correcting the one that has rolled so try to do the same with a dog, this is called the Alpha Roll and is dangerous, to do it we have to put our face close to the dog's teeth and we can get badly bitten. It may make the dog submit then but gradually the dog will get worse and worse not better, when you use force to correct any animal, and that means us humas as well, we have to keep using more and more force to keep the control. Dogs don't normally push another dog onto their backs, the dog puts themself on their backs, that is normal. What isn't normal is the dogs that do push another dog over, they have learnt that, it is a learned behaviour and is an aggressive act by the dog.

One thing we do agree on is that the Alpha Roll is bad!

I think we'll have to agree to differ on some other things, though!

Dogs cannot be dominant. Dominance is not a personality trait. Dominance is "primarily a descriptive term for relationships between pairs of individuals." and "the use of the expression 'dominant dog' is meaningless, since "dominance" can apply only to a relationship between individuals. (Bradshaw et al., 2009)

"Dominance comes into play in a relationship between members of the same species when one individual wants to have the first pick of available resources such as food, beds, toys, bones, etc. Even between dogs, however, it is not achieved through force or coercion but through one member of the relationship deferring to the other peacefully. In many households the status of one dog over another is fluid; in other words, one dog may be the first to take his pick of toys, but will defer to the other dog when it comes to choice of resting places. Dogs that use aggression to "get what they want" are not displaying dominance, but rather anxiety-based behaviors, which will only increase if they are faced with verbal and/or physical threats from their human owners. Basing one's interaction with their dog on dominance is harmful to the dog-human relationship and leads to further stress, anxiety and aggression from the dog, as well as fear and antipathy of the owner." - http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

For the OP:

This is the best way of teaching a watch me command IMO as you don't have to worry about fading a lure and then the hand signal.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/pay-attention

It also mentions the important rule when teaching a new behaviour - not to add a cue word untill the dog is fairly reliably performing the behaviour

Caryll wrote:I think we'll have to agree to differ on some other things, though!

`We are our experiences Caryll, your's are differnt to mine, when I was your age I didn't have anythink like as much knowledge that you have, thanks to the dogs I have taken on my knowledge went in a very steep learning curve for their sakes. Our understanding of dogs has come a long way in the last 15 years. Having multiple dogs gives me a good chance to watch dogs interact with each other, that has lead to a lot of surprises, what I thought I knew was rubbish.

Galadriel wrote:Dogs cannot be dominant. Dominance is not a personality trait. Dominance is "primarily a descriptive term for relationships between pairs of individuals." and "the use of the expression 'dominant dog' is meaningless, since "dominance" can apply only to a relationship between individuals. (Bradshaw et al., 2009)

"Dominance comes into play in a relationship between members of the same species when one individual wants to have the first pick of available resources such as food, beds, toys, bones, etc. Even between dogs, however, it is not achieved through force or coercion but through one member of the relationship deferring to the other peacefully. In many households the status of one dog over another is fluid; in other words, one dog may be the first to take his pick of toys, but will defer to the other dog when it comes to choice of resting places. Dogs that use aggression to "get what they want" are not displaying dominance, but rather anxiety-based behaviors, which will only increase if they are faced with verbal and/or physical threats from their human owners. Basing one's interaction with their dog on dominance is harmful to the dog-human relationship and leads to further stress, anxiety and aggression from the dog, as well as fear and antipathy of the owner." - http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

Thanks Galadriel, that puts it much better than I can, going to save that.

Cyril baby wrote:

Galadriel wrote:Dogs cannot be dominant. Dominance is not a personality trait. Dominance is "primarily a descriptive term for relationships between pairs of individuals." and "the use of the expression 'dominant dog' is meaningless, since "dominance" can apply only to a relationship between individuals. (Bradshaw et al., 2009)

"Dominance comes into play in a relationship between members of the same species when one individual wants to have the first pick of available resources such as food, beds, toys, bones, etc. Even between dogs, however, it is not achieved through force or coercion but through one member of the relationship deferring to the other peacefully. In many households the status of one dog over another is fluid; in other words, one dog may be the first to take his pick of toys, but will defer to the other dog when it comes to choice of resting places. Dogs that use aggression to "get what they want" are not displaying dominance, but rather anxiety-based behaviors, which will only increase if they are faced with verbal and/or physical threats from their human owners. Basing one's interaction with their dog on dominance is harmful to the dog-human relationship and leads to further stress, anxiety and aggression from the dog, as well as fear and antipathy of the owner." - http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx

Thanks Galadriel, that puts it much better than I can, going to save that.

I agree with a lot of what Bradshaw says, but not all. He bases all of his assumptions on a species of wolf that has been extinct for many hundreds of years (if they existed at all) because that fitted in with his studies. He's a scientist, not a behaviourist.

Sorry, I had to go - I'm at work & someone came into the office!

This could prove to be a very interesting discussion, but this thread really isn't the place for it. maybe someone would like to start up a new thread on his findings?

I dont really think you can have a lead v harness thing ... I have always used both, and in differant situations

If you want front end control = a nice wide supportive collar all the way

If your dog is a puller, or they need a little more freedom = a harness beats a collar hands down

Tho obviously a harness should ALWAYS be warn with a collar .. so switch from one to the other when needed .. simples

Just started a thread about John Bradshaw - feel free to state opinions.

I haven't heard of of him so just done a search and found this for those that are like me http://www.npr.org/2011/05/26/136497064/the-new-science-of-understanding-dog-behavior

Looks like my learning curve is getting steep again, it helps keep me a geriatric teenage hooligan.