Legs giving way
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nic01354
Staffy lover
Nosipho
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micheled
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Staffordshire bull terrier :: Staffordshire Bull Terrier Health & Fitness Forum :: Staffordshire Bull Terrier Health Issues
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Legs giving way
First topic message reminder :
Hi all,
I have a 7.5-year-old male Staffie cross who went very out-of-sorts about three weeks ago.
I returned from work to find he'd been sick everywhere. He also wouldn't/couldn't move from the sofa and began growling if I approached.
His temperament has always been excellent - never a hint of aggression - so this was a flag that something was wrong.
Eventually coaxed from the sofa by chicken, I noticed he was limping heavily on his front left.
The vet ran some blood tests and also prescribed an NSAID, saying he suspected elbow dysplasia (dog is overweight), and to reduce his weight.
Over the next few days, the dog slept about 22 hours each day, refused to eat much, but his water consumption increased massively to roughly treble his normal intake. He was also sick frequently.
His lameness became very pronounced but would disappear completely every couple of days.
This was then followed by collapse in his other front leg, and extremely uncoordinated movement in his rear - like he was pushing backward as though on roller skates.
He was trembling/shaking continually throughout the day, didn't appear to "recognise" familiar faces and, when he did get up, would half-complete what he was going to do - eg get into his basket but, instead of turning around to see the whole kitchen (as he would normally), would sit facing the cupboard door for minutes, before turning round.
He also began to walk into things, as though temporarily blind.
I also noticed a small, hard white lump on the top of his head - between his ears. I can't explain it more than that, other than it's rock solid and growing out of his skin.
Another trip to the vet and more tests, including one for Cushing's, (negative) and a urine test for UTIs. The vet didn't think the white lump was significant.
The tests came back normal aside from being at the upper threshold for blood sugar, and cholesterol slightly elevated out of range. Thyroid function (T4 test, I believe) showed he was above the midpoint on the scale fairly comfortably.
He began standing facing walls, doors and was utterly disconnected from everything.
The vet advised small walks. 100 metres into one, he fell over - all four legs gave way and he had a glassy, vacant stare but remained fully conscious and did not fit.
Back to the vets, where I asked about tick borne illnesses and symptoms, but was told it wasn't tick season and the dog's rectal temperature was also normal (around 102 degrees).
The vet recommended Zylkene for anxiety. The dog has, until now, always been very confident and outgoing - isn't fazed by fireworks etc, so certainly isn't predisposed to being anxious.
Back home, the dog reacted very badly to anyone approaching him, and continued to sleep excessively.
He refused walking. His limping had all but ceased at this point, though he would just fall over, with various legs simply giving way. He would walk without limp, albeit looking like he was a bit drunk, then just keel over.
He also began to pee and poo anywhere in the house, which he's never, ever done before.
I noticed his neck is extremely rigid - like the muscle is cramped solid (like a brick wall to the touch), and his nose is discharging a lot of clear mucous, which dries white.
Back to the vets. In the vet's waiting room, his legs (differing ones) gave way three times while standing waiting for half an hour.
The vet insisted it was elbow dysplasia and that was that.
I took the dog home and rested him for a week. He's begun to perk up a little but has lost significant muscle mass and has begun to cry if he rolls over onto his back. His legs have stopped going out from under him and ALL signs of limping have disappeared, but his neck remains as stiff as a board, and he's walking in a "drunken" manner still.
The nose discharge has become heavier, though still clear.
His sleeping has reduced to about 12-14 hours a day but he's still "not himself" and keeps having freezes during movement and vacant stares.
His temperament has not improved, sadly - he'll sit and stare then, if you look back at him, he'll growl. He also growls if humans are eating. This is totally out of character and has never been seen in him before.
I'm going to a different vet tomorrow as I'm not happy with a diagnosis of elbow dysplasia. It surely doesn't cause all four limbs to sporadically give out, an ataxic gait, deep personality changes, and prolonged bouts of mental absence?
Sorry for the long post but as an experienced dog owner (five previously), who has a well-trained, sociable animal who was, up to three weeks ago seemingly in perfect health, and was a total pussycat, I'm both stumped and getting a bit desperate.
Any ideas, anyone?
Thanks.
Hi all,
I have a 7.5-year-old male Staffie cross who went very out-of-sorts about three weeks ago.
I returned from work to find he'd been sick everywhere. He also wouldn't/couldn't move from the sofa and began growling if I approached.
His temperament has always been excellent - never a hint of aggression - so this was a flag that something was wrong.
Eventually coaxed from the sofa by chicken, I noticed he was limping heavily on his front left.
The vet ran some blood tests and also prescribed an NSAID, saying he suspected elbow dysplasia (dog is overweight), and to reduce his weight.
Over the next few days, the dog slept about 22 hours each day, refused to eat much, but his water consumption increased massively to roughly treble his normal intake. He was also sick frequently.
His lameness became very pronounced but would disappear completely every couple of days.
This was then followed by collapse in his other front leg, and extremely uncoordinated movement in his rear - like he was pushing backward as though on roller skates.
He was trembling/shaking continually throughout the day, didn't appear to "recognise" familiar faces and, when he did get up, would half-complete what he was going to do - eg get into his basket but, instead of turning around to see the whole kitchen (as he would normally), would sit facing the cupboard door for minutes, before turning round.
He also began to walk into things, as though temporarily blind.
I also noticed a small, hard white lump on the top of his head - between his ears. I can't explain it more than that, other than it's rock solid and growing out of his skin.
Another trip to the vet and more tests, including one for Cushing's, (negative) and a urine test for UTIs. The vet didn't think the white lump was significant.
The tests came back normal aside from being at the upper threshold for blood sugar, and cholesterol slightly elevated out of range. Thyroid function (T4 test, I believe) showed he was above the midpoint on the scale fairly comfortably.
He began standing facing walls, doors and was utterly disconnected from everything.
The vet advised small walks. 100 metres into one, he fell over - all four legs gave way and he had a glassy, vacant stare but remained fully conscious and did not fit.
Back to the vets, where I asked about tick borne illnesses and symptoms, but was told it wasn't tick season and the dog's rectal temperature was also normal (around 102 degrees).
The vet recommended Zylkene for anxiety. The dog has, until now, always been very confident and outgoing - isn't fazed by fireworks etc, so certainly isn't predisposed to being anxious.
Back home, the dog reacted very badly to anyone approaching him, and continued to sleep excessively.
He refused walking. His limping had all but ceased at this point, though he would just fall over, with various legs simply giving way. He would walk without limp, albeit looking like he was a bit drunk, then just keel over.
He also began to pee and poo anywhere in the house, which he's never, ever done before.
I noticed his neck is extremely rigid - like the muscle is cramped solid (like a brick wall to the touch), and his nose is discharging a lot of clear mucous, which dries white.
Back to the vets. In the vet's waiting room, his legs (differing ones) gave way three times while standing waiting for half an hour.
The vet insisted it was elbow dysplasia and that was that.
I took the dog home and rested him for a week. He's begun to perk up a little but has lost significant muscle mass and has begun to cry if he rolls over onto his back. His legs have stopped going out from under him and ALL signs of limping have disappeared, but his neck remains as stiff as a board, and he's walking in a "drunken" manner still.
The nose discharge has become heavier, though still clear.
His sleeping has reduced to about 12-14 hours a day but he's still "not himself" and keeps having freezes during movement and vacant stares.
His temperament has not improved, sadly - he'll sit and stare then, if you look back at him, he'll growl. He also growls if humans are eating. This is totally out of character and has never been seen in him before.
I'm going to a different vet tomorrow as I'm not happy with a diagnosis of elbow dysplasia. It surely doesn't cause all four limbs to sporadically give out, an ataxic gait, deep personality changes, and prolonged bouts of mental absence?
Sorry for the long post but as an experienced dog owner (five previously), who has a well-trained, sociable animal who was, up to three weeks ago seemingly in perfect health, and was a total pussycat, I'm both stumped and getting a bit desperate.
Any ideas, anyone?
Thanks.
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Re: Legs giving way
Andy,
Thanks very much for this.
It makes good sense and contains good advice, which I'll adhere to.
I've just noticed that, right now, Marley's neck is as soft as warm butter. It had been like a brick for most of the past month, and was something I've checked on daily.
He's had some lightly boiled kidneys and dry kibble today, and would happily eat the rest of it, if he could access it.
One trick I have to get him to drink in hot weather is to add a little milk to his water. It's not enough for the lactose to cause any problems. An eggcup's-worth of milk in a pint of water = gone.
I'll need to rethink his calories a bit - I reduced them by 30% in an effort to get him to lose some weight, but that reduction hasn't caused a calorific deficit, due to his inactivity - he's still exactly the same weight (took him to the local vet store which has an electronic pet scales this morning).
Sorry to hear of your back problems - I had a brief two month spell of being bent over at 30-degrees years back, and it was pretty painful - did it lifting some light shopping out of the car, of all things.
Might pop out and get a cold pack in a bit - probably better than a bag of frozen peas in a towel.
Thanks very much for this.
It makes good sense and contains good advice, which I'll adhere to.
I've just noticed that, right now, Marley's neck is as soft as warm butter. It had been like a brick for most of the past month, and was something I've checked on daily.
He's had some lightly boiled kidneys and dry kibble today, and would happily eat the rest of it, if he could access it.
One trick I have to get him to drink in hot weather is to add a little milk to his water. It's not enough for the lactose to cause any problems. An eggcup's-worth of milk in a pint of water = gone.
I'll need to rethink his calories a bit - I reduced them by 30% in an effort to get him to lose some weight, but that reduction hasn't caused a calorific deficit, due to his inactivity - he's still exactly the same weight (took him to the local vet store which has an electronic pet scales this morning).
Sorry to hear of your back problems - I had a brief two month spell of being bent over at 30-degrees years back, and it was pretty painful - did it lifting some light shopping out of the car, of all things.
Might pop out and get a cold pack in a bit - probably better than a bag of frozen peas in a towel.
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Re: Legs giving way
Bit of a problem turning left this morning, but that soon cleared up. He's also avoiding rolling over onto his back.
But he is now bombing around the house, bored, and keeps fetching his lead from the cupboard.
I'm tempted to begin short walks with him tomorrow morning.
Temperament seems fine, appetite fine, poo back to normal, no whimpering.
But he is now bombing around the house, bored, and keeps fetching his lead from the cupboard.
I'm tempted to begin short walks with him tomorrow morning.
Temperament seems fine, appetite fine, poo back to normal, no whimpering.
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Re: Legs giving way
Just take it easy & build up gradually. At least you know that if he has a relapse it's treatable!
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Re: Legs giving way
Good to hear he is improving!
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Re: Legs giving way
Thanks.
We're going to go all of 200 metres tomorrow morning, up to the field for a widdle and back.
As cautious as it sounds, I'll probably only build that up by 50 metres or so a day. If that works, he'll be up to 1km in 15 days.
We're going to go all of 200 metres tomorrow morning, up to the field for a widdle and back.
As cautious as it sounds, I'll probably only build that up by 50 metres or so a day. If that works, he'll be up to 1km in 15 days.
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Re: Legs giving way
Probably nothing, but he's just been for a poo and there are lines, or tracks in it, slightly less thick than the indentation you'd get if you pushed a piece of spaghetti against his stool, then lifted it off.
They're about three inches long.
Worms? Dead worms? Or a dog with a piping nozzle?
They're about three inches long.
Worms? Dead worms? Or a dog with a piping nozzle?
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Re: Legs giving way
When was he last wormed? If not in the last 3 months please get this done, if only to eliminate the possibility.
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Re: Legs giving way
He was wormed on Monday.
He's even more lively now - has got back to giving the paw when wanting dinner, but is still butt scooting.
I've booked him into the vets for early next week for a neck check-up and a check of his anal glands.
We went for a 6:30am walkies this morning and, of course, he peed to mark at every given opportunity.
He was ripping the grass up with his back paws at each mark, which he's not really done before - not sure if that's to say "I'm back", or what.
Walkies went very well and, after a snooze all day, he's not showing any signs of limping or anything.
He's also started rolling over onto his back again - not too keen on him doing this right now, but can hardly stop him.
He's even more lively now - has got back to giving the paw when wanting dinner, but is still butt scooting.
I've booked him into the vets for early next week for a neck check-up and a check of his anal glands.
We went for a 6:30am walkies this morning and, of course, he peed to mark at every given opportunity.
He was ripping the grass up with his back paws at each mark, which he's not really done before - not sure if that's to say "I'm back", or what.
Walkies went very well and, after a snooze all day, he's not showing any signs of limping or anything.
He's also started rolling over onto his back again - not too keen on him doing this right now, but can hardly stop him.
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Re: Legs giving way
How is Marley doing this week??
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Re: Legs giving way
Hi Kathy,
Thanks for asking.
He's largely back to his cheeky self - we're up to 1km twice a day now.
He's had his annual vaccs, and is running round like a fool, constantly.
Need to take him back to the vet on Monday though - he has some black gunk in one of his ears, keeps shaking his head and scratching his ear, and isn't happy about letting me near it.
It doesn't seem to be hurting - just irritating.
He's also got the hump because he's been put on all of 450 cal every other day by the vet, who said it'll get his weight down pronto rather than spending months dropping it bit by bit. So, a whole day every other day with no food = whingy dog, as is to be expected.
He does look a lot more trim already - vet wants him down below optimal weight to protect his neck/spine.
So I guess I'll end up with a thin, bin-rummaging dog soon.
He's on the tiniest amount of Orijen, offal and raw chicken wings right now.
Thanks for asking.
He's largely back to his cheeky self - we're up to 1km twice a day now.
He's had his annual vaccs, and is running round like a fool, constantly.
Need to take him back to the vet on Monday though - he has some black gunk in one of his ears, keeps shaking his head and scratching his ear, and isn't happy about letting me near it.
It doesn't seem to be hurting - just irritating.
He's also got the hump because he's been put on all of 450 cal every other day by the vet, who said it'll get his weight down pronto rather than spending months dropping it bit by bit. So, a whole day every other day with no food = whingy dog, as is to be expected.
He does look a lot more trim already - vet wants him down below optimal weight to protect his neck/spine.
So I guess I'll end up with a thin, bin-rummaging dog soon.
He's on the tiniest amount of Orijen, offal and raw chicken wings right now.
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Re: Legs giving way
Glad to hear that Marley is getting on well it sounds like he is responding well and getting back to his normal self, keeping my fingers crossed that you are over the worst.
Rocky has recently lost a bit of weight, only about half a kilo but it looks like more, I guess he is getting fitter and a bit more toned having his long run of lead most days now.
Keep up the good work it sounds like you are on the right tracks.
Rocky has recently lost a bit of weight, only about half a kilo but it looks like more, I guess he is getting fitter and a bit more toned having his long run of lead most days now.
Keep up the good work it sounds like you are on the right tracks.
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Re: Legs giving way
It was all going well until last night, when he had a seizure at 1:30am, which lasted for about 1 minute.
He couldn't stand up for 15 minutes after this episode, and was fairly distressed.
Once he could stand up, he spent the next hour and three quarters pacing from lounge to back garden continuously.
He went back to his bed at 3:30am, then had the beginnings of another seizure at 3:45am - started with some form of difficulty breathing (dilating jowls), which then turned to lots of thick, sticky white saliva dribbling everywhere.
He didn't go the full way this time.
I stayed up, internet searching, until 9am, when the vets opened this morning.
I found an interesting post from 2005 about a dog which presented with aggression and collapse problems, which gave rise to seizures and third eyelid problems. It all turned out to be caused by a severe inner ear infection.
I had a look in the dog's ears at 7am this morning, and could see nothing, aside from one ear looking very dry, and a large black lump in situ about 3/4s the way down.
The vet said to bring him straight in. When we got there, he looked at the ear, then asked me where this lump was.
It had gone.
He'd been shaking his head constantly in the car - maybe it shot out from that - I know I didn't hallucinate it.
Anyway, the vet could somehow identify that there was quite a serious inner ear infection (he tried to show me but I couldn't see anything, aside from the dryness).
He put some ear drops in, which brought some growling, then told me I'd need to put them in twice a day until the bottle ran out. I'm not looking forward to this - the probability of getting bitten is certain.
On the way home, the turbo on the car decided to expire, and I ended up with about 20bhp to propel me at 40mph.
Time to get another car.
Once home, I looked into doggo's ear again - and the clean, dry-looking ear with the infection is now covered in manky, black, gunk - some sort of reaction to the prescription ear drops.
So, where are we now?
The neck/back injury appears to have largely healed.
Full-blown seizures, coupled with some petit-mal experiences, have taken its place.
And the dog has an ear infection.
There appears to be plenty of evidence of ear infections causing seizures on various veterinary websites - vestibular something or other.
I'm approaching my wit's end - common sense would suggest everything the poor lad has been through in the last two months is all linked.
Ear infections -> Seizures -> Neck trauma while seizing -> Exploring neck as primary cause of woes rather than exploring cause of seizures as cause of everything else???????????????????????
I can't believe how much this dog has gone through.
He couldn't stand up for 15 minutes after this episode, and was fairly distressed.
Once he could stand up, he spent the next hour and three quarters pacing from lounge to back garden continuously.
He went back to his bed at 3:30am, then had the beginnings of another seizure at 3:45am - started with some form of difficulty breathing (dilating jowls), which then turned to lots of thick, sticky white saliva dribbling everywhere.
He didn't go the full way this time.
I stayed up, internet searching, until 9am, when the vets opened this morning.
I found an interesting post from 2005 about a dog which presented with aggression and collapse problems, which gave rise to seizures and third eyelid problems. It all turned out to be caused by a severe inner ear infection.
I had a look in the dog's ears at 7am this morning, and could see nothing, aside from one ear looking very dry, and a large black lump in situ about 3/4s the way down.
The vet said to bring him straight in. When we got there, he looked at the ear, then asked me where this lump was.
It had gone.
He'd been shaking his head constantly in the car - maybe it shot out from that - I know I didn't hallucinate it.
Anyway, the vet could somehow identify that there was quite a serious inner ear infection (he tried to show me but I couldn't see anything, aside from the dryness).
He put some ear drops in, which brought some growling, then told me I'd need to put them in twice a day until the bottle ran out. I'm not looking forward to this - the probability of getting bitten is certain.
On the way home, the turbo on the car decided to expire, and I ended up with about 20bhp to propel me at 40mph.
Time to get another car.
Once home, I looked into doggo's ear again - and the clean, dry-looking ear with the infection is now covered in manky, black, gunk - some sort of reaction to the prescription ear drops.
So, where are we now?
The neck/back injury appears to have largely healed.
Full-blown seizures, coupled with some petit-mal experiences, have taken its place.
And the dog has an ear infection.
There appears to be plenty of evidence of ear infections causing seizures on various veterinary websites - vestibular something or other.
I'm approaching my wit's end - common sense would suggest everything the poor lad has been through in the last two months is all linked.
Ear infections -> Seizures -> Neck trauma while seizing -> Exploring neck as primary cause of woes rather than exploring cause of seizures as cause of everything else???????????????????????
I can't believe how much this dog has gone through.
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Re: Legs giving way
Oh, and he lost 2kg last month, so there's something positive.
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Re: Legs giving way
Does anyone have any ideas how I can get these ear drops into his ear?
I've come up with two ideas so far:
Wear my Kevlar-knuckled motorbike gloves and keep my face well away.
Or wait until he's asleep on his left side, with right ear facing up, then quickly squirt ear drops, and run.
The videos of how to do it mostly show some lovely, compliant dog getting a squirt, and looking happy.
I've come up with two ideas so far:
Wear my Kevlar-knuckled motorbike gloves and keep my face well away.
Or wait until he's asleep on his left side, with right ear facing up, then quickly squirt ear drops, and run.
The videos of how to do it mostly show some lovely, compliant dog getting a squirt, and looking happy.
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Re: Legs giving way
How about getting a cloth muzzle? You'd still have to hold him still, but at least you wouldn't be bitten.
Poor little fella, he's really going through it.
Poor little fella, he's really going through it.
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Re: Legs giving way
There are times he's really going through it, and others when he's having good times.
Last night was horrible.
Today, so far, has been great - he's full of beans, running and jumping around and clearly enjoying himself.
I just got the ear drops in - put him in a sit stay, put some turkey on the ground, made him wait for his usual count of 10, counted as far as 6, squirted it in, then let him have his food.
I don't think he even noticed the ear drops - the turkey occupied 99% of his available memory.
Last night was horrible.
Today, so far, has been great - he's full of beans, running and jumping around and clearly enjoying himself.
I just got the ear drops in - put him in a sit stay, put some turkey on the ground, made him wait for his usual count of 10, counted as far as 6, squirted it in, then let him have his food.
I don't think he even noticed the ear drops - the turkey occupied 99% of his available memory.
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Re: Legs giving way
Oh, and his ear has gone right gammy-looking - all lumpy and stinky.
Clearly some infection of sorts there.
Clearly some infection of sorts there.
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Re: Legs giving way
Im so glad he's improving. I actually cried reading this. I lost my girl last year, she was 16. She was suffering with Kidney failure, crumbling disks also, and right at the end, epilpsy and dementia. The vacant look still haunts me today. It came on so quickly. Everything you wrote, was just like my girl, only it was the kidney failure, that was untreatable at the end. He sound like he's getting there. please dont worry when you read this, my girl had many problems. x
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Re: Legs giving way
Hi,
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss.
There's never an easy way to deal with grief.
My mum's staff, Gemma, passed away some years ago through kidney failure, which came on very quickly. She went to a better place. All dogs do - the innocence of animals guarantees that.
I'm very sorry to hear of your loss.
There's never an easy way to deal with grief.
My mum's staff, Gemma, passed away some years ago through kidney failure, which came on very quickly. She went to a better place. All dogs do - the innocence of animals guarantees that.
Last edited by Working dog on Tue Jul 03 2012, 20:33; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Legs giving way
If only I was so handsome.
Right then. Quick update.
I caught him at 7am this morning, fast asleep on the floor next to me (can't let him onto the bed in case he seizures again and falls off), so squirted him with a good dollop of the ear stuff. He didn't even wake up.
This evening, I came to an agreement with him that he would stare at a piece of turkey while I stuck the nozzle in his ear and gave him another squirt. He didn't like this one so much, but persevered for the sake of the 10 grams of protein dressed up as poultry flesh which dangled before him.
His ear stinks, as does his breath, and his voice has gone incredibly raspy.
He spent a lot of today sitting in the kitchen staring at the oven door, breaking his gaze only when I whistled, snapped my fingers, or jangled his dinner bowl. He's in his own little land right now, but incredibly subdued and polite when he snaps out of it.
My ex-wife came round earlier and said he looks depressed. Maybe she's right.
Right then. Quick update.
I caught him at 7am this morning, fast asleep on the floor next to me (can't let him onto the bed in case he seizures again and falls off), so squirted him with a good dollop of the ear stuff. He didn't even wake up.
This evening, I came to an agreement with him that he would stare at a piece of turkey while I stuck the nozzle in his ear and gave him another squirt. He didn't like this one so much, but persevered for the sake of the 10 grams of protein dressed up as poultry flesh which dangled before him.
His ear stinks, as does his breath, and his voice has gone incredibly raspy.
He spent a lot of today sitting in the kitchen staring at the oven door, breaking his gaze only when I whistled, snapped my fingers, or jangled his dinner bowl. He's in his own little land right now, but incredibly subdued and polite when he snaps out of it.
My ex-wife came round earlier and said he looks depressed. Maybe she's right.
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Re: Legs giving way
Maybe, but wouldn't you be with all those things wrong? He doesn't feel good & doesn't understand why, poor fella.
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Re: Legs giving way
Another seizure last night.
A different vet in the practice today.
She watched him bump into the walls, watched his legs slide around underneath him, watched him get stuck in the corners of her room, and was quite mystified by it all.
I explained the last few months' events to her as though to justify why he was there, but she said she could see he was vacant and there in body but not in mind in her office.
She did a thorough work-up on his neck and elbows - nothing.
Checked his ears, his eyes, his pupils, his abdomen, his anal glands (as he's still butt scooting. He didn't half let out a yelp when she squeezed them).
She said to keep with the ear drops. She also prescribed gabapentin and vivitonin, which control pain, reduce seizures and enhance blood oxygen levels apparently.
She could see he was desperately unwell.
I was also given diazapam in special tubes to squirt up his butt if he has another fit. I haven't opened them as they're foil sealed, but I think the idea is snap the top off them, insert into butt, squeeze tube, diazapam stops seizure.
We got as far as home when he collapsed again, but didn't seize.
He went over seven times in total - collapsing forwards onto his face with momentary loss of consciousness.
We have to now face the very real possibility of a brain tumour. It'll cost three grand for a scan to find out.
Marley is either pacing the house, falling over, or facing a wall. I don't think he recognises anyone now. My old dog is effectively gone.
A different vet in the practice today.
She watched him bump into the walls, watched his legs slide around underneath him, watched him get stuck in the corners of her room, and was quite mystified by it all.
I explained the last few months' events to her as though to justify why he was there, but she said she could see he was vacant and there in body but not in mind in her office.
She did a thorough work-up on his neck and elbows - nothing.
Checked his ears, his eyes, his pupils, his abdomen, his anal glands (as he's still butt scooting. He didn't half let out a yelp when she squeezed them).
She said to keep with the ear drops. She also prescribed gabapentin and vivitonin, which control pain, reduce seizures and enhance blood oxygen levels apparently.
She could see he was desperately unwell.
I was also given diazapam in special tubes to squirt up his butt if he has another fit. I haven't opened them as they're foil sealed, but I think the idea is snap the top off them, insert into butt, squeeze tube, diazapam stops seizure.
We got as far as home when he collapsed again, but didn't seize.
He went over seven times in total - collapsing forwards onto his face with momentary loss of consciousness.
We have to now face the very real possibility of a brain tumour. It'll cost three grand for a scan to find out.
Marley is either pacing the house, falling over, or facing a wall. I don't think he recognises anyone now. My old dog is effectively gone.
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Re: Legs giving way
Just a thought & I don't know if this has been mentioned at all, but has your dog been tested for L2 HGA?
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Re: Legs giving way
It did occur to us a while ago, but his lack of symptoms until now doesn't really fit. He's almost eight years old and showed no signs of anything L2HGA-related up to now.
I'll mention it to the vet.
He spent ages licking an empty food bowl this morning, then went back to bed and is snoring like a pig right now.
I'll mention it to the vet.
He spent ages licking an empty food bowl this morning, then went back to bed and is snoring like a pig right now.
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Re: Legs giving way
Although the onset is usually around 18 months, it can occur in later years. Worth a check, as some of the symptoms are there.
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Re: Legs giving way
Just another quick update.
I'm basically videoing him for 24 hours, not to catch his dementia-like symptoms, but to catch his head shaking, and a new thing where he rubs his face along the floor with his two paws over his mouth, like he's trying to pull something off him.
I've recorded a few incidences of it today.
Also, of note, he's started rolling over a lot onto his back. He's been yelping when he tried this before, but isn't today - day one after the introduction of new drugs.
I'm basically videoing him for 24 hours, not to catch his dementia-like symptoms, but to catch his head shaking, and a new thing where he rubs his face along the floor with his two paws over his mouth, like he's trying to pull something off him.
I've recorded a few incidences of it today.
Also, of note, he's started rolling over a lot onto his back. He's been yelping when he tried this before, but isn't today - day one after the introduction of new drugs.
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Re: Legs giving way
Hi Caryll,
In fairness, after looking at the limited information regarding the condition, I do agree that he ticks pretty much all the boxes.
I've emailed the AHT for prices and advice, as there are varying prices etc on their website - I think some links on there need updating.
I'm sure the vet can draw some blood for me.
He seems a little better today - still weak and lethargic and facing walls, but occasionally curious what I'm up to. He's suspicious of the video camera, even though it's placed a fair way away from him.
In fairness, after looking at the limited information regarding the condition, I do agree that he ticks pretty much all the boxes.
I've emailed the AHT for prices and advice, as there are varying prices etc on their website - I think some links on there need updating.
I'm sure the vet can draw some blood for me.
He seems a little better today - still weak and lethargic and facing walls, but occasionally curious what I'm up to. He's suspicious of the video camera, even though it's placed a fair way away from him.
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Re: Legs giving way
Hi Keith, the link below maybe of use. I think the video is a very good idea at least for the vet to watch.
http://www.psbtc.org.uk/PSBTC/pages/shtm/l2q&a.shtml
http://www.psbtc.org.uk/PSBTC/pages/shtm/l2q&a.shtml
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Re: Legs giving way
Thanks Kathy.
I've saved the pages to show the vet.
I've saved the pages to show the vet.
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Re: Legs giving way
Day two on Gabapentin and Vivitonin.
Day four on the Canaural ear drops.
What a change in him.
I don't want to count any chickens but this is really quite incredible.
The falling over and walking into walls has stopped.
He's also bright and alert with it, rather than vacant and staring into space.
If I call him, he comes straight away. Up to now, he's just lain there, motionless.
He's also done something he hasn't done for months - jumped up to the kitchen worktop in pursuit of some food. He couldn't have looked upwards, let alone jumped up, just a couple of days ago.
Now, when he did land after successfully getting to the beef heart I'd cooked for him earlier, he let out a yelp.
This massive increase in mobility must be a clear sign the Gabapentin's working. The yelp is confirmation he has pain - spinal????
Now, Gabapentin has several uses but one of them is to treat neuropathic pain - so spinal column/nerve pain.
So, the question is: does he have nerve damage, or some type of infection?
Thankfully, the jumping up and landing is all on video, so the vet has clear evidence of what's going on - I think she'd agree that, on Wednesday, he could barely stand up.
I'll continue to video him into next week.
His tail is also wagging.
Absolutely bizarre.
Day four on the Canaural ear drops.
What a change in him.
I don't want to count any chickens but this is really quite incredible.
The falling over and walking into walls has stopped.
He's also bright and alert with it, rather than vacant and staring into space.
If I call him, he comes straight away. Up to now, he's just lain there, motionless.
He's also done something he hasn't done for months - jumped up to the kitchen worktop in pursuit of some food. He couldn't have looked upwards, let alone jumped up, just a couple of days ago.
Now, when he did land after successfully getting to the beef heart I'd cooked for him earlier, he let out a yelp.
This massive increase in mobility must be a clear sign the Gabapentin's working. The yelp is confirmation he has pain - spinal????
Now, Gabapentin has several uses but one of them is to treat neuropathic pain - so spinal column/nerve pain.
So, the question is: does he have nerve damage, or some type of infection?
Thankfully, the jumping up and landing is all on video, so the vet has clear evidence of what's going on - I think she'd agree that, on Wednesday, he could barely stand up.
I'll continue to video him into next week.
His tail is also wagging.
Absolutely bizarre.
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Re: Legs giving way
The way the L2HGA test is done has changed.
Self-explanatory email received from the Animal Health Trust:
Hello,
Yes, we do still offer this test – however we have changed the way that you request the test.
We do not accept blood samples for this test any longer; you will need to order a swab kit through our website below:
www.ahtdnatesting.co.uk/canine_tests
When you order the test, you will need to complete the details for the dog that you wish to test – please complete these as fully as possible, as the details you complete online will be printed on the certificate.
You will also be asked to pay for the test by credit or debit card, via a secure website – this is instead of sending payment with the sample.
The test for L2HGA only costs GB£48 – if you order both L2HGA and Hereditary Cataract tests together, the combined cost is GB£78.
Once we receive your order through the website, a kit will be sent to you within 2 working days.
From the date that we receive the sample back from you, results take up to 8 working days to complete. The results are emailed to you as soon as they are ready, with a PDF attachment containing your certificate.
[i]
So, swabs instead of blood testing now, a lower price, an arguably safer method of paying for the test and a faster turn around in getting results out.
Self-explanatory email received from the Animal Health Trust:
Hello,
Yes, we do still offer this test – however we have changed the way that you request the test.
We do not accept blood samples for this test any longer; you will need to order a swab kit through our website below:
www.ahtdnatesting.co.uk/canine_tests
When you order the test, you will need to complete the details for the dog that you wish to test – please complete these as fully as possible, as the details you complete online will be printed on the certificate.
You will also be asked to pay for the test by credit or debit card, via a secure website – this is instead of sending payment with the sample.
The test for L2HGA only costs GB£48 – if you order both L2HGA and Hereditary Cataract tests together, the combined cost is GB£78.
Once we receive your order through the website, a kit will be sent to you within 2 working days.
From the date that we receive the sample back from you, results take up to 8 working days to complete. The results are emailed to you as soon as they are ready, with a PDF attachment containing your certificate.
[i]
So, swabs instead of blood testing now, a lower price, an arguably safer method of paying for the test and a faster turn around in getting results out.
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Re: Legs giving way
Sounds like the new drugs could be working for him, but as you say dont count your chickens just yet.
Are you able to get the cost of the test kit on your insurance, if you have it? This could be a saving for you.
Very pleased to hear that things are working out, please keep all updated
Are you able to get the cost of the test kit on your insurance, if you have it? This could be a saving for you.
Very pleased to hear that things are working out, please keep all updated
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Re: Legs giving way
I think the L2 HGA test is worth getting done if only to rule it out. Even thought the medication seems to be working, it would be good to know that it definitely isn't L2 HGA.
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Re: Legs giving way
Spoke too soon.
Another seizure at 4am, followed by a 1.5 hour post-ictal phase.
The whole thing is on video and I'm waiting for the vets to open at 9am.
Will throw a load of cash at her and start all tests again from scratch - at least I have the reference blood test results from a couple of months ago when all this happened to refer to - to see if we have blood sugar/liver function/kidney function changes, etc.
I'm out of ideas - nothing fits any pattern.
Will order the L2HGA kit today.
Another seizure at 4am, followed by a 1.5 hour post-ictal phase.
The whole thing is on video and I'm waiting for the vets to open at 9am.
Will throw a load of cash at her and start all tests again from scratch - at least I have the reference blood test results from a couple of months ago when all this happened to refer to - to see if we have blood sugar/liver function/kidney function changes, etc.
I'm out of ideas - nothing fits any pattern.
Will order the L2HGA kit today.
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Re: Legs giving way
Just back from the vets.
The vet cleaned his ears out, agreed there was a nasty infection but ruled that out from causing his problems.
She thought L2 HGA unlikely as well from what he's presented with. The surgery is treating a Staffie with the condition and she's familiar with it.
She thought lung-worm unlikely as well.
She also said the seizure was unlikely to be true epilepsy, having watched the video - but agreed it was a fit or seizure without question. She commented on his frantic pacing afterwards that it was unusual in as much as it was fairly hyper and very prolonged.
Pretty much not prepared to leave without some progress, I asked her to re-run all his bloods, plus some additional panels, his electrolytes, perform a three sample stool analysis for lungworm, and do a swab for L2 HGA.
Bloods will be returned this afternoon, fecal sample analysis on Wednesday, and L2 HGA probably in about a fortnight.
She also suggested trying to get him onto a current clinical trial researching an (alleged) connection between food allergies and seizures (have an online search for such things as rosemary and fennel if you're curious).
Dog is flitting between manic and zoned out states of mind today, is walking ok, but has no balance, and no interest in doing anything.
The vet cleaned his ears out, agreed there was a nasty infection but ruled that out from causing his problems.
She thought L2 HGA unlikely as well from what he's presented with. The surgery is treating a Staffie with the condition and she's familiar with it.
She thought lung-worm unlikely as well.
She also said the seizure was unlikely to be true epilepsy, having watched the video - but agreed it was a fit or seizure without question. She commented on his frantic pacing afterwards that it was unusual in as much as it was fairly hyper and very prolonged.
Pretty much not prepared to leave without some progress, I asked her to re-run all his bloods, plus some additional panels, his electrolytes, perform a three sample stool analysis for lungworm, and do a swab for L2 HGA.
Bloods will be returned this afternoon, fecal sample analysis on Wednesday, and L2 HGA probably in about a fortnight.
She also suggested trying to get him onto a current clinical trial researching an (alleged) connection between food allergies and seizures (have an online search for such things as rosemary and fennel if you're curious).
Dog is flitting between manic and zoned out states of mind today, is walking ok, but has no balance, and no interest in doing anything.
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Re: Legs giving way
Since my last post, Marley has paced continuously, despite being put onto Epiphen, which should have sedated him.
When I say paced, I mean 8-12 hours at a time, non-stop, apart from when he gets stuck in corners of the room, which is basically every corner.
He'll pace for this time, then collapse from exhaustion, sleep for about an hour, then resume pacing.
He's lost the ability to find his water bowl, and can only find his food bowl when something smelly is put in there.
But, even then, he licks thin air above it.
I've been hand-feeding him very over-boiled rice to get some liquids into him.
He's only peed four times since Saturday and hasn't defecated at all.
The vet has just told me, quite strongly, that this is not normal behaviour on Epiphen and that her suspicions of a brain lesion are very strong.
I am absolutely knackered - on watch 24 hours a day to gently move him from a corner of the room (he walks to the corner, presses against it, then just stands there until either I move him, or he falls over).
He still reacts (very slowly) to being asked to sit. Everything else, including "dinner" brings nothing.
He had another seizure last night - he was conscious but fitting and shaking. But not thrashing around.
I am going to the vet tomorrow to get laxatives for him, and to discuss putting him to sleep. His condition has worsened dramatically, as if it wasn't already bad.
As much as I have tried to deny it for weeks, he has all the symptoms of an aggressive brain tumour.
I, and my ex-wife, have cried a lot - I'm in agony being the one who must make the decision.
The vet believes there is no hope.
I've never felt so bad - sobbing as I type this.
When I say paced, I mean 8-12 hours at a time, non-stop, apart from when he gets stuck in corners of the room, which is basically every corner.
He'll pace for this time, then collapse from exhaustion, sleep for about an hour, then resume pacing.
He's lost the ability to find his water bowl, and can only find his food bowl when something smelly is put in there.
But, even then, he licks thin air above it.
I've been hand-feeding him very over-boiled rice to get some liquids into him.
He's only peed four times since Saturday and hasn't defecated at all.
The vet has just told me, quite strongly, that this is not normal behaviour on Epiphen and that her suspicions of a brain lesion are very strong.
I am absolutely knackered - on watch 24 hours a day to gently move him from a corner of the room (he walks to the corner, presses against it, then just stands there until either I move him, or he falls over).
He still reacts (very slowly) to being asked to sit. Everything else, including "dinner" brings nothing.
He had another seizure last night - he was conscious but fitting and shaking. But not thrashing around.
I am going to the vet tomorrow to get laxatives for him, and to discuss putting him to sleep. His condition has worsened dramatically, as if it wasn't already bad.
As much as I have tried to deny it for weeks, he has all the symptoms of an aggressive brain tumour.
I, and my ex-wife, have cried a lot - I'm in agony being the one who must make the decision.
The vet believes there is no hope.
I've never felt so bad - sobbing as I type this.
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Re: Legs giving way
Oh, Keith I'm so sorry it's come to this for you and Marley. By the sound of things you are doing the right thing for him.
Nothing I, or anyone else, can say will take away your pain, but please know that we are all here for you if you need to talk.
My heart goes out to you at this most difficult time.
Caryll
Nothing I, or anyone else, can say will take away your pain, but please know that we are all here for you if you need to talk.
My heart goes out to you at this most difficult time.
Caryll
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Re: Legs giving way
Keith, I have been reading along since you started writing about this and hoping against hope for some good news. I am so, so very sorry to read your latest post. I know everyone else on the forum is too. Please know that we are all thinking of you and Marley.
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Re: Legs giving way
Keith, I really feel your pain. I and I'm sure nearly all of us have been there at some point along the way. It is the most painful and hardest decision we as dog parents will ever have to make. It's the last act of kindness we can give to our much loved friend.
I think after all that you and Marley have been through you know that it is the right decision to make. None of us could stand by and watch our dog suffer.
Please dont be afraid to come back to us and have a good rant and I'm sure a good sob as we will too, we are all very good listeners. Take care of yourself too.
I think after all that you and Marley have been through you know that it is the right decision to make. None of us could stand by and watch our dog suffer.
Please dont be afraid to come back to us and have a good rant and I'm sure a good sob as we will too, we are all very good listeners. Take care of yourself too.
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Re: Legs giving way
Have just read through this thread and just wanted to say so sorry to hear about what you're going through.
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Re: Legs giving way
Have been following your post for a while. I'm really sorry about the outcome of Marley's illness, its so sad to see someone you love in so much pain and confusion. It sounds like he's had a real time of it and I don't think it would be fair on him any more to be honest.
You've done the right thing and be assured you have done evrything you could, far more than many would have done. I'm so sorry for your loss.
You've done the right thing and be assured you have done evrything you could, far more than many would have done. I'm so sorry for your loss.
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Re: Legs giving way
I too have been reading your post. I am very sorry to read your latest post, my heart goes out to you. Remember we are all here for you.
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Re: Legs giving way
****ing lungworm.
I sought another opinion on the day Marley was due to be put to sleep and was told, immediately, that it was surely lungworm.
The vet I spoke to had already treated a staffy for lungworm and, as soon as I finished listing the timeline of symptoms as listed below, said: "I am convinced that's lungworm."
Marley has now been partly treated for it with Advocate (a second dose is needed in a month to complete the treatment) and is making an unbelievably fast recovery.
Here is a timeline of symptoms, some of which are not commonly revealed on lungworm sites but were confirmed by the vet. They might prove useful in the future for anyone else:
December: went to south west Wales for a week (lungworm hot spot).
January: developed hacking cough (think coughing up a fur ball). Excessive sneezing.
February: cough continued, puked yellow bile a few times. Excessive sneezing. Vet suggested he had a cold. No temperature.
March: became very lethargic and didn't want to jump onto sofa after walkies. Vomiting occasionally.
April: presented with sudden aggression, vacant stares, stiff neck, spinal pain, shivering, tremors, very withdrawn. Coughing has stopped at this point. Unable to walk more than a few hundred metres before collapsing.
Bloods normal. Vets suggested, variously, elbow/hip dysplasia and neck injury.
May: seizures began, Marley is sleeping continually and very narky. Bloods normal. Breathing is weird - like a double breath. Absolutely no energy.
June: very frequent seizures, unexplained shaking fits while conscious, and uncontrollable muscular spasms through his body. Weight begins to fall off him - far more than can be expected from diet. Bloods normal. His voice has gone weird - hoarse and raspy. Continuous nasal discharge. Vet suggests brain tumour.
July: begins to bleed very easily (I think I mentioned in a post that he nicked his bum on the decking timber and it wouldn't clot) seizures worsen, post-ictal phases are just unbelievable (12 hours pacing, hour's collapsed sleep, 12 hours pacing.....) All stools passed are carrying lots of bright red blood (not the dark intestinal stuff). Bloods remain normal. 3 stool sample for lungworm is negative. Vet warns that 3 stool test is often negative despite being positive for lungworm. Vet recommends putting him to sleep.
I sought another opinion on the day Marley was due to be put to sleep and was told, immediately, that it was surely lungworm.
The vet I spoke to had already treated a staffy for lungworm and, as soon as I finished listing the timeline of symptoms as listed below, said: "I am convinced that's lungworm."
Marley has now been partly treated for it with Advocate (a second dose is needed in a month to complete the treatment) and is making an unbelievably fast recovery.
Here is a timeline of symptoms, some of which are not commonly revealed on lungworm sites but were confirmed by the vet. They might prove useful in the future for anyone else:
December: went to south west Wales for a week (lungworm hot spot).
January: developed hacking cough (think coughing up a fur ball). Excessive sneezing.
February: cough continued, puked yellow bile a few times. Excessive sneezing. Vet suggested he had a cold. No temperature.
March: became very lethargic and didn't want to jump onto sofa after walkies. Vomiting occasionally.
April: presented with sudden aggression, vacant stares, stiff neck, spinal pain, shivering, tremors, very withdrawn. Coughing has stopped at this point. Unable to walk more than a few hundred metres before collapsing.
Bloods normal. Vets suggested, variously, elbow/hip dysplasia and neck injury.
May: seizures began, Marley is sleeping continually and very narky. Bloods normal. Breathing is weird - like a double breath. Absolutely no energy.
June: very frequent seizures, unexplained shaking fits while conscious, and uncontrollable muscular spasms through his body. Weight begins to fall off him - far more than can be expected from diet. Bloods normal. His voice has gone weird - hoarse and raspy. Continuous nasal discharge. Vet suggests brain tumour.
July: begins to bleed very easily (I think I mentioned in a post that he nicked his bum on the decking timber and it wouldn't clot) seizures worsen, post-ictal phases are just unbelievable (12 hours pacing, hour's collapsed sleep, 12 hours pacing.....) All stools passed are carrying lots of bright red blood (not the dark intestinal stuff). Bloods remain normal. 3 stool sample for lungworm is negative. Vet warns that 3 stool test is often negative despite being positive for lungworm. Vet recommends putting him to sleep.
Keith- Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
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Re: Legs giving way
Keith, no wonder you were pulling your hair out, what a catalogue of symptoms and thank you for listing them all. Has the other vet given the all clear yet or suggest a full recovery ?
Kathy- Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
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Re: Legs giving way
OMG! So glad you decided to get a second opinion, the first vet should be ashamed of himself! I hope he's not going to be charging you full fees for your visits! Poor Marley could have been just a statistic by now.
How is he in himself now?
How is he in himself now?
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Re: Legs giving way
kathytake2 wrote:Keith, no wonder you were pulling your hair out, what a catalogue of symptoms and thank you for listing them all. Has the other vet given the all clear yet or suggest a full recovery ?
The vet is hopeful of a recovery.
The vet also said it is one of the most difficult infections to diagnose - but the unexplainable spinal pain and thin blood were the two main clues - these appear to be mid-stage symptoms.
He said the three stool test is not conclusive for diagnosis and neither is the BAL test.
Treatment is on the balance of probability subsequent to the symptoms.
Marley got a lot worse after initial treatment, then started to get a lot better - very quickly.
His mental faculty has completely returned as far as I can determine.
I'm having a right time keeping him quiet at the moment - it's like he's two-years-old - he's trying to bomb around the house but I've been instructed to keep him fairly still.
I'm actually amazed that all head-pressing, pacing, vacant stares, getting stuck in corners etc has stopped - apparently this is quite normal in end-stage lungworm infection.
Now, I have a dog which is leaping on and off the furniture constantly, as though he's checking that he really can move again.
Keith- Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
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Dogs Name(s) : Wingo and Captain Weemo
Dog(s) Ages : Probably about four and, er, ten maybe?
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Re: Legs giving way
Would be great to see some other pics of him Keith, have a look at the link below to post them on here:
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t12018-how-to-post-a-photos-onto-the-forum
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t12018-how-to-post-a-photos-onto-the-forum
Kathy- Staffy-Bull-Terrier VIP Member
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Support total : 4006
Posts : 42107
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