undershoot teeth.

can some one give me a good discription of this? I think Romeo might have it, which pretty much crosses him out of the show ring. his bottom teeth are more forward then his upper teeth. he has a sissor bite... but its upside down.....

Example picture of undershot teeth. I hope this image helps to explain what it meant by the term.

Kathy... there is no picture....

Try having a look at this link:

http://www.felsteadgundogs.com/canineundershotandovershotjaws.htm

damn... i'd say romeo has a very tight under bite. well... so, no showing for Romeo i guess...thats ok, thre is always agility

i was just thinking, Romeo's undershoot is VERY VERY tight, not so bad. and in the CK standard it says badly undershot or overshot is a fault. i wonder if romeos will be faulted?

If you could post a picture it may help. Someone here may be able to help??

Romeo wrote:i was just thinking, Romeo's undershoot is VERY VERY tight, not so bad. and in the CK standard it says badly undershot or overshot is a fault. i wonder if romeos will be faulted?

In the UK now judges have been told to heavily penalise undershot jaws if it makes the canines tight (ie lower canines pointing in towrads the upper gum).

An undershot jaw always used to penalised quite heavily in staffords in the UK anyway.

An undershot as in an underbite like a bulldog? It seems both Romeos are throw backs-your Romeo has the underbite and mine has the roach back and bowed legs!

his canines are fine, they sit rather nicely. its those little front teeth, they sissor over the upper front teeth... i have no idea what they are called....other wise all his teeth are fine

i'm going to go see Romeo's breeder next week i think and have her take a look at it. Like i always said, that if he didnt make it in the ring i would just find something else, like agility, obedience, dog dance or tracking. i think romeo would get a kick out of tracking or agility.

I can remember reading somewhere that Staffys do very well at agility, this may well be the way to go.

An undershot jaw would be heavily penalised in the showring.
If it is the bottom insisors, the little front teeth that are forward, as long as they have a scissor bite, I have known some breeders put elastic bands on them to bring them back and take them off just before a show ........ surprising some things they do.

Debbie wrote:some breeders put elastic bands on them to bring them back and take them off just before a show ........ surprising some things they do.

the more i learn the more i hate show breeders i dont who worse anymore byb or show breeders

pffft Romeo would never let that happen, its an effort just to look at his teeth at the momnet.

Not all breeders and show dogs are bad, but there are some that spoilt it for everyone else with how desprate they become. they are only concirned with the prestige. but there are also good people who love their dogs, i'm lucky to have gotten romeo from such a good breeder, she breeds very responsibly.

Well we show so don't tar us all with the same brush, a lot of show people I would gladly shoot myself.
Most of us do have the good of the breed at heart, all our dogs are pets and have gone to pet homes first before considering showing. A dog we bred a real stunner had the same problem with his bite and no way would we consider doing it.

after the bbc3 pedigree dogs exposed it peed me off i tell people to buy kc reg dog becasue it's the right thing to do, then you find out what some are doing also found out that Syringomyelia is in staffy also

then you find out what some are doing also found out that Syringomyelia is in staffy also

I understand your feelings exactly, about the program and that is the reaction it intended. After two years of research by the program makers all that was shown was the negative side and I agree totally with what has been said the breeders involved should be shot.
With the amount of staffords being bred it is obvious there are going to be occurances of most diseases, as a DNA marker hasn't been found yet even with years of testing for it by the responsible cavalier breeders. I don't know of any staffords that have had it but then not enough breeders are honest.

With regard to your new breeders section why would I not be a responsible enough breeder to go in it because I linebreed, sound healthy dogs? Not that I want to be in it anyway.

We have bred 2 litters in 12 years but I don't class myself as a breeder because we only bred a litter when we wanted something to show ourselves. Took 2 years to find the right stud for our bitch and decided on a half brother, half sister mating. Same sire different mothers. I looked into the background of all the dogs asked a lot of people about the health and temperament of them. No dna testing at the time for L2 Or Hc. They are 10 years old this year all healthy, sound animals. no mouth faults. In the ring we had the 4th top dog of all time, cc winner, rcc winner, two other crufts qualifiers. She had one litter. Our ch dog was used on a few bitches and produced sound healthy animals too. I decided if the bitch was good enough and said no to a lot of people, didn't get me a good name, but I don't really care. Money isn't the main thing to us, probably because we have never had much.
I decided on an outcross mating for the bitch we kept, when she was 3, this litter although produced healthy puppies, but had more faults, we had problems with fronts, feet and mouths. Doesn't mean a lot to the non show person just trying to get across why we linebreed. She had one litter and was also spayed. There was no need for us to have more than one litter from them we had the bitch we wanted to carry the line on from both of them.Both litters were born and raised in living room. I know where every one of our babies are and get regular updates from all the owners.

If any of my dogs had come back a carrier for any of the known diseases I would not have bred from them. Healthy dogs is what I have bred for.
I dont think much about the kennel club accredited breeders scheme or the now kennel club assured breeders scheme, you have to pay for the privilage of being on it and it doesnt mean that they breed the best dogs, it isn't policed and this statement

It’s important to note that even when health testing is ‘required’ a bad result does not prevent a dog from being bred. So even if a dog has a poor hip score or is found to be affected by a disease from DNA testing, it can still be bred.

really gets my back up. I would like the kennel club to get some balls and not register any litters from non tested parents also if carriers, compulsary litter screening. The dna test for L2 has been around for 7 years now so there is no excuse.
It is like anything where a lot of money is involved scruples go out the window.

With regards to crufts its a nightmare we stopped going years ago, the only dog we ever went with was our ch dog, people wanted to see him from all over the world but he loved the attention and could cope with it. When he turned 7 and was in veteran we stopped going. All dogs are to be on show to the public all day and not allowed to move off their benches, like hell no way was he ever kept in a cage, didn't even take one. If he needed to rest he lied on a blanket. Your not allowed to leave before 4pm, so if a puppy is judged at 9.00 and doesn't win you can't go home until 4 how is that in the dogs welfare? Its a real eye opener.

Less than half of the stafford litters registered are from show breeders and the DNA tests wouldnt be available now if it wasn't for us
pushing for it and allowing the blood from our dogs to be tested.

There are a lot of show people like us, its just the bad ones you hear of so don't try and put people off buying from reputable breeders, its just hard finding them.

the breeder forum is to help people to find a healthy dog, in a prefect world i would like to add a beware forum also for bad show breeder but that would make alot of trouble for the forum and me.

I dont agree with any inbreding or close line breding i just dont think it right we wouldn't so why should we do it put other animals thru it.

agree with you, kennel club at times just aint fit for purpose at times

If any of my dogs had come back a carrier for any of the known diseases I would not have bred from them. Healthy dogs is what I have bred for.
I dont think much about the kennel club accredited breeders scheme or the now kennel club assured breeders scheme, you have to pay for the privilage of being on it and it doesnt mean that they breed the best dogs, it isn't policed and this statement

It’s important to note that even when health testing is ‘required’ a bad result does not prevent a dog from being bred. So even if a dog has a poor hip score or is found to be affected by a disease from DNA testing, it can still be bred.

really gets my back up. I would like the kennel club to get some balls and not register any litters from non tested parents also if carriers, compulsary litter screening. The dna test for L2 has been around for 7 years now so there is no excuse.
It is like anything where a lot of money is involved scruples go out the window.

Don't know what you think we are putting them through?

your forum your opinion, but the breeders section isn't going to have many in it with your rules.

I've had enough of this so guess I'll go and give my 3 generations of linebred bitches 9, 6 and 13 months a good walk and run ....... yep guess what they can do it.

IMO the staffordshire bull terrier club and the kennel club should be doing what we are doing with the breeder forum we have got, they should force all health test to be done if they dont they should be place on a bad or beware list. this would help the breed no ends and also get joe public trusting the clubs again.

Debbie wrote:Don't know what you think we are putting them through?

your forum your opinion, but the breeders section isn't going to have many in it with your rules.

I've had enough of this so guess I'll go and give my 3 generations of linebred bitches 9, 6 and 13 months a good walk and run ....... yep guess what they can do it.

Would you like have kids with a family members?

even the vet said close line breeding is nearly just as bad as inbreding.

I would rather have a handful of good breeders & get the message across that bad breeding isn't accepted anymore then have a huge list of bad ones.

What rubbish, we are talking dogs here, not humans. So i'm a bad breeder because I line breed? The dogs we have bred speak for themselves. If the conditions are in the genes its irrelevant whether they are line bred or outcrossed.

any inbreding is bad full stop most of the problems today is becasue of inbreding and no1 can say other wise.

Steve wrote:any inbreding is bad full stop most of the problems today is becasue of inbreding and no1 can say other wise.

How many litters have you bred?

Yes mother/son, father/daughter, brother/sister matings should never have been allowed but the problems have got so bad because of breeders sticking their heads in the sand when conditions arose and continuing to breed from affected dogs.

There is a lot more to responsible breeding than not having the same dog more than twice in the first 5 generations of the pedigree and you need to understand that.

With Syringomyelia there is no test for it yet because the condition can be caused by trauma and other factors, it cant be pinned down to just being hereditary

i dont need to be a breeder/vet to know keeping it in the family is bad for anything and the line can only go so far before problem will pop up.

Close breeding is bad. That's a fact. The KC have now banned the registration of pups from borther/sister, mother/son & father/daughter matings.

I would go at least one stage further & say that half sister/half brother matings should be banned as well.

And debbie, I know that Ch. Stormpike Dark Lord is from such a line, and that he is a healthy & beautiful dog, but I still think it's wrong.

However, this topic was not about inbreeding or linebreeding, but about whether or not a dog's mouth was undershot! Let's go back to the original topic, please.

Tinkerbell also has an undershot jaw, hers I think seems quite a way out. Not really sure though, as she is the first dog I have seen with it. Doesn't do her any harm though, I actually only notcied a month or two after we had her when I went to check her mouth for something!

To be honest, an undershot mouth won't affect a dog's health very much at all. So unless you're going to show or breed it doesn't matter a jot!

An overshot mouth can produce difficulties with eating, but only if it's quite severe.

Caryll wrote:Close breeding is bad. That's a fact. The KC have now banned the registration of pups from borther/sister, mother/son & father/daughter matings.

I would go at least one stage further & say that half sister/half brother matings should be banned as well.

And debbie, I know that Ch. Stormpike Dark Lord is from such a line, and that he is a healthy & beautiful dog, but I still think it's wrong.

However, this topic was not about inbreeding or linebreeding, but about whether or not a dog's mouth was undershot! Let's go back to the original topic, please.

Don't worry this is the last post I will be making on this forum but I didn't start this, I expressed my opinion to a comment made, with the experience to back it up, not just with Dark Lord but his siblings but their offspring too. Can't understand how breeding healthy dogs is wrong. Yes I have been careful which bitches he has been used on and when we mated his sister it was a total outcross, then came back in and used a son of duke on her daughter, to try and get back the traits we lost, which we did, guess that doesn't make me responsible either, or the amount of hours it took researching pedigrees, going over dogs, finding out from the honest ones the health of dogs in the pedigree and if anything had cropped up and ignoring the *.
Funny how you just picked out the half brother/ half sister part of all I have said.
Carry on the way you want and the stafford wont look like a stafford anymore and the byb will rule who couldnt give a monkeys about the standard or the health of them. YES there are bad show breeders who just don't care but what am I supposed to do when I am not one of them and all thats done on here is slag all show people off.
The programme collected 2 years worth of filming of pedigree dogs, Duke was filmed most of the day at crufts in 2008 and all that was shown with careful editing was the bad side of breeding, which SHOULD have been exposed because they shouldn't get away with it. But show the other side too, the responsible breeders, who might carefully linebreed and who have been at the forefront of helping the aht find the genetic markers so DNA tests can be available and don't breed from unhealthy dogs.

Debbie wrote:not just with Dark Lord but his siblings but their offspring too. Can't understand how breeding healthy dogs is wrong.

vets will say otherwise on the matter,

Debbie wrote:Carry on the way you want and the stafford wont look like a stafford anymore and the byb will rule who couldnt give a monkeys about the standard or the health of them.

If breeder who carrying on what they are doing the staffy will end up like bulldog or even cavalier king charles spaniel it's a ticking time bomb waiting to happen.

At the moment i feel like scraping everything to do with the kennel clubs and clubs it's clear most breeder dont care about their dogs becasue they wouldn't keep it in the family so much if they did.

hmmm its just the insissors that are a touch over shot. it doesnt seem to bother him in the least, hasnt effected anything he does. I did have plans to show him, but its all the same to me, he's my pet fristmost. I'm so attatched to him i treat him better then most people.
Romeo's teeth are still growing, not all of them have fully sturfaced, i'm pretty sure the last of his baby teeth have fallen though, i hope they have, i'm since of him smelling like old blood
but i'm pretty sure his jaw shape wont change too much he's 6mths on the 27th. but his head does still have growing to do.
sorry this isnt a very good picture, but he was being awkward and my phone cam sucks pretty bad.

Yes, that's undershot. Some would call a close one like that a reverse scissor bite & it wouldn't be penalised as much as a badly undershot mouth. But you'll always have a problem in the showring when there are others present who have perfect scissor bite.

Bella's teeth are sort of half and half. On the right her two top incisors sit in front of the bottom ones, and on the left the bottom incisors sit in front of the top. It did worry me a bit when I first noticed it but it doesn't affect her eating.

no it doesnt effect romeo at all. it does dent his showing, but not as a beautiful boy

He is a beautiful boy!

Just had a look at Ty's mouth. His bite seems just right according to that link. (scissor bite - top row just over bottom) I have never looked at this before and I have learned something new.