Troy's Behavioural Problems *Video Added*

Hi all,

I have been using the 'stop and turn' technique with Troy to stop him pulling and he seems to be going well, expect for every now and again he goes nuts and doesn't listen and pulls for whatever reason.

Once he tries to pull, I say 'heal', stop, turn around and walk a few paces in the opposite direction before turning back around and walking in the direction I was previously headed. If he pulls again, I do the same thing until he walks nicely, is this the correct method?

Secondly, in regards to the reason I started this topic. I have been looking into techniques to stop him pulling and within the link below, this bloke suggests to get them walking loosely on a lead before the heal technique which is getting them to walk directly at your side. So it appears he believes it is okay for the dog to walk in front of you as long as it is not pulling, but I have read elsewhere that it is very important not to let your dog walk in front of you as it is the dominant ones in a pack that lead the way and they would see themselves as dominant leader by walking in front of you.

So, who is right? Is walking on a loose lead acceptable even though they are walking in front of you?

Here is a link to the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT8VDgR_Koo

Thanks.

You are using the right method. For the loose lead I think it is a matter of opinion and training beliefs and techniques. I don't think there is anything with your dog walking in front of you as long as it is not pulling and responds to your commands

You're doing fine.

I have trained my boy to walk to 'heel', but only when I actually say the word. At other times he walks a bit in front of me, but on a loose lead. I used to do the whole competition-head-wrapped-around-my-leg-heelwork routine, but nowadays I'm happy enough to walk comfortably along with my dog a little ahead of me as long as he will stop or come back to my side when I tell him to.

Romeo is trained to walk to heel, off lead. He will walk right next to me and stop at kerbsides. He will walk past other dogs and completely ignore them. I can not for the life of me though get him to walk to heel when on the lead. I can get him to stop pulling (unless hes smelt a fox-then good luck!) but walk to heel? Forget it. He'll walk slightly ahead of me on a loose lead. Probably my fault, he's hardly ever on a lead, hes much better behaved when off. I think he concentrates more because he knows i'm not holding onto him.

shakespearesdog wrote:Romeo is trained to walk to heel, off lead. He will walk right next to me and stop at kerbsides. He will walk past other dogs and completely ignore them. I can not for the life of me though get him to walk to heel when on the lead. I can get him to stop pulling (unless hes smelt a fox-then good luck!) but walk to heel? Forget it. He'll walk slightly ahead of me on a loose lead. Probably my fault, he's hardly ever on a lead, hes much better behaved when off. I think he concentrates more because he knows i'm not holding onto him.

Wow my dogs are exactly the same. They heel perfectly off lead never moving ahead of my pace and stuck to either leg like glue.....on lead......awful! They just wont do it lol

Cool, thanks for the responses.

I think it may be working, he seems to walk nicely sometimes, but once he gets excited, see's a cat, dog or something the whole walk is then destroyed. He becomes excited and does not calm down. Starts looking in every garden and poking his head through every gate we walk past etc and pulling.

It is really frustrating and makes me want to just cut the walk short and take him home! Not very enjoyable walking Troy a lot of the time at the moment unfortunately.

Gee wrote:It is really frustrating and makes me want to just cut the walk short and take him home! Not very enjoyable walking Troy a lot of the time at the moment unfortunately.

One step at a time.

He'll get there, but all this training business is very new to him & so are the walks, by the sound of it!

I think you are doing wonders with him!

Yeh, it sounds and looks like the poor sod has never been exercised before. Its a vicious circle, the dog gets really excited by walking so pulls so the owner is reluctent to take him or train him, so he gets even more excited by the walk! He'll settle down eventually. He'll probably be a lot better when he can go for a nice, long off lead run and burn off all the excess energy.
How much exercise are you giving him at the moment, out of interest?

Ty is also better off lead. He does walk slightly in front without pulling on the lead but if I tie the leash around my waist he walks to heel asif there is not lead.

Caryll wrote:

Gee wrote:It is really frustrating and makes me want to just cut the walk short and take him home! Not very enjoyable walking Troy a lot of the time at the moment unfortunately.

One step at a time.

He'll get there, but all this training business is very new to him & so are the walks, by the sound of it!

I hope he does!

vanessa wrote:

I think you are doing wonders with him!

Thank you.

shakespearesdog wrote:Yeh, it sounds and looks like the poor sod has never been exercised before. Its a vicious circle, the dog gets really excited by walking so pulls so the owner is reluctent to take him or train him, so he gets even more excited by the walk! He'll settle down eventually. He'll probably be a lot better when he can go for a nice, long off lead run and burn off all the excess energy.
How much exercise are you giving him at the moment, out of interest?

I walk him for about 45 minutes in the morning, he gets walked midday by my brother..not sure for how long, I walk him again for another 45 minutes when I get back from work and I walk him in the evening for 10-15 minutes so he can do his business for bed.

He gets very long walks and excursions on a weekend too.

He's not a pain ALL the time, just half the time

It's just when he decides to go on one, there is no stopping him! He looks in every garden when walking up roads sometimes too..right pain!

Recently he whines when he is going for a walk now and jumps up at the porch door! He never used to do this before. My neighbour has cats next door, so the first thing he does is zoom out of the porch door and look around for them! So he is excited before we have even left the garden.

" it appears he believes it is okay for the dog to walk in front of you as long as it is not pulling, but I have read elsewhere that it is very important not to let your dog walk in front of you as it is the dominant ones in a pack that lead the way and they would see themselves as dominant leader by walking in front of you."

Dogs, compared to humans, are very simple creatures. They are pack animals and a pack follows it's leader. If your dog is in front of you, he is leading, and he has no doubt about it.

It's best to start indoors, before you set out, by getting your dog calm and relaxed before you step outside. Dogs, in a natural state, live in dens and understand very well the difference between inside the den and outside and if you can't get calm obedience inside your den, you will struggle to achieve it outside.
This takes quite a bit of time to begin with but you are establishing a pattern of behaviour that will stay in place for all the time that you have the dog.
When you pick up the lead, if your dog gets exited, wait, calmly and quietly, until your dog calms down and goes into a waiting mode before you reward him by putting on the lead. If he gets exited again, wait, calmly and quietly, until he calms down and is waiting for your next move.
At the door, make sure that your dog is behind you or alongside and waiting before you open the door.
I say use a lead.
Harnesses are designed to help a dog to pull and that's not what you want. I use a soft rope slip lead, not a chain or similar.

When you open the door, make sure that he is waiting for you to make that first move to the outside world before you move off.

All the time, during this exercise, be patent and calm. give your dog time to understand what you are asking of him. Once he's ready step outside to begin the walk.

Dogs are like a mirror of you their master and incredibly sensitive to your mood. If you're tense or excited your dog will give you tense and excited, but magnified.
This will take a fair time to begin with, but it's worth it. After a few repetitions your dog will 'get it' and will fall into place without corrections or commands because he will know his place.
Try to do all of this silently, using just your calmness and gentle corrections with the lead to get his attention. Dogs do not understand speech. To them it's just noises and to a dog, noise represents excitement.
What they hear, if you're trying to calm them down with your voice, especially if you raise your voice in anger or frustration is BARK BARK BARK!

<<once he gets excited, sees a cat, dog or something the whole walk is then destroyed. He becomes excited and does not calm down. Starts looking in every garden and poking his head through every gate we walk past etc. and pulling.>>

If the pattern breaks down, regard it as an opportunity to reinforce the message that his job is to calmly follow you. Stop, collect yourself, make sure that you are calm and in control, get the dog back in position and when he's back to waiting mode, move off.
The most important thing is to check yourself. Always be patient and calm.
Dogs are like a mirror of you their master and incredibly sensitive to your mood. If you're tense or excited your dog will give you tense and excited, but magnified!
This will all take a fair time to begin with, but it's worth it. After a few repetitions your dog will 'get it' and will fall into place without corrections or commands because he will know his place in your pack.
Try to do all of this silently, using just your calmness and gentle corrections with the lead to get his attention. Dogs do not understand speech. To them it's just noises and to a dog, noise represents excitement.
What they hear, if you're trying to calm them down with your voice, especially if you raise your voice in anger or frustration is BARK BARK BARK!


Always be calm be patient and in control. Remember that what you want is a dog that is calm and under control, a dog that follows a calm confident leader. For that to happen you need to be calm and in control yourself. That's the hardest part and it will teach you a lot about yourself.
Here's a link to a video of me with three dogs. This is how it should look.
http://fwd4.me/0vjO

Hello,

Before I reply, just thought I'd let you know some information on Troy as it may shed some light on his behaviour.

I rescued Troy only about 3 weeks ago. It appears he wasn't walked very often, wasn't trained and I am not sure how much he was fed either. Because if this, I don't think he is very used to being on a leash and the sounds, sights and smells we come across everyday. The sight of a dog or cat, motorbikes or even someone just patting him and saying hi can cause him to pull in their direction while whimpering and crying immensely. This can sometimes stop once they out of his sight, but he usually carries on being in an excited state once he has had an encounter.

He also came to me with a severe allergy causing cracked ears, loss of hair and he had an ear infection and eye infection.

I am happy to say I have moved him onto James Wellbeloved and he ears look great, his coat looks better and some patches / scars have healed. His ear infection is gone and he is on drops for his eye infection.

Dogs, compared to humans, are very simple creatures. They are pack animals and a pack follows it's leader. If your dog is in front of you, he is leading, and he has no doubt about it.

Oh dear. All this time I have been trying to make him walk on a loose leash but let him walk in front of me as long as he did not pull. What should I do now then? Try and make him walk by my side at all times? Which method do you recommend?

It's best to start indoors, before you set out, by getting your dog calm and relaxed before you step outside. Dogs, in a natural state, live in dens and understand very well the difference between inside the den and outside and if you can't get calm obedience inside your den, you will struggle to achieve it outside.

I do try this. I make sure he is sat down and is not in an excited state before I put on his leash.

This takes quite a bit of time to begin with but you are establishing a pattern of behaviour that will stay in place for all the time that you have the dog.
When you pick up the lead, if your dog gets exited, wait, calmly and quietly, until your dog calms down and goes into a waiting mode before you reward him by putting on the lead. If he gets exited again, wait, calmly and quietly, until he calms down and is waiting for your next move.

I can certainly try but Troy gets extremely excited and instead of waiting calmly becomes frustrated and excited and starts his vocalising. He moans and whimpers a lot and there is no end to it.

At the door, make sure that your dog is behind you or alongside and waiting before you open the door.
I say use a lead.

I have ditched the harness and I do have him on a lead now. Once I leave the door I then enter a porch. He becomes very excited in the porch as my next door neighbour has 4 cats and he jumps up trying to look out for them and gets very excited. If I try make him wait and calm down he starts his very loud whimpering and moaning, which again doesn't seem to end. Any suggestions?

Harnesses are designed to help a dog to pull and that's not what you want. I use a soft rope slip lead, not a chain or similar.

I use a collar and chain at present.

When you open the door, make sure that he is waiting for you to make that first move to the outside world before you move off.

I'll try, but he tries to shoot out in anticipation of seeing next doors cats! He doesn't seem aggressive towards them, just whimpers and moans as if he wants to play.

All the time, during this exercise, be patent and calm. give your dog time to understand what you are asking of him. Once he's ready step outside to begin the walk.

I will keep this in mind.

Dogs are like a mirror of you their master and incredibly sensitive to your mood. If you're tense or excited your dog will give you tense and excited, but magnified.
This will take a fair time to begin with, but it's worth it. After a few repetitions your dog will 'get it' and will fall into place without corrections or commands because he will know his place.
Try to do all of this silently, using just your calmness and gentle corrections with the lead to get his attention. Dogs do not understand speech. To them it's just noises and to a dog, noise represents excitement.
What they hear, if you're trying to calm them down with your voice, especially if you raise your voice in anger or frustration is BARK BARK BARK!

Okay, I'll try. If he is moaning and jumping at the porch door what can I do? Just ignore him? Any tips for trying to stop him from being so vocal all the time?

<<once he gets excited, sees a cat, dog or something the whole walk is then destroyed. He becomes excited and does not calm down. Starts looking in every garden and poking his head through every gate we walk past etc. and pulling.>>

If the pattern breaks down, regard it as an opportunity to reinforce the message that his job is to calmly follow you. Stop, collect yourself, make sure that you are calm and in control, get the dog back in position and when he's back to waiting mode, move off.
The most important thing is to check yourself. Always be patient and calm.
Dogs are like a mirror of you their master and incredibly sensitive to your mood. If you're tense or excited your dog will give you tense and excited, but magnified!

Do I need to say anything, his name, stop, heal? Or just correct him and make him wait before moving off?

This will all take a fair time to begin with, but it's worth it. After a few repetitions your dog will 'get it' and will fall into place without corrections or commands because he will know his place in your pack.
Try to do all of this silently, using just your calmness and gentle corrections with the lead to get his attention. Dogs do not understand speech. To them it's just noises and to a dog, noise represents excitement.
What they hear, if you're trying to calm them down with your voice, especially if you raise your voice in anger or frustration is BARK BARK BARK!

Think you may of answered my last question above

Can you elaborate on how I can make him walk by my side rather than in front of me and do I need to use any verbal commands?

Thank you very much.

Always be calm be patient and in control. Remember that what you want is a dog that is calm and under control, a dog that follows a calm confident leader. For that to happen you need to be calm and in control yourself. That's the hardest part and it will teach you a lot about yourself.
Here's a link to a video of me with three dogs. This is how it should look.
http://fwd4.me/0vjO

I watched the video. I can't even get my one dog to work like that. Why did you mention it was thanks to Cesar Milan, are you using his techniques? If so, which?

Thanks.

I disagree entirely that letting a dog walk in front means he's the boss. Without wanting to sound like a megalomaniac Romeo is completely in my power and he knows I'm in charge. If I ask him to 'walk nicely please' then he will stop leaning on the lead and walk next to me, but he is still a step ahead. I can always hold his lead with one finger.
I recommend that while you are training him you walk him with a collar (not a harness) and a very short lead, this will give you more control. Harnesses are great, don't get me wrong, but they disguise the problem and don't solve it. A thick padded collar would be best so he doesn't hurt his neck. Slip lead is a terrible idea, he could garrotte himself.
When Romeo is in a harness he will pull more, because he can throw his whole body into it. And I will let him pull more, because I can feel it less then with his collar. So harnesses are good for us but not good for training!

All your questions concern Troy's excitement.
Remember, dogs are much simpler than us complicated humans and it's unfair, in fact it's ridiculous, to expect them to understand us. It's much better if we try to understand them and they are our best teachers. Study them, learn to read the small signs, get in tune with your dog. Remember that they don't think as we do, they react and they react quickly. See food-eat it. see cat-chase it.
These thoughts are not about dog training. Dog training is perhaps more concerned with obeying commands.
This is more about honouring the dog's needs and being able to communicate with him/her in a way that he/she will understand.
It's about getting your dog to see you as her pack leader.
Shouting doesn't work, it just adds excitement. Frustration and anger don't work. Dog's don't follow angry frustrated leaders. Patience works, repetition works. gentle firmness works. just keep doing it calmly, patiently, over and over. He will get it, and much sooner than you think.
What you're trying to achieve, always, is that calm waiting state. Waiting for you to make the next move. Following your lead.
People say 'He thinks he's human!' No he doesn't. He thinks you're a dog.
Your dog sees himself as a member of your pack.
In your pack, in any pack of dogs, dominance and submission, leader and follower, do not mean a master and slave relationship. It must be a partnership.
All these things, over and over again, are about dominance on your part and submission from your dog and that is what you must aim for. In this sense dominance is a good thing.
Dominance and submission mean different things in the dog world compared to the human.
Dogs are pack animals and in every pack there is a dominant dog to which the rest of the pack are submissive.
The dominant dog is not necessarily the biggest and is never aggressive. He (or she) simply has the most dominant state of mind. Being the pack leader is not the easiest job. He/she makes all the decisions and the other dogs follow his lead. If he gets up and moves, the others follow. If he stops, they stop. In a pack there is one leader and the rest are followers. That means that all dogs can become followers to their pack-leader human/s. and for them it's a much easier life. No decisions to be made, no need to be on guard, scouting for danger all the time, just relax and follow their leader. And that's you.
This is all about you, rather than about your dog. The dog will get the picture very quickly if you can become a calm, confident pack leader.

My Staffie Rosie, my current teacher, deserves a mention here. We are her third owners and she came to us a year ago after she had been taken into the vets where my daughter works, to be destroyed because she had bitten her owner while fighting with his other dog over a ball.
She will absolutely do a full wall of death around our front room if I wind her up enough, but she will also do this.

http://fwd4.me/0vqu

and this.

http://fwd4.me/0vr4

There's a lot of detail here but not enough. The devil is in the detail and you have to learn that from your dog.
Excitement is easy to generate. Just get excited yourself and then watch your dog instantly mirror your behaviour. That's what they do. They are mirrors to us.
Calmness, steadiness, trust, and gentleness is what the best dogs have and they get it from their owners.
The tricky bit, the really tricky bit, is remaining calm, steady, trustful and gentle yourself, in all situations, so that your dog can mirror that behaviour. If your dog is misbehaving, check yourself
When your dog is calm, it means no excitement at all. His stance is not important. Standing, sitting, walking or lying down, a dog can be excited. He can also do all those things calmly, and for the dog himself (or herself), that's a much more comfortable state of mind to live in.
At first, this will take a lot of patience. Staffies have amazing willpower, that's one of the charming things about their characters, and it will take as long as it takes.
It's hard work but the rewards are well worth it because you learn to 'read' your dog, to see the subtle differences between, say, curiosity (dogs are curious by nature) and the dangerous focus that is the beginning of aggression or prey drive. You will also, and perhaps more importantly for Troy, be able to correct him before he gets excited. If you recognise the first signs. then you can give a tiny, gentle correction, perhaps just a quiet 'no'. An early, gentle correction that will stop a situation escalating and return your dog to the calm state that you want. It will also make it easier for him to meet other dogs. Other dogs will react to his state of mind and If your dog is in a calm state, any meeting will probably be easier and if you don't like the way the other dog is behaving, calmly move on.

Dogs are born blind and deaf. For weeks their only contact with the world is through their nose and even after their eyes and later their ears open, scent will overrule the other senses. In humans, sight is the primary sense, then sound and finally scent. For dogs it's scent, then eyes and then sound.
Try to do all of this without sounds because if your dog is excited, sound will add excitement. Use the power of silence, patience, body language with eye contact and maybe a raised finger. He will know when he's done the right thing because he will know, good or bad, how you feel, When you feel 'Good boy!' it comes right out through your eyes, without a sound.They scan you all the time.
If you do use vocal commands, ( I make a 'tch' noise in my cheek or a whistle to get her attention and a 'Hey' if she misbehaves) keep them simple and keep your voice calm.
Never ever use the dog's name when you are correcting her, use it only to call her or to give affection

The best way to establish your leadership is to walk your dog on a lead.
Walking as a pack is primal and powerful and It starts indoors, before ever you pick up the lead.
Have in mind what you want throughout the walk, which is a calm relaxed pack leader and a calm following dog Keep that picture in your mind and the dog will get it.
At first you have to proceed step by tiny step. The first time is the hardest and takes longest but repetition will quickly create a pattern a structure that your dog can understand.

As always, check yourself. Breathe easily, relax, calm right down, breathe and get the lead. This often triggers excitement so you must stand or sit still, hold the lead casually, block the dog from jumping up at you by fending them off gently with a knee or a hand or a twist of your hips but do not back away. wait. Claim the floorspace around you, ignore the excitement, the behaviour that you don't want, and do not put the lead on until the dog is waiting calmly.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
With the lead on, wait until the dog is calm and waiting and you have a slack lead then move to the door.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
Make sure that your dog is waiting and that you are relaxed, then open the door.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
Dogs understand thresholds very well.
They understand their bedspace, the den (your house) the wider territory (your garden) and their wider territory and the member of a pack that crosses those thresholds first is leading the walk, so it must always be human first, dog second. This is a ritual of leadership that you should have every time you cross a threshold, whether it's a doorway, a kerb, the gateway to the next field, any threshold, on or off lead, your dog should wait for you to go first. This may save his life.
Step through the doorway, get your dog calm again, take your time closing the door, then move to the gate.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
All this takes time at first, but with no more than two or three repetitions, you will see a change in your dog's behaviour.
When you're ready
Before you move off, have the lead short but with no tension. Tension in you, especially in your arm holding the lead, will be transmitted to the dog and he will not be able to relax.
Never pull back on the lead. Pulling back will only cause the dog to pull more and to become desensitised to the lead.
When you are ready, move off without asking or telling the dog. expect him to follow you and he will.
Keep your head up and walk as if you rule the world.
Expect your dog to walk with you, keeping to your pace.
If he pulls hard or gets too focused on some distraction or other, stop walking and pull gently upwards to stop his forward motion.
If he's not pulling too hard but he is getting ahead of you to the end of the lead, give him a tug sideways, enough to get him off balance so that you break the focus on whatever he was pulling towards. Ideally, he should look at you after the correction with that sort of 'Whadidido?' expression that they have. Then you can bring him back into position, check yourself and then carry on.
Never go to him when he's on the lead. make him come back to you. Leaders never go to followers. Once you're satisfied that he is in a calm waiting state, carry on.
At first, to establish a pattern of behaviour, try to make these walks alone. Perhaps in the evening when the streets are quieter and there are fewer distractions.
Walk steadily at first, just travelling, migrating. Don't allow him to stop or sniff or anything else until you've covered some ground and your dog has settled to a steady walk. you make all the decisions and he follows.
Do at least ten minutes of this disciplined pack walk. Then when you are ready, give him a break to stop and sniff and relieve himself.
If you have safe open space available, give him some freedom, let him run, chase a ball, play at full tilt and get excited. Then when you're ready, get him back on the lead, let him calm down and then continue with the disciplined formal walk. When you get home, the same rule applies. Human first through the gate , and the door. once inside take the lead off as calmly as you put it on.
Give him an hour a day at least. He deserves that and regular excercise will allow him to get rid of the build up of energy that can make him unstable.

Here is something you could try, which is good fun and will help you establish that strong, steady, eye-contact that is so vital to your relationship.
Stand with your arms relaxed at your sides with a a tiny piece of food treat in each firmly closed hand.
When your dog tries to get at the source of the smell fend him off gently with your knee or by shrugging him off with your leg. Don't back away and don't pull the food away. Keep your hands down, your eyes on him and yourself calm and relaxed. Fend him off and don't acknowledge any excitement. Be patient Wait for him to realise that he's not going to get it with excitement. Be patient. Eventually he will give you eye contact. As soon as he does, give him the treat. Repeat this three or four times and you will begin to get the eye contact sooner and sooner. After a few more repetitions, you should be able to ask for the eye contact to last a little longer, and a little longer, and a little longer before you treat him. Soon he will ignore the hand holding the treat because he knows that he gets it only through eye contact.
The next step is to start moving your hands around. He will follow the movement trying to see where the treat will come from. Soon he will realise that he's not going to get the treat and will give you eye contact.
If it seems that he's not going to break his fixation on your hands, move them up towards your face and you will be able to 'catch his eye', Treat him instantly.
Keep repeating this for a few minutes and repeat the exercise again after an hour or so. Two or three attempts should have him ignoring the hands and the movements and steadily watching you. This is when you see your dog at his best and this is when you can connect.

Firstly let me thank you for taking the time to post such a detailed response and addressing my concerns, it is appreciated.

All your questions concern Troy's excitement.

Correct! His excitement is the main issue.

[quote]It's about getting your dog to see you as her pack leader.
Shouting doesn't work, it just adds excitement. Frustration and anger don't work. Dog's don't follow angry frustrated leaders. Patience works, repetition works. gentle firmness works. just keep doing it calmly, patiently, over and over. He will get it, and much sooner than you think.[quote]

I'm trying. In regards to the walks, I try to keep calm and don't become frustrated, get angry or anything like that. Sometimes he will walk calmly on a loose lead and once he tries to gallop ahead or he I feel tension in the chain I stop then gently correct him before walking again. Sometimes he just pulls again straight away as if he has no idea what I am trying to do or why we stopped but I just simply stop and correct again until he stops pull.

It seems what he does sometimes he walk loosely on the lead and then once he feels some tension in it, which is due to him trying to walk ahead, he then tries sprinting. Strange and unsure as to why. I think when his last owner walked him, he just simply let him pull.

What you're trying to achieve, always, is that calm waiting state. Waiting for you to make the next move. Following your lead.
People say 'He thinks he's human!' No he doesn't. He thinks you're a dog.
Your dog sees himself as a member of your pack.
In your pack, in any pack of dogs, dominance and submission, leader and follower, do not mean a master and slave relationship. It must be a partnership.
All these things, over and over again, are about dominance on your part and submission from your dog and that is what you must aim for. In this sense dominance is a good thing.
Dominance and submission mean different things in the dog world compared to the human.
Dogs are pack animals and in every pack there is a dominant dog to which the rest of the pack are submissive.
The dominant dog is not necessarily the biggest and is never aggressive. He (or she) simply has the most dominant state of mind. Being the pack leader is not the easiest job. He/she makes all the decisions and the other dogs follow his lead. If he gets up and moves, the others follow. If he stops, they stop. In a pack there is one leader and the rest are followers. That means that all dogs can become followers to their pack-leader human/s. and for them it's a much easier life. No decisions to be made, no need to be on guard, scouting for danger all the time, just relax and follow their leader. And that's you.
This is all about you, rather than about your dog. The dog will get the picture very quickly if you can become a calm, confident pack leader.

Thanks for the info, gives me some insight into a dogs mind and how and why they behave in certain ways.

My Staffie Rosie, my current teacher, deserves a mention here. We are her third owners and she came to us a year ago after she had been taken into the vets where my daughter works, to be destroyed because she had bitten her owner while fighting with his other dog over a ball.
She will absolutely do a full wall of death around our front room if I wind her up enough, but she will also do this.

http://fwd4.me/0vqu

and this.

http://fwd4.me/0vr4

Very nice, thanks for sharing. Troy doesn't seem to bother much with birds. He is always looking for cats but I don't think it is aggressively, he acts exactly the same towards them as he does when he see's other dogs.

There's a lot of detail here but not enough. The devil is in the detail and you have to learn that from your dog.
Excitement is easy to generate. Just get excited yourself and then watch your dog instantly mirror your behaviour. That's what they do. They are mirrors to us.
Calmness, steadiness, trust, and gentleness is what the best dogs have and they get it from their owners.
The tricky bit, the really tricky bit, is remaining calm, steady, trustful and gentle yourself, in all situations, so that your dog can mirror that behaviour. If your dog is misbehaving, check yourself
When your dog is calm, it means no excitement at all. His stance is not important. Standing, sitting, walking or lying down, a dog can be excited. He can also do all those things calmly, and for the dog himself (or herself), that's a much more comfortable state of mind to live in.

Okay, I understand this. But how would you handle the situations I have been through such as:

Sat in the vets, another dog is there stood nicely minding its own business, Troy is pulling towards the other dog wanting to say hi, moaning and whimpering very loudly. He can't greet every dog he see's so what should I do? If I don't put tension on the lead he just gets closer to the dog. If I just sit there calmly he is in such a high state of excitement it doesn't seem to matter, he just carries on and seems to get worse. Even when it appears to be uncomfortable and is hurting his throat, he doesn't stop. Sometimes stroking him can calm him down a little, but I believe this is affection and would not be the right time to do this as it is seen as rewarding his current state of mind which I don't want, so what am I supposed to do?

Another example would be yesterday. He saw a cat in front of him which bolted off. He started to pull and whimper loudly to the point people were looking out their windows to see what the noise was all about. I would correct him and stop walking, wait a few moments then try to walk again. He'd pull, so I would stop, correct, wait a moment and then set off again. He pull. Rinse and repeat. I did this for about 15 minutes to the point where he would immediately stop pulling but he kept trying to pull and gallop through the remainder of the walk which was about 30-40 minutes.

At first, this will take a lot of patience. Staffies have amazing willpower, that's one of the charming things about their characters, and it will take as long as it takes.

Hopefully not too long He appears to be learning, his is better early in the morning and late at night when they are less distractions.

It's hard work but the rewards are well worth it because you learn to 'read' your dog, to see the subtle differences between, say, curiosity (dogs are curious by nature) and the dangerous focus that is the beginning of aggression or prey drive.

Sure is hard work. How can I tell if something is pray drive or not when it comes to small animals and cats when they won't let him close enough to establish this?

Try to do all of this without sounds because if your dog is excited, sound will add excitement. Use the power of silence, patience, body language with eye contact and maybe a raised finger. He will know when he's done the right thing because he will know, good or bad, how you feel, When you feel 'Good boy!' it comes right out through your eyes, without a sound.They scan you all the time.
If you do use vocal commands, ( I make a 'tch' noise in my cheek or a whistle to get her attention and a 'Hey' if she misbehaves) keep them simple and keep your voice calm.
Never ever use the dog's name when you are correcting her, use it only to call her or to give affection

Yeah, I am trying not to use sound. Just through corrections of the lead when walking and stopping.

The best way to establish your leadership is to walk your dog on a lead.
Walking as a pack is primal and powerful and It starts indoors, before ever you pick up the lead.
Have in mind what you want throughout the walk, which is a calm relaxed pack leader and a calm following dog Keep that picture in your mind and the dog will get it.
At first you have to proceed step by tiny step. The first time is the hardest and takes longest but repetition will quickly create a pattern a structure that your dog can understand.

As always, check yourself. Breathe easily, relax, calm right down, breathe and get the lead. This often triggers excitement so you must stand or sit still, hold the lead casually, block the dog from jumping up at you by fending them off gently with a knee or a hand or a twist of your hips but do not back away. wait. Claim the floorspace around you, ignore the excitement, the behaviour that you don't want, and do not put the lead on until the dog is waiting calmly.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
With the lead on, wait until the dog is calm and waiting and you have a slack lead then move to the door.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
Make sure that your dog is waiting and that you are relaxed, then open the door.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
Dogs understand thresholds very well.

I am trying these things currently and will see how we progress.

the member of a pack that crosses those thresholds first is leading the walk, so it must always be human first, dog second. This is a ritual of leadership that you should have every time you cross a threshold, whether it's a doorway, a kerb, the gateway to the next field, any threshold, on or off lead, your dog should wait for you to go first. This may save his life.
Step through the doorway, get your dog calm again, take your time closing the door, then move to the gate.
The message is, be calm and I'll give you what you want.
All this takes time at first, but with no more than two or three repetitions, you will see a change in your dog's behaviour.

I am trying this. I make him wait and ensure I am first through the door when leaving and returning to the house. When leaving the porch it is more difficult as he becomes very excited at the though of seeing one of my neighbours 4 cats. Neither garden is fenced and there is usually one there.

When you're ready before you move off, have the lead short but with no tension. Tension in you, especially in your arm holding the lead, will be transmitted to the dog and he will not be able to relax.
Never pull back on the lead. Pulling back will only cause the dog to pull more and to become desensitised to the lead.

I do this, I walk without any tension my arms at the side etc. It's him that pulls. He gets very excited once we stop out of the porch. I'll keep at it.

When you are ready, move off without asking or telling the dog. expect him to follow you and he will.
Keep your head up and walk as if you rule the world.
Expect your dog to walk with you, keeping to your pace.
If he pulls hard or gets too focused on some distraction or other, stop walking and pull gently upwards to stop his forward motion.
If he's not pulling too hard but he is getting ahead of you to the end of the lead, give him a tug sideways, enough to get him off balance so that you break the focus on whatever he was pulling towards. Ideally, he should look at you after the correction with that sort of 'Whadidido?' expression that they have. Then you can bring him back into position, check yourself and then carry on.

I do stop and correct him, I'll try the side correction too. I have noticed him looking at me when I stop or correct him on the lead.

Never go to him when he's on the lead. make him come back to you. Leaders never go to followers. Once you're satisfied that he is in a calm waiting state, carry on.

Thanks for the tip. I sometimes stop him and walk towards him and have him by my side before walking again but I guess I should make him come to me at my side before continuing the walk.

If you have safe open space available, give him some freedom, let him run, chase a ball, play at full tilt and get excited. Then when you're ready, get him back on the lead, let him calm down and then continue with the disciplined formal walk. When you get home, the same rule applies. Human first through the gate , and the door. once inside take the lead off as calmly as you put it on.

I don't let him off the lead at present. I have ordered a long lead though. His recall is good in enclosed spaces like a garden, but I'm certain if he saw a cat or dog he would be gone.

Give him an hour a day at least. He deserves that and regular excercise will allow him to get rid of the build up of energy that can make him unstable.

He gets walked 4 times a day, albeit the 4th walk is short to let him go toilet before bed but he easily gets over 1hr a day.

Here is something you could try, which is good fun and will help you establish that strong, steady, eye-contact that is so vital to your relationship.
Stand with your arms relaxed at your sides with a a tiny piece of food treat in each firmly closed hand.
When your dog tries to get at the source of the smell fend him off gently with your knee or by shrugging him off with your leg. Don't back away and don't pull the food away. Keep your hands down, your eyes on him and yourself calm and relaxed. Fend him off and don't acknowledge any excitement. Be patient Wait for him to realise that he's not going to get it with excitement. Be patient. Eventually he will give you eye contact. As soon as he does, give him the treat. Repeat this three or four times and you will begin to get the eye contact sooner and sooner. After a few more repetitions, you should be able to ask for the eye contact to last a little longer, and a little longer, and a little longer before you treat him. Soon he will ignore the hand holding the treat because he knows that he gets it only through eye contact.
The next step is to start moving your hands around. He will follow the movement trying to see where the treat will come from. Soon he will realise that he's not going to get the treat and will give you eye contact.
If it seems that he's not going to break his fixation on your hands, move them up towards your face and you will be able to 'catch his eye', Treat him instantly.
Keep repeating this for a few minutes and repeat the exercise again after an hour or so. Two or three attempts should have him ignoring the hands and the movements and steadily watching you. This is when you see your dog at his best and this is when you can connect.

I already do this though clicker training. He knows if I say 'look' to look into my eyes.

Again, thanks a lot for your replies. I would appreciate your comments on how to handle the situations as above (seeing cats, dogs, being in the vet etc).

Right, well. Oclasticon, although I agree with some of what you say, I don't agree with all of it.

Firstly, a dog should never be trained on a slip lead. Never. A normal collar is best & in the UK it is a legal must.

Next, dogs do not think we are dogs. They know we are not dogs & so they will not see us as 'pack leader' at all! However, they must be taught to respect us and to work with us - that's the whole point of training; not to get an autonomon but to have a dog that is happy to do what is asked of it.

Walking through doors first & not allowing a dog to walk in front are outdated methods of training. They are not necessary. The only thing I will say about these is that with an excitable dog getting it to sit calmly before going through a door is a good idea, but not because it's a 'pack leader' thing! It's just so it won't bowl us over with excess enthusiasm.

Staying calm & 'in control' at all times with your dog is good & it helps to occasionally stop & get your dog to sit by your side for a couple of minutes so that you can calm down & stay patient with your dog.

Regarding the treat in each hand & 'fending off' the dog, I'm afraid an excitable dog will get even more excitable & could end up nipping your hand! It may well work if you do it right from a pup, but this is an adult rescue dog who has received no formal training before.

Again, with the dog pulling on the lead; a real puller won't be at all bothered if you just stop, he'll just lean into the collar & try to keep going or wait for you to start again! That's why I feel that the best method of teaching a dog to walk with you is the turn around & walk in the other direction method every time the dog pulls ahead. At least then he's having to use his concentration on following you.

P.S. Oclasticon, it would be great if you would kindly introduce yourself in the new members forum!

Firstly, a dog should never be trained on a slip lead. Never. A normal collar is best & in the UK it is a legal must.[/quote[

I use a lead and collar.

[quote[Walking through doors first & not allowing a dog to walk in front are outdated methods of training. They are not necessary. The only thing I will say about these is that with an excitable dog getting it to sit calmly before going through a door is a good idea, but not because it's a 'pack leader' thing! It's just so it won't bowl us over with excess enthusiasm.

My dog tries to bolt through the doors with excitement. I have been making him sit and wait and walking after me. Seems like it is good idea just to keep him calm if nothing else?

Regarding the treat in each hand & 'fending off' the dog, I'm afraid an excitable dog will get even more excitable & could end up nipping your hand! It may well work if you do it right from a pup, but this is an adult rescue dog who has received no formal training before.

I have trained the 'look' method and he knows to look at me on command now but once he is in a very excitable state, I don't think it really matters because he wont listen anyway LOL. It is good to try and divert his attention when needed though.

Again, with the dog pulling on the lead; a real puller won't be at all bothered if you just stop, he'll just lean into the collar & try to keep going or wait for you to start again! That's why I feel that the best method of teaching a dog to walk with you is the turn around & walk in the other direction method every time the dog pulls ahead. At least then he's having to use his concentration on following you.

I keep reading different things and it is becoming very confusing. I have been using the stop method for the past few days. It 'appears' to be having some effect, but none at all when he see's another cat / dog etc. Maybe it takes time? Is it suggested to revert BACK to the stop and turn method now? Is this confusing for the dog?

Thanks

With the stop method, an excitable dog will just stop as well & won't even think of turning back to you - he just won't care! However, if you suddenlt turn the other way & carry on walking until he catches up (and then turn back the way you were going) he has to take notice. If you do that often enough he will start to pay a bit more attention to you because he won't want to keep being pulled the other way!

The watch command is a very useful tool in training & will eventually overcome the excitability. But it does take time. The more you do it the more he will respond, even in difficult circumstances.

My point about the walking through doors first is that the dog doesn't see it as a pck leader thing. It's useful as a calming method for a dog that gets very excitable when he's going out, but that's all. Same with the dog not walking in front. If he's walking nicely, not pulling & taking notice when you want to go a different way then there's absolutely no harm in it.

Caryll wrote:With the stop method, an excitable dog will just stop as well & won't even think of turning back to you - he just won't care! However, if you suddenlt turn the other way & carry on walking until he catches up (and then turn back the way you were going) he has to take notice. If you do that often enough he will start to pay a bit more attention to you because he won't want to keep being pulled the other way!

The watch command is a very useful tool in training & will eventually overcome the excitability. But it does take time. The more you do it the more he will respond, even in difficult circumstances.

My point about the walking through doors first is that the dog doesn't see it as a pck leader thing. It's useful as a calming method for a dog that gets very excitable when he's going out, but that's all. Same with the dog not walking in front. If he's walking nicely, not pulling & taking notice when you want to go a different way then there's absolutely no harm in it.

He does stop pulling with the stop method and will wait. When I call him he does come to me too. So if that is the case, should I carry on as I have been doing?

The only time he won't as if he does see another animal, but turning around and walking the other way when he is in this state of mind makes no difference. He still turns around trying to pull in that direction etc.

I make him sit and wait before entering and leaving etc, as I read it elsewhere but as it calms him anyway, I guess there is no harm in it.

Thanks.

I like a lot of what you have posted Oclasticon and Caryll raises some valid points. Would be great to hear more about you so please introduce yourself.

Gee wrote:He does stop pulling with the stop method and will wait. When I call him he does come to me too. So if that is the case, should I carry on as I have been doing?

If that's what works for you, then do it by all means. The only reason I prefer the turn around method is that the dog will stick with you rather than having to be called back every time.

But use whatever works for you!

[quote="Caryll"]Right, well. Oclasticon, although I agree with some of what you say, I don't agree with all of it.

Firstly, a dog should never be trained on a slip lead. Never. A normal collar is best & in the UK it is a legal must.

Perhaps I've used the wrong tem for the lead. I use a soft rope lead that work in much the same way as a choke chain, but is gentler and lighter. It can also be adjusted for training.
A collar with a nametag by all means, Rosie has a pink glitter collar which I'm forced to use because my daughter, the one with the sense of humour, ensured was the only one in the house, but the rope lead is safer. A panicked dog (and they can all get scared) will back out of an ordinary collar, it can't back out of this.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36417148@N00/6813126006/in/photostream

I always wondered with those leads you posted a picture of. Its the type I see Cesar Milan using on all the dogs he trains.

How does it work then exactly? Just encourages the dog not to pull because if he does he gets chocked?

By the way, here is a video of what I am currently dealing with. This is me sitting in the garden with Troy after a long walk. I am relaxed, holding the lead loose. Troy has seen a neighbours cat, here is his reaction. This wouldn't stop by the way, just get worse and louder.

What do you suggest I do in a situation like this? This is exactly how he behaves in the vet around other dogs. But sometimes when I let him greet another dog on the street he is fine.

Click here for video

We use a head halti for Billy to stop him from pulling I have only used it a few times but it has stopped him from pulling

I want him to be obedient and do as he is told LOL

Don't really want to have to use any devices that make him not pull but will if he doesn't sort himself out!

Changed the thread title because it is not just walking on a lead that is the issue.

Ya know, I don't think Cesar Milan could come and sort Troy out in a day like he does on TV, no way.

So far Troy walks kinda loose on the lead early in the morning and late and night, probably because it is peaceful with less distractions.

He will pull once excited which is almost all of the time if he see's something of interest..a cat...a dog...a bag on the floor he thinks is something alive or sometimes nothing. He thinks he sees things sometimes and he has not.

The stop and turn method doesn't even seem to work with him as he will then just look around for things and pull in the direction I turn him. He is always on high alert..that is his problem. Walking tall, always scanning.

Before the walk I have just came back from, he pulled when leaving the porch so we started again...he pulled again...so we started again. Did this literally about 20 times and he still pulled. My neighbour let her cats out so then I had to abort mission.

I always hold the leash loose, I don't stress etc and always check myself. I know a lot of the problems are down to the handler but he came to me like this and it is in no way as easy as 'be calm and assertive' no way. Once he is in an alert state you can't snap him out of him. No tugging, no turning, no 'shh', no 'no', no nothing.

In side the house and when occupied playing ball outside he is fine, walking on a leash and when he see's other dogs etc, total nightmare.

I really don't see a day he will leave the porch without pulling, see a dog without whining or walk nicely on a lead.