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Post by Chillow Tue Jan 05 2021, 09:08

Hello!
I was hoping you could perhaps help me with my little staffy Willow. We adopted her on the basis she was a pure Staffordshire bull terrier, we now realise she most likely isn’t! We really don’t mind what she is at all, however I understand we won’t be able to travel with her to France / other European countries if she has American / Pitt bull in her... totally devastated as we were going to move to France this winter, something we’d planned for years. Any advice would be hugely appreciated!! I have attached a picture of Willow, she’s approx 14kg and turns 1 year old in February. Thank you so much!!! Help please! 606cdb10
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Post by gillybrent Tue Jan 05 2021, 20:52

Hi & welcome.

Firstly, she's absolutely beautiful!

Unfortunately, if she has no papers it's unlikely you'll be able to take her to France.

But Nifty will be able to tell you more about that.

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Post by Jenc Tue Jan 05 2021, 20:54

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Post by Jenc Tue Jan 05 2021, 20:59

Hi from me & Katy Smile  Willow is a beautiful girl Love Struck
Sorry that you can't take her there Sad
Here's some info:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjr39SA14XuAhW3SEEAHUdWB2MQFjABegQIBhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fse.ambafrance.org%2FImportation-of-animals-into-France%23%3A~%3Atext%3DDangerous%2520dogs%2520in%2520France%2520are%2Cintroduce%2520these%2520dogs%2520into%2520France.&usg=AOvVaw2fsNnF5o9EI-Tsbj4gL3Tx


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Post by Nifty staffy Tue Jan 05 2021, 21:18

Hello and welcome
Willow is absolutely gorgeous Love Struck

I don’t have much time tonight to reply but all might not be lost.
I’ll get back to you soon Smile


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Post by Chillow Tue Jan 05 2021, 22:19

Thank you so much everyone!! Really appreciate all your help. She’s really not big at all compared to American staffs so I struggle to see that she has that in her...
thanks again Smile
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Post by Nifty staffy Wed Jan 06 2021, 05:26

Ok, please may I ask you for a bit of background information.
It’s just to understand the situation better and in no way to comment on choices that have been made.
The “you should have” and “I told you so’s” are not applicable here so I hope the discussion won’t turn in that direction. Rolling Eyes

When you say you adopted her, is this from a rescue center or a response to some kind of advertisement ?
How old was she ?
Do you have any information on supposed parents or even get to meet either ?
I presume she has no “family tree” papers but does she already have a passport ? If so, what breed is stated on there ?
If you only have vaccination papers and chip registration or other, is her breed stated ?
You say she’s 14kgs at 11 months old (which is in line with a staffy), how tall is she ?

Most importantly, what makes you think she could be part AmStaff/APBT ?

Thank you Smile


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Post by Chillow Wed Jan 06 2021, 10:05

Hello again! Firstly, a HUGE thank you for your time and for your incredible help - I appreciate it so much!!

Full transparency, we found her on Gumtree she was up for adoption as her family could no longer keep her.
They were such lovely people who suffered a horrible turn of events and were truly heartbroken to give her up.
She was 7 months old when we got her in September 2020, she turns 1 next month.

They didn't have any paperwork for her, no passport, she wasn't vaccinated due to lockdown but we managed to find her microchip!
We registered Willow with us immediately and I have just reached out to SmartTrace to see if they have any further info, I can't find anything when I type her number in...
We also got her fully up to date on vaccinations with our local vet, who now takes care of her. I actually emailed our vet yesterday to get their take on this too, they seemed to think we'd be fine taking her over to France... Perhaps they are not fully informed?

I've also reached out to the lovely lady who we adopted her from to see if she has any further info on her end... though I doubt she does!

Measurements wise, she's 40cm tall (from floor to back bone) and I also have the below:

Length from breastbone to tail: 59cm
Neck: 14cm
Chest (around the deepest part of the rib cage): 57cm
Waist (around the narrowest part of the body in front of the back legs): 45cm
Backbone: 44cm

Nothing really makes me think she has any AmStaff/APBT in her at all...!! I did a Google Image search to try and identify her, didn't really get anywhere with that Sad

We really do not care one bit if / that she is a cross, she is truly the sweetest and most gentle little dog... A real baby actually!
We are just trying to understand whether we will be able to take her to France and Spain given her "look". By process of elimination I was looking at breeds that are forbidden in these countries trying to work out whether she has any of those in her!

Sorry for the ramble... I hope this helps?

Thank you!!!  star star star
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Post by Chillow Wed Jan 06 2021, 11:27

Curveball ! I just heard back from the SmartTrace who confirmed she is registered as a Staffordshire Bull Terrier on her microchip Smile

Does that help at all?
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Post by Nifty staffy Wed Jan 06 2021, 11:43

Yes yes !
Thank you,so much for your open honesty and for all of the information.

You have confirmed my initial thoughts.
I believe that you won’t have trouble travelling this side of the Channel with her. However I have some information and thoughts I’d like to share but my lunch break is too short. I promise to share tonight Big Grin


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Post by Chillow Wed Jan 06 2021, 11:51

Woohoo!!! We are keeping our fingers and paws crossed Smile
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Post by Jenc Wed Jan 06 2021, 12:37

That's great news, looks like you shouldn't have any problem then Big Grin


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Post by Nifty staffy Wed Jan 06 2021, 22:33

So here I am. Big Grin

So what is a pure bred staffy ? One which both parents are pure bred staffies and so on. KC papers have the advantage that there is not supposed to be any doubt as to the origins of the dog.
However, KC papers cost money and time (paperwork) to establish. It also requires all testing (hereditary disorders) to be in order of breeding stock but that again requires time and money.
This is probably why back street breeders and a litter from family pet don’t bother with KC papers but sell the pup cheaper.
A KC registered pup will always be pure bred but a pure bred doesn’t always have to have papers. (It’s just better to have them as there is no doubt).

So why am I boring you with definitions of pure bred ? Because there is a particularly in the french BSL.
It is stated “le chien de race Staffordshire bull terrier ne fait pas partie des chiens pouvant être dangereux”
If you read “le chien de race, Staffordshire bull terrier ...” this would be pedigree or KC reg SBT dogs.
If you read “le chien, de race SBT ...”, this would be a dog of SBT breed without specifying their registration.
Therefore all SBT are not concerned by the BSL but it’s easier to prove if you had papers.

Back to Willow, make sure that all papers in her name state she’s SBT. That’s already the case with the chip, make sure her passport says the same.
When we crossed the Channel with the girls, they checked their passports and their chip, but not their KC papers.
250 dogs had already crossed the Channel at 10am and not all are KC reg but alot of “heinz 57” or whatever you call them today.
If your vet is willing to give you an official letter stating Willow is SBT, that’s always an extra.
Similarly, I presume you’ll make at least one trip to France before settling down. Make the most of introducing Willow to future vet to get letter too.

SBT are popular and 3 builds are recognized. Your Willow is like my Opium, terrier type who are taller and lighter to be more athletic. Nifty is balanced but closer to the heavier bully build.
AmStaffs here are much bigger than staffies, especially when you put them side by side. Even at 40cms, Willow will be seen as a SBT.

To be continued ...


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Post by Chillow Thu Jan 07 2021, 10:33

Good morning!

Wow - thank you so much for all this incredible information!!! It is all so helpful to know this.

I am half French so completely understand the nuances you outlined... I do think (and hope!) given the lack of punctuation in the sentence, the meaning is intended as "le chien, de race SBT ...”, being a dog of SBT breed without specifying their registration. All open to interpretation and discussion of course Wink

You are right - Willow must be like your Opium in terms of build! She definitely has more of an athletic terrier look to her, she's rather skinny!

In terms of action plan for Willow - we will get a pet passport for her with SBT breed stated on there. We'll also reach out to our vet regarding a letter and additional paperwork we could bring with us stating she is SBT.
It's a great starting point having her registered as a SBT on her chip - right? I was so relieved when I got the email confirmation Smile
All in all, would you say it is looking rather positive that we'll be able to take across the channel?

A huge thank you again from Willow and me Love Struck Love Struck
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Post by gillybrent Sat Jan 09 2021, 18:42

Good luck! Hopefully you will have the outcome you want!

Please, do let us know what happens.

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Post by Chillow Sat Jan 09 2021, 19:40

Thank you!!
We will let you know once we make it across the channel - most probably this summer (fingers and paws crossed!!)

Smile
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Post by Jenc Sat Jan 09 2021, 21:43

Yes please keep us updated on your move & new home in France Smile


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Post by Nifty staffy Sun Jan 10 2021, 10:15

If it’s not already done, please get her rabies vaccination done as soon as possible. I know there is a delay between vaccination and authorization to travel. Make sure clear film (cellotape) it put over rabies vaccination stamp in her passport.
I don’t think she is in the category needing a titer test, I must check


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Post by Chillow Sun Jan 10 2021, 10:16

Great advice, thank you so much! I’ll be calling the vet first thing tomorrow Smile
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Post by Nifty staffy Sun Jan 10 2021, 13:55

You just need to be aware of this
https://www.centrale-canine.fr/staffybulls-legion/articles/confusion-et-risques-lies-au-sbt-non-lof

I don’t think Willow conforms to the whole description of a class 1 dangerous dog, but that’s why the breed papers save you worry.


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Post by Nifty staffy Sun Jan 10 2021, 21:05

General travel information from UK to France
https://www.pettravel.com/immigration/France.cfm

Brexit influence
https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Brexit/Brexit-Rules-clarified-for-visiting-France-from-UK-with-pet


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Post by Chillow Sun Jan 10 2021, 21:09

Incredibly helpful, thank you!!!
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