Haltis and Canny Collars question

Are these type of collars a long term thing or are they a training tool , i dont want or like the face covering aspect of either type , so are they used as a training tool or are they a permanent thing , ie if i start using a regular collar and leash after a number of months will my dog go back to pulling .

Hiya your dog may go back to pulling but haltis can be used over a long period of time . Have u thought of a non pull harness?

One of our users recently purchased this harness http://www.amazon.co.uk/UNHO%C2%AE-Padded-Harness-Adjustable-Large/dp/B00WG17CVQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446825978&sr=8-1&keywords=unho+dog+harness. And few other mwmbers have followed im thinking of purchasing one myself

Look like a good buy , my ideal would be for MissyMoo to walk beside me leash free on command , well we do live in hope . best get the measuring tape out , although she is growing at an alarming rate

I know there are a few fans of haltis on here, but before you go down that route can I chip in with why I dislike them?

Firstly, in my opinion the reason they work is that they are uncomfortable. My background is in horse training, where people use harsher and harsher bits to control their horses, and if those bits work it is because the horse is seeking to avoid pain. Haltis may not be so severe but the principle is the same.

The second reason I dislike them is because of the damage they can do to the neck. I have a friend who is a holistic vet, properly trained and all that but now working mainly with osteopathy and related methods to treat horses and dogs. She sees a lot of problems due to collars on pulling dogs and worse ones from haltis. The damage may not be immediately apparent but it can cause a lot of problems with time. I personally wouldn't risk that unless there is really no other way.

Tezzers has really good experience with that harness, and I use the Mekuti. But I also believe that any harness is only ever an aid to training. What heelwork training are you doing at the moment, Brian?

Oops sorry Lizp I thought I replied to your above post .
At the moment I'm using a harness and Flexi lead which has been fine up to now as she is small so easy to hold back if she pulls , but I want to get her walking beside me without pulling so I know I'll need to start heel work soon , but I don't want to do it with a Halti or Canny Collar if she won't stay at my side if I remove the leash , so theses could actually slow my progress in the long run .
A small issue I'm having is she gets very playful and hyper when the treats come out for training , on the one hand she is a quick learner , on the other she won't do anything unless there is a treat coming

It sounds more like you need structure with your treats, Brian. You can use them to teach her patience by only giving a treat when she is still, and when a command is solid yt asking her to wait for a few seconds before she gets her treat. Also, only ever give a treat for something you have asked for, not for random sweetness or trying miscellaneous behaviours. It might even be worth looking at clicker, as that can give you more discipline - a treat only ever comes after a click - and also because with time you can start to reduce the treats as the click itself is becomes your 'yes'.

But... as you've got a treat focussed dog, teaching heel should be not overly hard. Work off lead in an enclosed space, the garden is ideal. Call Missy to you and give her a treat. Walk of briskly and ask 'heel', while holding a treat in your hand  above where you want her nose to be, so in front of your left hip. Don't bend down at all because she's little, you want to keep your sense of purpose. As she first walks with you, give her her treat but don't let her smash and grab, keep her with you. Patting your leg can help, she can learn that as a 'heel' request, as can keeping another treat in your hand.

Keep your bursts of heel short and ask her other things in between, and each time you step off remember to ask her to heel and reward when she does.

Walk all over the place, changing direction smartly so she needs to keep with you. When something is easy, don't treat. When it is hard, recognise it with praise and a treat. She should soon be with you wherever.

Then, take that out with you. Walk on the lead as if it wasn't there. The lead is your safety belt, not your main means of asking for heel. If she gets ahead, change direction or walk backwards, asking her for heel. When she comes next to your leg, reward. For me, the most important thing is not to let the pull set in at all. Keep aware of each moment that she goes ahead, especially if she gets to the end of the lead, and then ask for something different.

The flexi lead won't do you any favours at all, I'd ditch it. They encourage the idea that the dog can go where she wants and they reduce the amount of control you have. There was also a really hairy incident a week or so ago when Millie was saying hello to a dog that was on a flexi lead and it got caught round her neck. The owner kept hold, the other dog panicked and pulled, and Millie was in the middle with this thin cord tightening round her neck. I had to rip the thing from the owner's hands to loosen it! Get yourself a long training line, you can get them easily on ebay. They will give you the option of a longer line if you want to give her some freedom but without the negatives of the flexi lead.

Here's my situation and (paranoid ) issues , I live right beside a huge park which is great , it's not overly busy but on a 30 to 40 minute walk you will usually meet approx ten people of all genders and ages walking dogs of all breeds , some on and some off leash .
At only four months I don't let MissyMoo of her leash ever as I'm concerned about a few things , will she run off , will her hyper exuberance be taken wrong by other dog owners when she jumps all over their dogs playing , will owners themselves or random walkers get fearful of the "killer " dog running at them .
So for now I've been using a long flat inch wide canvas strap type Flexi so she has some freedom but I can also reign her in when others approach , which has never been a problem but again I have full control , where it can be awkward for me is when I get to say local shops and want her to stay close , although I shorten the leash she still thinks she should have 30 feet to play , this is where I want to teach her to heel , but I'm thinking I'll also have to change to a short leash and regular collar in these situations .
Long posti know but I'm determined to get it right for her as she really is such a great dog .

I'm a huge believer in letting puppies off lead from the word go. I don't think they have the confidence to stray far and, if you think about it, it is much harder to teach an older dog who is used to being restrained not to stray than it is a puppy. It's a great age to teach recall off lead as well.

I get what you're saying about other people being annoyed by an excited puppy running up to them but it's very rare that people get upset with puppies. Again, this is the time to train her not to do it. Work hard on recall so that she knows that 'Missy, come!' means there's a really tasty treat on offer, and encourage her back to you when you see someone who you'd rather she doesn't approach. It won't always work but it should improve as you work on it and she gets to know that you are a better source of yumminess that that boring jogger.

The pain for me is that puppies are cute and so many people have cuddled and coo-ed over Millie that she now believes everyone on the planet was put there to admire her. Good luck with trying to get people not to reward Missy for being cute!

Be wary of separating things in your mind that she will find difficult to differentiate, and expecting her to see the difference as well. If you want her to behave in one way in one place but differently in another, you need to make it clear to her. I think the idea of a shorter (i.e. normal, not very short) lead for when you want her to heel is good, but stick to it. If you want heel with the shorter lead, then be very consistent. Each and every time she hits the end of it, change direction and call her to you, rewarding her when she comes to the heel position.

Puppy training isn't easy, so don't panic. You're doing really well, you'll be fine!

So today I let MissyMoo of her lead for a while and with little distraction's she was well behaved , but as soon as other dogs came in eyeshot she was gone , even though she knew I had high value treats she had other ideas and just would not come when called which she usually is very good at , with dogs it's fine I can just keep working on it , but with kids and some adults it really concerne's me .

Before she bailed
https://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b12/beecee1/MissyMoo/20151201_161642_zpsurh7lxl0.mp4

How about a long line, attached to a harness when you reach the park? Safer than a flexi, allows her freedom and you to regain control of needed, plus teach recall safely. I have a 50ft one. Don't always allow her to run to the end of it, but you can then manage how far away she is, giving more space as required.

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Long-Dog-Horse-Training-Tracking-Lunge-Lead-5ft-to-200ft-Any-Size-ALL-Colours-/290926016445?nav=SEARCH

I have used a halti, admittedly before the research was available regarding the potential damage that it can do to your dogs neck. I used it because Bug was fear aggressive and would lunge/snap at people/cars/dogs/cyclists, so coupled with a muzzle it was the safest way to manage her while we were socialising.

For now, I would attempt to train through the methods above, rather than using a halti. Get rid of the flexi and start from scratch, I use a Trixie harness as they're sturdy, with a double ended lead attached to her collar and harness for control.

I'm afraid I'm going to be a complete and utter geek now. I review student videos for the horse training association I'm with, so stick a video in front of my eyes and I go into critique mode. Sorry...

There area couple of things that struck me with your clip, Brian. The first is that you need much more consistency in your commands. You use all sorts of words when you want Missy to come to you - she won't know what you mean I'm afraid. You want one clear word. I use 'dog's name, come!'. The name gets the dog's attention and says which one I want, and 'come!' in a clear and up beat voice gives the instruction. The voice needs to convey that you want her to come to you for something nice, so say it with the same tone as you would saying 'Missy, come here and get an amazing present'.

That's the recall you need to practise on a long line and off lead in the right set up. Make it as easy as possible for her to get it right, so pick times and places that are quiet to do your off lead work, and if there are others around pop her on her line.

If you call her and she ignores you, turn and run in the opposite direction while calling her nicely. Give her more reason to want to come to you - that warning cross voice at around the 0:50 mark is one that can make her worry and not come. It looks like she's eating something, in which case I'd either ignore it (it's too late when she's got it in her mouth) or if you think she will drop it, ask for 'leave it'. But try not to sound cross at any point when you're calling her unless it really is a danger situation and you need to yell 'NO!' (near a road for example). And as soon as you've got her attention, back to happy again.

Another thing that struck me is that it's all very fast, high energy stuff, and it looks like it's in part driven by her. Slow things down. Using your intent, changes of direction, and by relaxing yourself, and only using your line as a backup, slow your walk, yours and hers. It's not a race to get to the next smell, it's a walk under your leadership. Any time you feel that you have speeded up to keep up with her, slow down.

The third point comes on the back of the second. Quite often, it feels that she is deciding where the walk is going and you are following her. I know that's probably not how you see it but it's how she may. Keep changing direction. If you have regular walks, try and vary the route. Turn round and walk back for a bit, then turn back again. Give her another reason to focus on you more than on what's going on over there.

Remember that walks are learning experiences. What you want her to learn is that you are taking her for a walk, and that you are the leader. No, it won't stop her running over to meet other dogs from day 1, but it will with time cement your relationship into one where she will learn to listen to you in a variety of situations, getting stronger and stronger all the time.

So today i dumped the Flexi and went with her long lead approx 60 ft and did what you said , i kept changing direction every 3-4 minutes doubling back on myself all the time , and even first time trying this she appeared to be more in tune with me and not just following the normal routes , ive tried to keep the COME COMMAND to just the one word as i see i was confusing her , i called her multiple times and gave her treats each time , ill build on this each day .
I had been up to now using random words when i just wanted her to keep close and stay near as opposed to using a firm " COME " which was more a demand than a request , as i was going to use this in urgent or dangerous situations . I see this wasnt working( the random calling )  when out and about , but the firm COME was fine indoors without distraction , but no so good outside in the real world , although i know its early days .
This clip is before i took her out today , she loves the mop and you can see she does respond well to COME , i just need to refine things .

https://vid16.photobucket.com/albums/b12/beecee1/MissyMoo/20151202_143225_zpsms6saud5.mp4

Fantastic recall, and great praising. I'd just tone down your call a bit, make it more of a happy request rather than a barked command. Pretend your an Aussie, get it going up at the end more.

As you say, it's all refining.

You don't need the mop, that floor's amazingly clean!

Thanks Liz
Heres my plan , continue in the park and forest areas with the long lead repeating what i did today , ill do a few sessions in the house of proper heel training on regular lead and collar and when she starts to get the idea ill take to the paths outside the house on a second walk later in the day , i think as much clear distinctions between the two walks will help in the beginning .
The mop is funny to watch especially when she tries to bring it upstairs , but it wont be funny after a while so i need to put a stop it soon , typical wont play with all the expensive toys , more iterested in bottle tops and empty boxes

Bug is another that won't come if you recall her firmly - we have to act like complete idiots, crouching down, using a silly sing song voice and making her recall the funnest/most exciting thing in the world! If we simply shout "come" in a firm tone she goes to bits and does the opposite! But she is quite a nervous girl.

They really are wonderful dogs with the most peculiar personalities , the joy and fun MissyMoo has brought in to our house is unreal , my wife Debbie thinks we are raising her better than we did our children

https://youtu.be/dlOkq9ZzjMg

This was today on her long leash , this is an example of her coming when i call and my switching directions often to keep her looking for me and not have her dictating the walk , Jay i have found this a good tip , Liz another vid for you to see how im doing ??

She's less wired looking, isn't she, and her response when you change direction and call her is fab. I'd still say she's leading you most of the time, out there ahead of you, so I personally would mix this with working on heel during the same walk so that you have more of a sense of you being in change, which is important if you do need it.

But good progress!

Thanks Liz , I've started heel work in the house along with LOOK AT ME , she is doing really well , I can get her go follow me around the house keeping pretty close all the time , it's transferring  to the paths thats next , should I be strict or give her some space , keeping the playing and sniffing to the long leash walks ? .I'll build some heel work in on those too .

Thanks Liz , I've started heel work in the house along with LOOK AT ME , she is doing really well , I can get her go follow me around the house keeping pretty close all the time , it's transferring  to the paths that next , should I be strict or give her some ed pace , keeping the playing and sniffing to the long leash walks ? .I'll build some heel work in on those too .

What do you think, Brian?

It makes no sense to allow her to do what I'm training her not to do , but that pretty much ends regular walks In my estate , well anything more than 50 feet , which is fine by me but getting the others who walk her to be consistent is proving difficult , so I think I need to train them first

So how about looking for a mix? Yes, you need to be consistent but that doesn't mean it has to be all or nothing. Consistency can, for example, be that you walk for 5 minutes on a shorter line, then when that's going well she has some freedom time, then work on recall, heel, etc., then a bit more free time...

Don't forget that a reward for what you want can be anything, and what Missy wants to do is the best reward you've got. In other words, you can ask her for heel and, when she does that nicely for a minute or so, release her for some bumbling time. Be particularly aware of when she does something that's hard for her, so not pulling towards another dog, or doing a particularly good heel or something, so that you catch her thought and praise that.

I keep second guessing myself as i dont want to confuse or annoy her and make it harder than it needs to be , ive asked the others to do more actual training rather than just seeing how well she is doing on their walks , as i think this will help all concerned , ive noticed myself getting all serious when training her and not making it enough fun , so ill be working on that too