Need a little help ... Sudden growling while training

Hi guys,
I rescued a nice 18month STB X from an undeserving home, the dog has been with me for about 10 days.
He was seriously under weight and untrained, so as a "responsible" person i set to traing him so he fitted in with the family more, he learnt well and he learnt quickly.

he learnt sit, down, paw, heel, stop and stay very very quickly ..... SO to my problem now, as of yeasterday he has no began growling and curling lip at me when asking him to perform said command that he was once comfortable doing, he used to wag his tail when he got the command right and i rewarded and praised him for doing so.

The growls and lip curl do not come across as the typical aggressive behaviour i have seen as when told no firmly he them cowers, all this has come about in the last day.

Am i working him to hard, is he becoming bored with the training or am i doing something that displeases him, any suggestion would be of a great help as i dont want to fail this dog that was in so poor condition when i got him.

Has he had a vet check? Could the commands be causing any pain/discomfort physically? He may well be testing the boundaries, are you using all positive reinforcement to train him?

It sounds like there might be a few things going on here. The first thing to remember is that your dog has learned life over the last 18 months, and his current expectations and beliefs will be mainly based on that. If he cowers when he's told no, it's more than likely that he's been handled let's say 'firmly', and as far as he knows that's how all humans are. Your main job at the moment is to show him that's not the case.

The other thing that's important to remember is that the behaviour you've seen in 10 days might not be how he really is. Not only may he be used to not being able to express himself in his old home, he'll not have wanted to rock the boat with you to start off with. Many animals lie low when in new situations until they've assessed it. He's probably sensing you're not the same and is testing to see how you really are, and where his behaviour boundaries are.

I'm 100% with you that it's important to start training from the word go, but I think you need to be very careful where your focus is and how you train.

I wouldn't worry too much about things like down and paw for the moment. Even sit can wait. The basics for me are 'leave it', recall and walking nicely on the lead. That doesn't have to be to heel if you don't want to, just trotting with you in a relaxed manner.

Everything needs to be request based rather than command. Like us, dogs respond better to 'will you please' rather than 'do this, do that'. Make sure everything has a positive reward at the end of it, probably a treat but also a kind word, a cuddle, a bit of play all work, and set things up so it's easy and nice for him to do these things for you.

'Leave it' - i.e. let go of whatever is in your mouth- is best taught by waiting till he has something, then sticking something higher value under his nose and asking 'leave it'. So maybe give him a ball and have a treat in your hand, ready to ask 'leave it' when he picks up the ball. Repeat and repeat until he understands that dropping the thing will get him the treat, then you can stop showing him the treat first. Always reward.

No is an important word, but if possible find another way of stopping behaviour. If, for example, he picks up something he shouldn't have, ask for leave it, praise and rewards when he drops it, then give him something he can have instead. I tend to keep 'no' for big stuff, when our lab starts to take off like a greyhound for example! Especially in a case like this when 'no' produces a fear response, try and avoid it unless you really need that big response now!

Remember above all that this lad will be your friend and want to work with you if you create that environement for him. Keep everything positive, reward based and happy. Then you'll all enjoy it.

Thank you for the replies. He is a fantastic little dog and it's such a suprise how he could have been treated the way he was.

The main reason i worked his training straight away was because i have children and i needed the dog to be under my control and do as i say, i only branched out into down and paw because he learnt so quickly and i wanted to keep him learning and interested as this is a great point in a dog life for them to learn and there is nothing worse than a bored Staffy lol.

Ill take it easier on him with the training then i think is the message im getting from the replies.

I havent worked on recall yet, i dare not let him off the lead even though he stick to me like glue, do you have and tips on how to make him want to stay when the lead comes off ?

Rachel33 wrote:Has he had a vet check? Could the commands be causing any pain/discomfort physically? He may well be testing the boundaries, are you using all positive reinforcement to train him?

Yes i had him check out by a Vet, they said he was under weight and suffering from malnutrition, i have since moved him from the cheap food they had him on "Wag Puppy" and put him on "Wainwright's" from pets for home, also he is having a high carb meal (mince and rice ... which he LOVES) once a week till he puts on a bit of weight.

All training is positively reinforced with treats, love and hugs. The latter ones he prefers to treats, im not a believer in heavy handed training where the dog is struck, held at or punished for not getting it correct or anything like that im extremely patient.

This is why the sudden lip curling was getting me thinking maybe im pushing him and its a "oh god this again" communication.

AW wrote:

Rachel33 wrote:
This is why the sudden lip curling was getting me thinking maybe im pushing him and its a "oh god this again" communication.

It could be that. It could also be something in your body language that's upsetting him, that maybe reminds him of less good times or something - it's worth changing the way you stand, what you do with your hands, that sort of thing, to see if it makes any difference. Without being there and seeing it's really hard to say but you do sound like you've got the right approach and a sensible head on you, so trust your instinct. The alternative is to get a behaviourist to come and have a look - they're trained and experienced in seeing exactly what's going on.

What I've done with all my dog bar Bobbert who was fear aggressive and Nola who buggered off before you've had a chance to drop you hat, is some basic recall work even just within the house so that they know 'Name come!'. I then find a place where the risks are minimal, where the dog can't run off and you're unlikely to meet others, and go for it. Especially when you've got one that's uncertain and clingy, they are less likely to try and take off when they don't know where they in those early days than they are later. You do, though, need to read your dog and assess your surroundings carefully, and don't do it just because someone you don't know on a forum told you to!

If you don't feel happy letting him off, then get a long training line (not an extendable one), and ask him to sit-stay while you take a couple of steps back, still facing him to keep him in place, then call him to you. Make it really easy to start off with, then get further away as he works it out. Every single recall gets a treat. I'll confess I still give mine treats even though they all have recall like bullets - even Nola the naughty.

Could I just say how much I'm behind you on this? I think you've done a brave but very, very good thing and I truly wish you all the best. Rachel and I both have a fair bit of experience with rescues and training, so please do ask if you want. We also both love the books by a US trainer called Patricial McConnell. She's one of those who makes complete sense to me, and always looks at why instead of just what as other do. You can pick her books up 2nd hand very cheaply on Amazon. The Other End of the Leash is probably my favourite so far, but they're all great!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_12?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=patricia%20mcconnell&sprefix=patricia+mcc%2Caps%2C264

I'd not spotted her one called 'Love has no age limits' on what to do with rescue dogs! Have you read that Rach?

Thank you so much guys, glad i found this forum now. Alot of great advice and material to read though.

Once again thank you for the help.

Brilliant advice from Liz, and sounds like you're taking all the right steps health wise, poor boy, sounds like he's had a really rough time of it. It could be that he's getting a bit overloaded with the training - I usually go by a 10 minute rule for training sessions a few times per day, but if he's struggling maybe lessen it. I had an English bull terrier in my kennels that loved agility - she was a very aggressive dog when she came to the kennels and we were working on a nothing in life is free basis - she would do agility for 5 minutes each morning to "earn" her breakfast and would bomb it around happily and then come and sit for breakfast. One day, one of the other kennel girls did the routine and it went on slightly longer than usual; the EBT got frustrated and ran over bit the handler! She really enjoyed the activity, but in very short bursts. She was a very special dog, unlike any other, sometimes when they get frustrated they react in the only way they know how.

Totally recommend Patricia McConnell! Ooh no Liz, not sure why I haven't?! Getting on amazon now

I can't offer any better advice than already given but do give us updates so we know how you get on

-Ian- wrote:I can't offer any better advice than already given but do give us updates so we know how you get on

Yeah the advice was excellent, has given me alot of food for though. Top quality people here.

Will keep you informed maybe even pictures when he is ready for them, the before pictures a cringe-worthy that no one wants to see, the afters will be the dog he should have been ......... Though i can see it in him already he is going to be a beautiful looking dog now he has come to a home that will give him what he needs.

So pleased that you've taken him in.. At last he will get the love that they all deserve

Maybe have someone video you while you're training and play it back to see if you can spot when the body language starts to change? I'm doing that with mine to see why he's annoying other dogs when trying to play with them.

For the recall it is best to start with a long lead and then move to a fenced in area.

JStaff wrote:For the recall it is best to start with a long lead and then move to a fenced in area.  

Ill try that, i have been taking him to an enclosed football pitch just in case and where i know and can see he is safe as well as having alot of burn off room but he gets distracted smelling stuff, eventually comes but it repeats it in a circle, i let go, he comes, he goes , gets distracted and so on.

@ the recording comment .... That's actually a great idea, maybe after the 15-20mins he has just had enough and im not spotting the signs. All my other staffys i have had from pups so its not like with a rescue where mistakes out of my control have been made and i havent learnt to spot the signs with him yet as he is so new into our circle. ill try this for sure. thank you.

Again i guess it comes down to me trying to hard with this dog in particular and him getting fed up or bored, im a firm believer on making my staffy a staple dog, one people are not afraid to look at and approach. A dog that when seen can change minds

EDIT : Sorry for carrying this on and changing subjects, its just nice to talk to Staffy owners on my level, most of the owners around where i live are the type of owners i like to avoid, the feed it till it pops and show off type of owners. These people are not who i want advice from.

Carry on as much as you like!

I cant add any thing, brilliant advice all given. The long lead training is brillant, thats how we started too. Just remember to feed the rope before being pulled over, as happened to hubby . No suprise there hes sniffing loads, hes just checking what/who has been there. When we first had Pixee, that was all she seem to do, we just let her be. Well done on the rescue.

Ok so i solved the lip curl issue with my puppy called red, he is now enjoying the training alot more since i reduced it from 20mins to 15 mins. he is also responding well to the recall tips i got from you guys, still not confident on unleashing him in a park or anything yet but he is paying more attention to me than the smells.

I though i would post a picture to show how far he has come and so you know what i was working with, from skin and bone to this lovely thing in 2 weeks with strong walks, training and proper food.

So here he is meet Red as you can see he likes to trash the fireplace display with his nose

The picture of innocence!