Sheep Attack - Where do we go from here? (Long Post)

I have been lurking on this site for some time but don’t tend to comment, however, over the weekend we have had a serious issue and I am looking for some advice.

I was away for the weekend and my husband took our dog Louis and his mums dog (Duke) for a walk in the country. Usually Louis stays pretty close and doesn’t wander off. Well they were playing and running up and down the hills and chasing each other. Duke ran off around the corner and Louis followed, they ended up out of sight and so my husband shouted and whistled them back. After a minute or so he heard loud barking and so he ran after them to where the noise was coming from (lost his phone and wedding ring along the way). When he got to there he realised that there were some sheep out of a field and on the main walkway. As he got to Louis he realised that he had chased and attached a sheep, biting its lip and cheek. This is so out of character for Louis as he has never had a high prey drive and I can’t think of any other times when he has chased an animal. Obviously if my husband knew the sheep were there or had seen them first Louis would have been on the lead in a flash. I know we are to blame and will deal with whatever the consequences are. We are 100% in the wrong. My husband went straight to the farm, explained what happened, helped them move the sheep to the barn and we will be paying all vet costs. The farmers wife has since rang and said that the sheep had a cut on its ear and its lip has had to be stitched.

My question is where do we go from here? He will always be on the lead in the countryside from now on and its shook my husband up that much he has said he will never let him off the lead anywhere.

I don’t know if paying the vet bills will be the end of the matter or if they have the right to take Louis away. I am so devastated and don’t know what to do.

I still can’t get my head around it, Louis is such a soft dog, never had issues with other dogs. Well socialised and has his Good Citizen award from the Kennel Club. We are both well aware of Staffys reputations and since the first day I got him I wanted to change peoples opinions on the breed. I am absolutely devastated and ashamed that we have played into the hands of people thinking he is a ‘devil dog’. I feel that I owe every staffy owner an apology.

Sounds like you did the right thing in offering to pay the vet bill. How did the farmer seem when you did this ? Did they say if they would be reporting the incident ? They would have the right to do so as you probably already know. I hope the link below is of some help:

http://www.nationalsheep.org.uk/dog-owners

Apparently the farmers wife was really good with my husband, he was shaking and was obviously very apologetic. She did say that he was lucky her husband wasn't there as he would have shot Louis (i know that's allowed). She rang again last night and spoke to my husband who said that we would go up to the farm as soon as the vet bill was in. There hasn't been any mention of taking it further yet.

Thank you for the link - i will go and read up on it now.

I have just purchased a long line for all future walks.

The long training line would be a very good idea

I'm really sorry that you're having to go through this. Ultimately - Louis is a dog! It's a normal behaviour, just needs to be managed. He may have been riled up from playing with the other dog, which may be why he acted out of character. I don't think that they could take Louis away for attacking livestock - you're obviously very sensible and this was an accident. All that you can do is learn from this unfortunate incident and move forward.

I can fully understand your distress but you have done everything you
can and I'm sure the Farmers will appreciate the way you have reacted.
After all, a lot of people in this position would have just legged it and not bothered to go to the farm for help
or to report what had happened.

What it boils down to is your dog has behaved as 'a dog' and he is no
different to any other breed.  This is why all dogs should be on the lead
amongst livestock (although your husband didn't realise their were sheep about).

You most definitely have not let anyone down and the only apology you need to make is to the Farmer.  Please don't beat yourselves up any more.
The sheep has been cared for and you have learned a very valuable lesson
no dogs are perfect and accidents can happen to anyone

Good Luck

It's normal dog behaviour, animals being animals. Bo doesn't go for sheep but then again he's young and when he gets older that might change (he licked a sheep's nose the other day, this huge muscular ram who wouldn't move out of the way, then Bo trotted off pleased with himself).

Happy to hear the farmer's wife was reasonable but the farmer sounds like a typical self-entitled tosspot. Up here in the Lakes farmers have hundreds of acres of enclosed fields, empty 365 days a year, yet choose to graze their livestock on open access land where people walk their dogs. These upland farmers are subsided up the butt by the taxpayer anyway. If their farms were treated like normal businesses and not bailed out every five minutes they'd fail within the year. All farmers up here do is hoard land, destroy natural environments and whinge when a dog bites one of their taxpayer funded sheep. IMO 90% of these farms should be shut down and sold off and the land returned to public use.

And here's another thought. Twice as many people are killed by cows every year in the UK than by dogs yet if we took a gun and shot a cow we'd be banged up for ten years. Yet a farmer can shoot our pets for simply running in the direction of a sheep. Does this sound remotely fair to anybody?

I'm rambling but the upshot is your dog bit a sheep. Forget about it, it's nothing.

How horrible for you all! Please don't beat yourself up about it. I think because it's so raw and you are obviously upset about the whole thing you may be over-worrying about it. I remember how I felt when my boy got hold of a chocolate lab back when he was about 6 months old, I was devastated and paniced about him being taken away, what the other owners would do, what they think etc but it's just the shock of it all. Babbled a bit but please try not to worry. Anyone can see you are responsible owners as like someone said above a lot of people would have just carried on walking and not reported it.

Dogs are predators, they will stalk, chase and kill given half the chance and even though your boy never did it before it doesn't mean he never would. There's no point trying to work out why he did it, because it's unlikely you'd ever know unless you learn to speak dog He did it and you've done everything you can to make a bad situation better, thank you for not walking away, and thank you for being responsible!

Like I said, it's very raw at the moment but in a few days time things would have calmed down and you will feel better.

A nasty shock for you both. As others have said, you have done the responsible thing & alerted the farmer so that help could be given to the sheep. I know it's no consolation to you or your hubby but this thread will serve as a warning to others when in the countryside.

I hope you can find a nice safe area to let Louis run when things aren't so fresh in your mind.

Thank you to everyone for replying. I do think we are all still in shock. It was a horrible experience for everybody and i really do hope its a warning for other people. No matter how much you think it wont happen, always keep them on a lead where livestock could be. We've learnt the hard way. Just waiting on a call to say what the vet bills are and then hopefully that will be the end of it and we can move on and learn from it. Thanks again, i feel more reassured now.

Dogs are a bit unpredictable at times I thought Harrie had no prey drive until she decided to make a Tiger snake her first animal to chase.

It sounds like your husband did all the right things after the attack he could have just buggered off and hoped know one seen him.

Iv known a lot of farmers in my life and most of them are reasonable people that love animals yes they will shoot a dog that is attacking their stock but they have a right to protect their stock as well, since your dog does not pose a threat to the stock anymore and you left him with no out of pocket expenses I cant see any point for him to follow through with any other action unless he a complete grump.

Cheers

well it sounds like your husband did the honourable thing and hats off to him! I doubt anything will come of this due to his actions as a responcible dog owner.
Next read up on the prey drive model, it fasinating and gives a good insight into what drives all types of dogs from herders to guard dogs. staffies like any other dog will follow its part in this model if the right buttons are pressed. your dog isnt a nasty dog it was simply following a primevil instinct evident in every breed of dog. i say read up just to put your mind at rest because you mentioned you were "devastated and ashamed" and i dont want you to feel like that, your boy is still the same good natured dog he has always been. just take a read up and see how his mind is working. here is something to start on and a good article as it explains why its hard for humans to sometimes pick up on a hunt kill drive in dogs, its because they are hiding it from the prey and thus us http://www.petplace.com/Dogs/predatory-aggression/page1.aspx#.VGE6Jmc_xr8

Fab read Nathan. Really interesting!

How are things today Staffymummy? I hope you are feeling a little better

Thank you for that link Nathan, it was a very interesting read and puts it into perspective.

Feeling so much better today. Not surprisingly I’m a worrier so I think the shock was making me over think it all. I’ll be much happier when the vet bills are paid though.

I've been looking into some training classes as it can’t hurt to improve his recall – he currently listens about 90% of the time, just depends what else is more exciting. So if we can improve this then I think my husband will be more confident in letting him off the lead again (Obviously he will always be on the lead wherever livestock may be)

Interesting post, Nathan. Thanks from me too for that.

One other thing I'd say from your original post, Staffymummy, and that is that I don't think it's a great idea to have dogs getting excited and running all over the place in open countryside anyway. It's hyping them up to react to anything that might be there, and they're also so far away you can't do anything about it. We allow running and chasing in specific safe areas, and the rest of the time they have been taught to potter next to or behind us. I should say they have as much play and chasing time at home as they like.

This sort of thing is a lesson to us all. It's so easy to love seeing our dogs running and having fun, but ultimately evey dog is a potential danger to livestock and it's our responsability to ensure the are under control.

It's rubbish when this sort of thing happens, Staffymummy, but as I think someone else said, Louis is still the same Louis you love, he's just got that instinct you hadn't been aware of before. Now you know about it, you can deal with it.

If it were me. I'd get my dog used to a muzzle and use it whenever he was off lead in open countryside. Better safe than sorry!

I think your husband did the right thing by going to the farmer - hopefully they'll think the same way & it'll go no further. But be aware that it might not be down to the farmer. The vet might feel it's necessary to alert the authorities. Let's hope not.

Rachel33 wrote:I don't think that they could take Louis away for attacking livestock - you're obviously very sensible and this was an accident. All that you can do is learn from this unfortunate incident and move forward.

What awful advice! Of course he could be taken away, or at the very least made to wear a muzzle in public.

Chasing/worrying livestock is a very serious matter & should not be trivialised like that.

What awful advice! Of course he could be taken away, or at the very least made to wear a muzzle in public.

Please don't be so disrespectful. Just because you disagree does not mean it's awful advice.

We are all aware it is a serious matter and nobody, not least Rachel is trivalising it. What we are doing though is recognising that the owner has done all that they can and has learnt their lesson. There is no need to frighten the owner further or reprimand them for something that was an accident and will not happen again as they understand what they did wrong and what they need to do in future.

What you have to think about is there were 2 dogs so your one might not have been the instigator. What was the breed of the other dog? Just because yours is a staffy it doesn't mean it was all down to him. You say duke ran off and Louis followed

Gilly - from my experience if the owner has carried out all correct training/socialization (which the owner can prove through the kennel club), hasn't had any previous accounts of aggression towards others, and the owners have followed the right path in reporting the incident, paying for vets bills and taking steps to ensure that this could never happen again, I very much doubt that her dog would be taken away and/or destroyed. The owner has realised that this was an awful incident and I'm not denying that, but the owner is clearly distraught and shouldn't be made to feel worse for what was clearly an accident.

I stand by statement in that it's a natural dog behaviour that needs to be managed. The owner has said that the dog will now be on lead around any livestock, therefore taking away any opportunity for this to happen again. I disagree that the dog needs to be muzzled if kept on a lead - most dogs will chase given the opportunity, and therefore most dogs need to be kept under control around livestock. This doesn't mean that they need to be muzzled.

Rachel33 wrote:Gilly - from my experience if the owner has carried out all correct training/socialization (which the owner can prove through the kennel club), hasn't had any previous accounts of aggression towards others, and the owners have followed the right path in reporting the incident, paying for vets bills and taking steps to ensure that this could never happen again, I very much doubt that her dog would be taken away and/or destroyed. The owner has realised that this was an awful incident and I'm not denying that, but the owner is clearly distraught and shouldn't be made to feel worse for what was clearly an accident.

I stand by statement in that it's a natural dog behaviour that needs to be managed. The owner has said that the dog will now be on lead around any livestock, therefore taking away any opportunity for this to happen again. I disagree that the dog needs to be muzzled if kept on a lead - most dogs will chase given the opportunity, and therefore most dogs need to be kept under control around livestock. This doesn't mean that they need to be muzzled.

i'm not tryuing to make her feel bad! but she says she will buy a long line - that won't be good enough for a dog that's got a taste for chasing sheep & it isn't worth the risk, in my opinion. if a dog is on a long line & has chsed sheep before then it ought to be muzzled as well. if it's on a short lead, of course, it won't need it.

you said

I don't think that they could take Louis away for attacking livestock

but you can't possibly know that! it depends on what the vet says, whether the farmers think it should reported and if the police get involved and the vet feels that the dog is dangerous.

surely the op should be aware of all eventualities and not have the situation sugar coated?

Id just like to clarify a few points, the long line is for everyday use until we get his recall improved with training. He will be on a short lead in areas where livestock may be. Although we will be avoiding those areas completely initially.

This is why I said "I don't think" rather than "they won't", obviously. Nothing is ever 100%. From what I understood Louis would be on a short lead around livestock and a long line for recall - as the OP has just confirmed. I'm really not one to sugar coat things, but I'm also not one to scaremonger (not saying that you are), but I don't think that my reply was "awful" as you have decided.

I am fully aware of the seriousness of what happened and that it could be taken further but I was merely here for support, suggestions and if anyone had past experiences. It was an accident which we cannot take back and we are prepared to go above and beyond to ensure that this never happens again.

I appreciate everybody’s comments and opinions as that’s what I came here for. Gilly, you are entitled to your opinion but I feel it’s wrong of you to repost other peoples comments and say how wrong they are. They are also entitled to their opinions.

surely the op should be aware of all eventualities and not have the situation sugar coated?

That's the point though, all the posts above yours made the OP aware of all eventualities and there was no need for you to point it out any further It was blatently obvious that the OP was fully aware that what happened can't happen again and she would do whatever it takes to make sure it doesn't. There was no sugar coating.

Rachel, I never said the dog should be muzzled on lead, only off lead or on a long lead in open countryside. if you are going to quote ne, please read my posts propely.

Debs01 wrote:

What awful advice! Of course he could be taken away, or at the very least made to wear a muzzle in public.

Please don't be so disrespectful.  Just because you disagree does not mean it's awful advice.  

We are all aware it is a serious matter and nobody, not least Rachel is trivalising it.  What we are doing though is recognising that the owner has done all that they can and has learnt their lesson.  There is no need to frighten the owner further or reprimand them for something that was an accident and will not happen again as they understand what they did wrong and what they need to do in future.

I wasn't being disrespectful, just pointing out facts. neither did I reprimand the op.

obviously muy posts have been taken badly. Sorry for that, but I speak as i find & it might not come out right