To muzzle or not?

Following on from my post "This mornings walk".
Alfie is not dog friendly, he gets nervous when out and will go for dogs if they go up to him. Some regular walkers we see on our walks know this and happily walk their dogs past at small distance or put them on the leas until we have passed. However there are always those don't feel they have to "because their dog is friendly and wont come over" They always do, even after repeated warnings.

So to avoid any damage to other dogs and slight peace of mind to me do I muzzle him?
1. I think people see ferocious dog (he is very people friendly)
2. Like the woman today who WRONGLY thought he was muzzled (head collar), thought it ok for her to approach. Even though this would stress Alfie out big time.
3. If he went for dog muzzled and it retaliated he couldn't defend himself.

On another thought would I still be able to use head collar or the muzzle for control? He is a big puller.

So unsure. Any opinions please?

Right off on school run..

I do muzzle and don't care about the stigma that comes with it, but it's taken me 3 years of apologising and worrying about what people think of me to get to this point! Biscuit is a big girl and could do some real damage to another dog, but I muzzle mostly for the fact the she will lunge and and nip passers by/their dogs if they spook her, and when I first took her in used to try to grab cyclists/kids on scooters, and though we've trained her out of it she will forget herself if scared. A scared dog is an unpredictable dog and it wouldn't hurt him to wear one when in a new place or heavily dog populated place, especially if he will nip or bite.

I only muzzle when pavement walking or if there are 2+ dogs in the field (that cannot be avoided by taking another route) and when we're on narrow trails in the woods that cannot be taken at a wide birth by another dog owner. If I'm in a familiar place and the owners know me and not to allow their dogs to approach Biscuit, I take the muzzle off so there's no need for him to wear it all of the time. I used to walk Biscuit on a halti when I lived in a busier area with the muzzle on too, you can do it but it did rub her nose a little Pretty sure Ella uses a different head collar and muzzle with Chance also with no problems!

Personally I think ALL dogs should be muzzle trained, you never know if they got into an accident and were hurt or took a dislike to veterinary or grooming treatment; if they were already desensitized to the muzzle it would be a much less traumatic experience getting them to wear the muzzle at times like these.

Ultimately, if your dog is under control and it's others that aren't you'e not in the wrong for not muzzling. It's entirely personal choice

Thanks Rachel.
Are they quite quick to put on? Alfie would be agitated if he could already see the dog.
We have to drive if we want to do wooded walks (about an hour away) and haven't yet taken Alfie. I suppose this could be good for him to be wearing ready in this situation when you never know when a dog is going to appear through the trees? Sometimes you don't see any, but wouldn't want to risk it.

It wouldn't be our fault but if there was injury, but it would be my word against theirs that he was on a lead and they were warned. Also I would feel bad that mine had done it and feel sorry for the dog, not its fault they got ignorant owners

Hope this makes sense, got 3 year old having a paddy at the mo  

I muzzle associated bis for about 3 weeks before testing it in a situation with another dog, as she really wasn't taking to it, but ultimately she's a terrier and gets stressy when she's got anything on her face so she just tolerates it more than anything. If you've trained him to wear the halti it's a similar way of desensitization

That's where I find it most useful, if in going to somewhere that I can't see clearly ahead and dogs can appear from nowhere on the moors or in the fields she doesn't ever have it on. I use a Baskerville ultra as I like her to be able to take treats through it to continue with her training, but have taken off the strap that goes between the eyes as it kept sliding down over her eye. I find it quite quick to buckle up but had quite a bit of practise of gettin muzzles on aggressive dogs in kennels!

I try not to put it on if she's already seen the dog as I don't want her to make the association between the muzzle and the scary thing, but on one or two occasions I've had to. Biscuit freezes when she sees another dog initially so I've got time to whip it on before she loses her sh*t! Depends what his reaction is? But would be careful not to make an association Aw no not a tantrum! Bless 'em!

flowerbud wrote:Following on from my post "This mornings walk".
Alfie is not dog friendly, he gets nervous when out and will go for dogs if they go up to him. Some regular walkers we see on our walks know this and happily walk their dogs past at small distance or put them on the leas until we have passed. However there are always those don't feel they have to "because their dog is friendly and wont come over" They always do, even after repeated warnings.

So to avoid any damage to other dogs and slight peace of mind to me do I muzzle him?
1. I think people see ferocious dog (he is very people friendly)
2. Like the woman today who WRONGLY thought he was muzzled (head collar), thought it ok for her to approach. Even though this would stress Alfie out big time.
3. If he went for dog muzzled and it retaliated he couldn't defend himself.

On another thought would I still be able to use head collar or the muzzle for control? He is a big puller.

So unsure. Any opinions please?

Right off on school run..

If it puts your mind at ease use one, allot of people are against it and i don't know why, it will protect other dogs and yours, (if he attacked a dog but that dog didn't feel a bite he is unlikely to attack back) Unless aggressive them selves.
when breaking up a dog fight it is hard enough getting one jaw off one dog never mind two, no he will not be able to defend him self but he is likely to get just as many bites and marks unmuzzled if in a real fight,and separating them would be quicker.
When i have muzzled dogs i found it really help with nervous dogs, others dogs call their bluff and wont retaliate making the muzzled dog realize not every dog attacks him.
Also there is a way to make the muzzle you buy, a quick release one, if you are wanting that in case of a bad situation.
I really do stand by muzzles in many situations not just aggression.
hint if you get muzzle or halti make sure it isn't the same colour as your dog so people can not make the same mistake that woman did today.

It really depends Rach, sometimes he will freeze or go low staring, but other times he will be bouncy/stressing. At home he will let you put his lead and headcollar etc on really well, but outside he has so many anxieties he cannot listen/focus on me at all.
Its certainly worth thinking about, will see what hubby thinks too.

She has stopped now, was short lived but loud! To be fair she is usually a sweetheart, but they all gotta try it on now and then    

Thanks Amelie.
Lots to think about. I've never had to think about one before and don't know any friends that have either. Come to think of it, cant say I've noticed any dogs around here wearing one. Might start a new trend

The trouble with a quick release is, if there was a bad fight I wouldn't be able to put my hands in the release it.

Can someone answer these question please regarding dogs being muzzled ?. I have always been unsure of the answers to these ones ?

If your dog is muzzled and it gets attacked and injured by a loose dog with an owner near by would you be able to claim of the other dogs insurance, for injuries, if they have insurance?

If they do not have insurance who do you claim for injuries from ?

If your dog is muzzled and was attacked and injured by a dog on a lead could you claim for the injuries to your dog from the other owner ?

Its really sad that you have to even think about this just because of irresponsible owners   

True Saz, unfortunately there will always be plenty of them out there

I muzzle Lola if she is off lead as I can't trust her. I don't muzzle her if she is on a lead walk as I keep her away from other dogs. I use a baskerville ultra muzzle   

Thanks Claire that one seems the popular choice.

Thinking about what Amelie said about not having the muzzle the same colour as the dog. Alfie is red and his Halti is black. I must admit I would probably have been tempted, if I got a muzzle to have one that didn't stand out so much. After all they cover a large part of their face. Any other views on this?

I've never muzzled any dogs I've had but to be fair I've never had to. My last dog was terrible with other dogs but was never off lead if any other dogs were around, luckily the area where we walked her was large, flat and you could see folk coming from quite a distance. If she had ever damaged another dog( she never got the chance) then yes that would have been my fault. With nico now he's so friendly that I don't think it's necassery but you never know so yeah I would consider it.

I've never muzzled any of mine either but I've never had an aggressive dog or lived in an area with irresponsible owners.

I've never muzzled any of our dogs but I do think its a good idea to train them and be comfortable with one in case they do need to use on occasion.
I'm trying to get hold of a Baskerville Ultra to start Marquez getting used to it although I don't think I'll have the need for him to use it on a regular basis. I'm starting to see that he is absolutely not aggressive or reactive to other dogs. Just yesterday a little yorky terrier type dog tried to attack him in a petshop   :-< . He's not had luck this week with dogs trying to go for him no reason with the dog on saturday being a golden retriever but just like saturdays reaction, he was totally ignored the dog but turning his back to him and just plopping on the ground ignoring him while the person who brought the dog out restrained the aggressor.

Kathy wrote:Can someone answer these question please regarding dogs being muzzled ?. I have always been unsure of the answers to these ones ?

If your dog is muzzled and it gets attacked and injured by a loose dog with an owner near by would you be able to claim of the other dogs insurance, for injuries, if they have insurance?

If they do not have insurance who do you claim for injuries from ?

If your dog is muzzled and was attacked and injured by a dog on a lead could you claim for the injuries to your dog from the other owner ?

I would also like to know the answers to this.

You can use a slip lead and make it into a head collar, its better control than a head collar and you can use a muzzle as well, if you want to know how to do it let me know, hope this helps.

Thanks all.
Kattie his head collar is a Halti which does close his mouth too, although as I say his teeth did just manage to make contact. Wouldn't be as secure as a muzzle.

flowerbud wrote:Thanks Claire that one seems the popular choice.

Thinking about what Amelie said about not having the muzzle the same colour as the dog. Alfie is red and his Halti is black. I must admit I would probably have been tempted, if I got a muzzle to have one that didn't stand out so much. After all they cover a large part of their face. Any other views on this?

You can get tan colours in the old baskervilles, I looked into this too but preferred the comfort of the ultras, you can get light blue ones though to make them look a bit prettier I know there's a lady with a specially made pink one for her exempted little girl too!

Thanks Rachel. Yes will probably go with the Ultra, but it looks like a lot of place stock black. in the end I suppose it doesn't matter too much. When we get the chance might take him P.A.H for a proper fitting. See what colours they do.

Finally got one this p.m. Here are some pics when we tested him for a few mins at home. He wasn't too impressed. He couldn't chew a biscuit in it but managed some choc drops. Doubt he will manage the liver cake which is the only thing he will eat when out. Will keep practicing at home before taking him out in it. Not sure how effective the halti will be with it. Trial and error.
I do realise in some of the pics we hadn't tightened it all up properly yet, is now.

Ohhhh no!! Bless him. If he's in between sizes like biscuit is, it does seem to make it a little harder to drink and take treats, though biscuit can take little training treats no problem! I found the halti worked with it no problem, though did rub her nose a little. Also, I got rid of the middle of the head strap on mine as it kept going into her eyes, once trained she didn't try to get it off so didn't need the extra safety mechanism!

hi you would get a slip lead that you can use as a halti over that muzzle i have helped a few people with pulling dogs when they have to use muzzles, if you want to know how to do it i can help you out x

Hi Rach, for some reason I don't always get your notifications   

I will try it with the halti round the garden a good few times. I will look out for top strap and his eyes thanks. I wont take it off though until I know he cant remove it, like he does the halti! Pets at Home are usually really good and although the man helping us with the fit was nice, he said the top strap clips to the dogs collar! Well, he put it on and as the collar turned (the heavier buckle always makes its way down doesn't it) so the top strap pulled tight sideways across his eye! Not a great start, but we sorted it lol.

He just about got the treat (small doggy biscuit) but then didn't have enough room for a good enough chew. Might try sticks of cheese as I can push them in through the "bars". Could make his liver cake into smaller pieces but then I have to reach his mouth, he kept dropping his choc drops!   

kattie wrote:hi you would get a slip lead that you can use as a halti over that muzzle i have helped a few people with pulling dogs when they have to use muzzles, if you want to know how to do it i can help you out x

Hi Kattie, to be honest I'm not sure about a slip lead. Don't they just stay tight for a long as he is pulling? He would be strangled before he stopped   he was so bad with just the collar when we first got him. We now have a double ended lead attached to the Halti and Harness. Will see how we get on, though Im not sure the Halti & muzzle will be comfy together, but only got this pm. Thanks though

you can make the slip lead into a figure of eight, it goes around the neck and over the nose they cannot pull on it at all and it sits ever so comfortable on them x

Oh right, I was thinking more "noose!" Lol.
So he wont feel it directly on his nose, does it not slip up the muzzle into his eyes?

no they sit perfectly on the nose and dont move up into the eyes or anything, no not like a noose lol!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iv7uanUCZY

heres a link which will show you exactly what i mean x

then its all in one and you have brilliant control with it x

I see now, thanks Kattie, something to consider if halti doesn't work well with it.

happy to help, would suggest getting a fairly thin slip lead if your going to use it with the muzzle so its more comfortable that way x

Hey, no worries lovey! Yeah that was the same problem that we have, we use the el perro collar with the big D ring and that was what kept pulling the strap into her eye so I just took it off. I don't need to use the halti anymore as Bis has settled with just the collar/harness now, but as far as I remember the halti sat just behind the muzzle, so seemed the same as usual. As far as I remember Ella used these type of head collars http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/dog-Martingale-head-collars-fleece-lined-bright-multicolored-adjustable-/380867777909 with Chance and his muzzle and had no problems.

Bis still drops her treats lol! I ended up using primula and just squeezing it into her mouth in the end, but we can mostly do the commands without food now so don't need to worry too much, as well as living in the middle of nowhere and rarely seeing anyone!!

 Can just Bis with primula all round her mouth now!   
On the box it shows it clipped to the back strap of the muzzle, which was much better. Yes Alfie's collar is Elperro.
Obviously not had chance to fully try it out but in the bottom 2 pics above, he has the Halti under the muzzle. Its kind of directly on top of the Halti.
Thanks for the link. Will see if I can find some pics of lovely Chance in it

In the sticky there is Chance in the muzzle but not head collar. Anyway Jules said she smeared peanut butter onto the inside of it, will try that too.
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t42623-muzzle-training-a-dog?highlight=muzzle

Marley is very dominant so ignores most dogs as he cant be botherd with them. Yet there has been occasion where one will invade his space and ignore all his warning signs and there are alot he has quite a large "annoyance" theshold but if he does turn he will pick the dog up and give it a shake. Now I dont muzzle him and never will because as hes always leaded ive taken away his flight instinct and then if people cant keep there dog away from mine despite my warnings its on there head not mine. I can only do so much but I refuse to put a muzzle on him and turn him into a basket case just because of other peoples stupidity.
Btw kathy, as long as you dog is on a lead and your not goading it to attack it is deemed under control and anything/anyone that approaches does so at there own risk. You are within your rights to claim for any damages incurred. Under control is the key element and being leaded is all it takes to satisfy that.

She's a messy bugger haha usually have to give her chops and muzzle a wipe down after muzzle training! As in clipped to the muzzle strap? I thought that would move even more as it's flat surface! Let me know how you get in with it that way! He's got quite a little face so I guess it'll sit different to him as opposed to chance or bug.. Think those martingale collars may be a bit wide.. And leather ones probably a bit intricate. That's a bit frustrating! Probably give it a go on a few walks and see how he gets on. I've used the leads that kattie is referring to but not at the same time as a muzzle so that may be trial and error too!

Totally agree with you on some points Nath, and it's right that on lead is under control, but only last week an owner I know was given a formal warning for his dog not being muzzled (even though on lead) as he attacked an off lead puppy, so although the law technically states that, if your dog is known to be aggressive, the police will expect them to be muzzled. If he attacks again he'll be seized. I think muzzles are invaluable for training confidence in owner, and therefore dog too. Accidents happen, my OH accidentally let go of my last foster dogs lead and he went bounding up to a random entire male gsd, didn't go down well! If a little Yorkie did that to Biscuit it could potentially be killed, and I'm not willing to put that on me or her for the sake of not muzzling, that's somebody else's pet and I'm sure they dote on them as much as I do my dog, so if I can prevent them from being hurt by my dog, who could kill another dog, I will. Each area is different, but there are lots of kids and elderly walkers around me, and it doesn't bother me to muzzle bug. I think selectiveness with other dogs is different to aggression with all unknown dogs, which Biscuit has and it sounds like Alfie has a bit of too from what I've read.

Yes to its own strap, its quite snug so shouldn't move too much.


Yes will try out with his usual stuff first and see.