Bite out of nowhere

Hi guys

Had a really upsetting, stressful and shocking day today. I took our 3 year old rescue staffy Kiara for her morning walk. I was in the gated park on our estate and had her off lead playing fetch with a ball. Another dog came into the park with owner. The dogs have met and been introduced on lead before and the other lady let her dog run over to mine. They greeted each other all tails wagging and played together with both my dogs ball and the other dogs. After about ten minutes whilst both dogs were running off in the same direction with heads down I just heard a growl and Kiara bit and held onto the other dogs cheek. There had been no signs if aggression what so ever. I ran over as fast as I could and Trieste put myself between the two. Kiara was locked on with her front teeth and would not let go. I was desperately trying to open her mouth, the other lady was kicking and pulling her and she would just not let go. I tried grabbing her throat but by this stage my strength was waining.

Fortunately a few residents rushed over and we managed to separate them. Once separate both dogs were wagging their tails. The other dog was left with two puncture wounds to the cheek which haven't required stitching. Luckily the other lady was very understanding about the whole thing.

We haven't owned Kiara long but she was supposed to be fine with other dogs and cats. The previous nit she had played with a puppy no problems. The whole thing has shaken me up and I am worries about our cat. We have a baby gate on the stairs so the cat can stay up there. So far the times they have met she hasn't shown any aggression and they have kissed each other. Every night the cat comes in and out and Kiara knows to stay on the sofa.

Sorry for the essay, I am just very concerned

Cheers

meeting on lead is fine and walking of the lead is fine, but ad a ball or toy then this has been the changing point for both dogs.

mine will never growl or bark at another dog, but he will not back down if challenged and its being able to know your dogs stress points. its sounds if your dog has ran for ball and the other has snapped and then the meeting has happened or vise versa.

as for your cat you will find that the dog will bow to the cat in the house mine certainly knows that the cat is the boss in the house.

Cheers Paul. I was a little concerned the first time the other dog picked up Kiara's ball but she didn't seem to pay much attention to this. Maybe after a while she had just had enough of the other dog chasing her ball as well. It has really knocked my confidence and I definitely won't be letting her off the lead in the park again. Such as shame she is so obedient, clever, and does pretty much every thing you tell her to.

I feel bad as well as we live on a very nice estate, she is the only staffy and now she looks like the big bad staffy.

The cat has just come downstairs wanting to be let out as as usual she stayed on the sofa and just watched him walk outside.

I would suggest keep a break stick in your pocket, next time your dog could have another in a stronger hold (their jaws do not lock it is a myth). Always be careful when breaking up a fight, make sure you are not doing it alone or you could get bitten, or find it impossible to break the dogs up.
Dog aggression and animal aggression are different, just like dog aggression and human aggression. You hear of dogs being fine with other dogs but will attack cats given the chance. Your cat should be fine but remember never lock them in a room together! my cats put the dogs in their place if they step the line  
This attack doesn't sound like a serious incident, not one I would consider putting a muzzle on for. I would suggest that this was a dominance fight and you may have missed the signs they were sending each other. I always miss the signs haha. Possibly, she got possessive over 'her ball', my dogs have been snapped at by dogs defending their prize toys. Remember, even aggressive dogs hell-bent on killing each other wag their tails so don't just go off this.
Try putting the dog on the lead, going for a pack walk (so keep them behind they cannot overtake you or pull) and when you meet a strange dog make them sit behind you. This way you are taking charge in this introduction and they will feel less pressured to respond. When they are confident that you are the alpha and you lead the pack towards another dog confidently you may find that your dog is more submissive and less reactive.
I would look for a more excluded area to walk you dog off lead until you are confident to take her out off lead. This can be weeks, months, years but you have to feel confident otherwise your dog will sense your energy and see you as a weak leader which dogs do not follow, and may decide to take control.
I hope I helped, I am not a trainer of any sort and have only owned dogs for a brief period of time so I apologise if I am incorrect. I hope this problem is solved. Good luck!

Many thanks Rachel for the great advice, deft makes me feel a lot better. You are probably right, me and the other owner must have just missed the signs.

I am glad I helped make you feel better  there is no end to learning about dog behaviour haha I wish they came with a manual

adamprinceofeternia wrote:Cheers Paul.  I was a little concerned the first time the other dog picked up Kiara's ball but she didn't seem to pay much attention to this.  Maybe after a while she had just had enough of the other dog chasing her ball as well.  It has really knocked my confidence and I definitely won't be letting her off the lead in the park again.  Such as shame she is so obedient, clever, and does pretty much every thing you tell her to.  

I feel bad as well as we live on a very nice estate, she is the only staffy and now she looks like the big bad staffy.  

The cat has just come downstairs wanting to be let out as as usual she stayed on the sofa and just watched him walk outside.

you will find that if they meet again, it will be as nothing has ever happened, it may have been who threw the ball as well,
it is hard but, sounds if you have a nice dog, but you now know that you cant play with toys on open space with other dogs.

mine plays with two patterdale,s every couple of days, we found early that running and playing is fine but add a toy and world war 3 breaks out. they even work together in the hedges for chasing rabbits.

Bringing toys or food into any dog+dog meeting where they don't know each other is a big no no for me! I wouldn't introduce anything that there could be competition over personally. My dad's dogs still have scraps over toys and they've all lived their whole lives together, they're whippets however and won't do as much damage as a staff! Go back to basics and keep socializing her, do as you have been with your cat as previously mentioned aggression is not transferable, if your dog has been well socialized with cats they could still have a dog problem, or want to chase squirrels! Pack theory is highly outdated, and can often cause more problems than good, but boundaries and basic training will help to build your bond. As a breed terriers are independent and impulsive, so training can really help to bring that focus back on to you also a dog can change an awful lot in a kennel setting so you may see some new personality traits as she becomes more confident in the home. The main thing is to keep steady and you're welcome to ask as many questions as you would like here!

Many thanks for all the advice. The situation has just really knocked my confidence, she was supposed to be ok with other dogs. I'm not confident now about letting her meet other dogs on the lead because I'm worried that she will snap again and I really don't want to go through that especially as my estate is small and I would think if it happened again someone would report her. She is such as lovely dog too.

How is pack mentality outdated that is what boundaries are ?

adamprinceofeternia wrote:Many thanks for all the advice.  The situation has just really knocked my confidence, she was supposed to be ok with other dogs.  I'm not confident now about letting her meet other dogs on the lead because I'm worried that she will snap again and I really don't want to go through that especially as my estate is small and I would think if it happened again someone would report her.  She is such as lovely dog too.  

Although the rescue centre will have tested her with other dogs, the tesing would not have been under stressful situations - ie with both dogs playing together, with balls, for 10 minutes or so. That doesn't make her dog aggressive, but does mean that you may have to limit play with other dogs to shorter periods. Just watch her body language; if she appears to be getting too boisterous, or a bit over tired or possessive, stop the play & pop her back on her lead for a few minutes to calm down.

12rachel2 wrote:How is pack mentality outdated that is what boundaries are ?

Boundaries have nothing to do with pack mentality/pack leadership etc. This type of training (Cesar Milan) is outdated and is based on discredited research. The man who originally wrote the book about pack leadership has admitted that he was wrong & has tried (without success) to get his book withdrawn from sale. His research was based on observing a wolf pack that had been 'thrown together' (ie not a natural family pack) and kept in captivity. Their behaviour was nothing like a wild wolf pack's behaviour.

I apologise, I didn't mean the bullying behaviour of a pack leader I did mean positive rewards whilst being firm and 'not a push over' to your dog so you don't get an out of control pooch. I meant the human-dog relationship whilst putting yourself as head rather than a servant. I hope you understand what I mean

Caryll wrote:

adamprinceofeternia wrote:Many thanks for all the advice.  The situation has just really knocked my confidence, she was supposed to be ok with other dogs.  I'm not confident now about letting her meet other dogs on the lead because I'm worried that she will snap again and I really don't want to go through that especially as my estate is small and I would think if it happened again someone would report her.  She is such as lovely dog too.  

Although the rescue centre will have tested her with other dogs, the tesing would not have been under stressful situations - ie with both dogs playing together, with balls, for 10 minutes or so. That doesn't make her dog aggressive, but does mean that you may have to limit play with other dogs to shorter periods. Just watch her body language; if she appears to be getting too boisterous, or a bit over tired or possessive, stop the play & pop her back on her lead for a few minutes to calm down.

12rachel2 wrote:How is pack mentality outdated that is what boundaries are ?

Boundaries have nothing to do with pack mentality/pack leadership etc. This type of training (Cesar Milan) is outdated and is based on discredited research. The man who originally wrote the book about pack leadership has admitted that he was wrong & has tried (without success) to get his book withdrawn from sale. His research was based on observing a wolf pack that had been 'thrown together' (ie not a natural family pack) and kept in captivity. Their behaviour was nothing like a wild wolf pack's behaviour.

She wasn't in a rescue centre as such, she was in foster homes but I understand what you are saying. To be honest I can't see me letting her playing with any other dogs anytime soon as I really can't risk yesterday's situation happening again. Yes in hindsight myself and the other owner shouldn't have let them play with the toys together but the bite and lock literally seemed to come from nowhere, neither one of us could have pre-empted it. I would rather not take the risk.

Don't dwell on it is the only advice I can give you. If she has always played well before (albeit roughly) then she almost certainly will again. Staffords don't hold grudges, generally, and she is highly unlikely to remember that little spat!

Just make the play periods a little shorter, and keep toys etc out of the equation. I'm sure she'll be fine. 

Caryll wrote:Don't dwell on it is the only advice I can give you. If she has always played well before (albeit roughly) then she almost certainly will again. Staffords don't hold grudges, generally, and she is highly unlikely to remember that little spat!

Just make the play periods a little shorter, and keep toys etc out of the equation. I'm sure she'll be fine. 

Cheers. I think for my own peace of mind I am going to muzzle her when being let off lead again in the future.

adamprinceofeternia wrote:

Caryll wrote:Don't dwell on it is the only advice I can give you. If she has always played well before (albeit roughly) then she almost certainly will again. Staffords don't hold grudges, generally, and she is highly unlikely to remember that little spat!

Just make the play periods a little shorter, and keep toys etc out of the equation. I'm sure she'll be fine. 

Cheers.  I think for my own peace of mind I am going to muzzle her when being let off lead again in the future.

Again, I'm not sure that's good either. If another dog attacks her she can't defend herself. I would only muzzle an out and out dog aggressive dog, and to be honest, I think she just got a bit too excited and forgot her manners.

Obviously if it were to happen again, I'd consider a muzzle, but I don't think there's a need at the moment.

Caryll wrote:

adamprinceofeternia wrote:

Caryll wrote:Don't dwell on it is the only advice I can give you. If she has always played well before (albeit roughly) then she almost certainly will again. Staffords don't hold grudges, generally, and she is highly unlikely to remember that little spat!

Just make the play periods a little shorter, and keep toys etc out of the equation. I'm sure she'll be fine. 

Cheers.  I think for my own peace of mind I am going to muzzle her when being let off lead again in the future.

Again, I'm not sure that's good either. If another dog attacks her she can't defend herself. I would only muzzle an out and out dog aggressive dog, and to be honest, I think she just got a bit too excited and forgot her manners.

Obviously if it were to happen again, I'd consider a muzzle, but I don't think there's a need at the moment.

I understand your point and do agree however I am not comfortable as the situation could happen again. If muzzled it would only be whilst off lead in the gates park area of our estate whilst other dogs aren't there.

I understand your wariness. If you're dead set on a muzzle, make sure it's a) a wire basket type b) she's introduced to it properly and c) you try it on her before you buy so that you are totally happy with the fit.

Caryll wrote:I understand your wariness. If you're dead set on a muzzle, make sure it's a) a wire basket type b) she's introduced to it properly and c) you try it on her before you buy so that you are totally happy with the fit.

Thanks. Are there any muzzles that anyone recommends? I had been told about the Baskerville basket muzzle however this is made out if plastic. I have read about putting treats in the muzzle so she puts her head in it of her own accord and will defiantly read more on getting her used to a muzzle.

The Baskerville ones are perfect. They don't need to be made of toughened steel - they are purely to stop your dog's teeth coming into contact with flesh (human or dog!).

Yes that's the way to get them used to a muzzle. There's a thread here somewhere on it, but I can't find it. Ella's dogs both have muzzles & she can tell you exactly how to do it.

Staffords make great dogs and pets but I have never ever bought into the whole "nanny dog" or "staffies wont start a fight" kind of talk .... i'm well aware of what my dog is capable of and what's on the end of the lead. On reaching maturity they can and will fight with other dogs no matter how well socialised and they should not be expected to run and play around with other dogs because eventually somewhere down the line they are going to end up having a scrap, it's in their nature and something that goes back almost a hundred years in their heritage. Many owners drop their guard with this breed.

I know a lot of people let them run off the lead but personally I don't think they are off the lead type dogs.

Atb,
Paul

I know a lot of people let them run off the lead but personally I don't think they are off the lead type dogs.

I have to agree with you there I think when other dogs are about its best not to have a Staffy off the lead. Fine when nobody's about.

Oh,I so agree with you Debs01. Our Poppy is a wonderful loving,gentle Staffy and so good...except !! if she meets other dogs on a lead (we never let her off a lead,as a rescue dog,one can never be sure imo).
We have no idea why she growls at other dogs when out for walks,so better to be safe than sorry.

Caro - I'm the same with Axl, he's not a rescue we've had him since he was 8 weeks old. He's a well behaved, gentle, loving boy very very sweet BUT still, he is so unpredictable. I think its just one of those things with Staffies, I agree with Hakuna when he says your guard shouldn't be let down. I learnt my lesson now Axl will only be off lead with nobody else about, even with dogs he knows I will only let him play for a little while as he seems to get fed up with other dogs very quickly! I prefer to err on the safe side

Debs,it's small terrier dogs she will growl at,Not large dogs...
Hubby always crosses the road when/if he comes upon a smaller dog now,smaller than Poppy is ...so he avoids any confrontation.
Btw,when we rescued her,we found small scars on her head,and leg,you can see them quite clearly,so we think she has been in a scrap sometime before we had her.
We adore her,she is so loving, gentle,and loves all the fuss,and love we give her,we have had her just over a year now.
Anyone who is visiting us she makes a fuss of,and then settles on her bed.
She is very obedient also.So pleased we rescued her.

Thanks for all the tips and help. Will look into a Baskerville muzzle. This will just be a safety measure for when she is running off lead. This will be in our gated park and only when there are no other dogs around. The only reason for the muzzle is because other residents open the gates and just let their dogs charge in off lead.

Axl is the opposite, he doesn't mind little dogs he doesn't like the bigger ones lol.

She does look lovely from your profile pic, she's a cutie

Debs thanks,she loves nothing better than to curl up on hubbys lap,and she adores tummy tickle
How she ever found her way to a rescue centre we will never know,someone somewhere must miss her,and she was chipped !!
But we were blessed with her,and she is now ours.

I just need to say I have a da dog and a very happy go lucky dog when Skye was 6months old we were in our local park and she was playing very happily with another staff girl same age. All was fine until the other owner started throwing a ball for them. Ended up in a fight with a few marks on both dogs and me being accused of having a dangerous dog. A few days later Skye was back playing quite happily with her friends and if someone got a ball out she went on lead with no problems. Even though my boy is da Skye still remains happy to meet and play with other dogs she has been attacked by a few small dogs but shows no sign of aggression even to the dog she had a tiff with which did in the end make the other owner back down about her being aggressive. Please don't jump to conclusions yes every dog will not get on with every other dog they see but unless your dog is definitely da then I wouldn't muzzle. Even my boy doesn't wear a muzzle when out unless someone doesn't control their dog and keep it away.