Vacinations - is it really a minefield

So took Tommy for his boosters today - 17.5kg , vet thought he was in fantastic condition and a big 10/10 for him .

I took the opportunity to get his response about vaccinations as Tilly is 3 next month and will be due hers.
In short he told me that comments about vaccs lasting 2-3 years are largely correct , however .....
They do staggered vaccinations so that Tilly / Tommy do not get the same ones every year fo different diseases , must say I was overwhelmed a little with some of the medical terms but sounded like he knew what he was talking aout

The 2 vaccs on Tommy's card are Nobivac Lepto 2 and Nobivac DHPPi , and he was explaining next year he won't get the DHPPi but they will administer the Lepto 2 vacc , alot of vets don't do the Lepto vacc (apparently) but it relates to liver proiblems and also transferrable to humans if I understood it correctly .

Little bit confused with the terms but has anyone got any clues / comments . Can't find Tilly's card atm to see ehat she had last year (2 years old then)

Yes I had the same chat with my vets when Moo had her boosters, but they weren't boosters she had to start the whole course again as I had left it 3 years. To be honest I doubt they need them every year but for peace of mind I do anyway, if it could prevent anything I could stop I will, but there are plenty that don't. Yes it is a bit boggling lol x

Just found Tilly's vacc card and it was only to 2011 , OH has a habit of misplacing the vet cards so we have to get them replaced and updated so no help there. I'm just going to go with the flow and trust the vet I think

i got the parvo one but not again since, just cause i know she haddn't had the parvo one in a while and there were live cases. i still feel she is covered but i suppose a bit of research wont hurt.

Vets will vaccinate against Leptospirosis (Weil's disease in humans) if there is a problem in the area. All the core vaccines last at least 3 years and possibly longer. Lepto lasts approx 2 years so vets may consider it necessary to vaccinate annualy for that.

It's been 3 years since Dempsey's first annual booster & I'll be getting a titre test done at the vets to determine what his immune levels are like for all of the vaccinatable diseases & I'll vaccinate according to need.

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t39258-wsava-update-on-vaccinations

How much is a titre test, how reliable is it and what are the known problems from vaccinating yearly ??

I don't know the exact cost yet, but I'm told it's about the same as a full course of boosters & could prove that your dog doesn't need to be vaccinated (I'll let you know next week). It's totally reliable because it detects the antibodies present in the blood & so shows the levels of immunity. The same test can also be done for humans.

If you over vaccinate you risk building up an immunity to the vaccine & therefore increase the risk of contracting the disease. Also, some of the vaccines (Lepto especially) are known to cause severe allergic reactions, in some cases leading to rapid death! Not that unusual!

Short answer seems to be Dave that yes, it is a minefield!

And IMHO it shouldn't be. I always went on the premise that we humans are vaccinated in babyhood, with a booster at 5 years old, and we are protected for life, so why shouldn't it be the same for dogs? And the cynic in me said "because it's a nice little earner for vets".

If, as Caryll says, over-vaccination can cause the problems she mentioned, then why don't vets recognise this and only vaccinate every 3 years (which still seems excessive when compared to humans). Can it only be the revenue they receive from yearly vaccinations? If so, aren't they being irresponsible with our dogs' health?

Oh what a minefield indeed  

One of the problems has been the unreliability of the vaccine strength in the past. This has now largely been corrected and all core vaccines should last a minimum of three years, and with some dogs for life! The ones that may be needed more often are the non core vaccines such as Lepto and Kennel Cough. A good vet is aware of any problems in the area regarding Lepto and should advise you accordingly, especially if you have a working dog that is regularly in and out of rat infested water!

I'm lucky, my vet will vaccinate if the client insists, but will always advise against over vaccinating. Last time I went in there (2 years ago) for a 10 minute appointment I was in there for half an hour discussing the various pros & cons of boosters! He advised me that the WSAVA (made up of the world's leading small animal vets!) are up to date on all the latest advancements with vaccines & are in a very good position to give advice regarding whether or not to vaccinate.

P.S. It's always advised that your dog either has the first annual booster or gets a titre test to show the levels of immunity. After that, it's every 3 years in general.

Caryll wrote:I don't know the exact cost yet, but I'm told it's about the same as a full course of boosters & could prove that your dog doesn't need to be vaccinated (I'll let you know next week). It's totally reliable because it detects the antibodies present in the blood & so shows the levels of immunity. The same test can also be done for humans.

If you over vaccinate you risk building up an immunity to the vaccine & therefore increase the risk of contracting the disease. Also, some of the vaccines (Lepto especially) are known to cause severe allergic reactions, in some cases leading to rapid death! Not that unusual!

But the allergic reaction to the Lepto vaccine would this not show itself at the first vaccination or is it an allergy that can develop as a dog matures ??

Dave wrote:But the allergic reaction to the Lepto vaccine would this not show itself at the first vaccination or is it an allergy that can develop as a dog matures ??

It can happen at any time. It's one of those that can be fine the first 2 or 3 times and then suddenly flares into anaphylactic shock! I suppose it's a build up & that's why they're advising restraint.

Caryll wrote:

Dave wrote:But the allergic reaction to the Lepto vaccine would this not show itself at the first vaccination or is it an allergy that can develop as a dog matures ??

It can happen at any time. It's one of those that can be fine the first 2 or 3 times and then suddenly flares into anaphylactic shock! I suppose it's  a build up & that's why they're advising restraint.

  

Glad I read this, definitely something to check up on Rockys vaccination cards and speak to vet about!

Bailey has had puppy jabs and first booster and will have no more, I'll titre test instead. Sierra has had puppy jabs and that's it!

When I phoned the vets they weren't even sure what titre testing was so had to ask one of the vets which came back saying a titre costs more than a course of vaccinations! Even though Glasgow Uni charge £17 per test

Just looking at Rockys vacination card and he has the same as Tommy - Nobivac Lepto 2 and Nobivac DHPPI. He has also had Quantum Dog DA2Pi and Quantum Dog CPV-L.

Last time he only had the Nobivac Lepto 2 jab.

StuW wrote:When I phoned the vets they weren't even sure what titre testing was so had to ask one of the vets :)which came back saying a titre costs more than a course of vaccinations! Even though Glasgow Uni charge £17 per test

The university would probably have all the testing aparatus on site, whereas the vet would have to send it away, pay their test fee plus charge his own.

I think I'd rather pay a bit more for the tests & avoid over vaccinating.

Kathy wrote:Just looking at Rockys vacination card and he has the same as Tommy - Nobivac Lepto 2 and Nobivac DHPPI. He has also had Quantum Dog DA2Pi and Quantum Dog CPV-L.

Last time he only had the Nobivac Lepto 2 jab.

That's the full course, I think. It's certainly the distemper, parvo & lepto vaccines & I think the other one is hepatitis. Rocky shouldn't need any vaccines now for three years from the date of those vaccinations (apart from, in some cases, the lepto).

I don't vaccinate and my vets do titre testing and for the core diseases it costs me £90 a dog.

But i will not vaccinate if they don't need them, and if they were to ever show low immunity they get nosodes.

Kuchar had his puppy injections at 3 and 4 months old - according to the vaccination card they covered Parvo, Coronavirus, Distemper, Hepatitis, Parainfluenza (is this Kennel Cough?) and Leptospirosis. The stickers from the vials were put in on his card - they were Vanguard 7(CPV-L) (Ist jab) Vanguard 7 (DA-Pi) and (CPV-L) 2nd jab. One year later he had his booster and they only wrote in Vanguard Booster and the batch numbers.

After the initial course of jabs for my Dobermanns, I never had them vaccinated again for the rest of their lives - they were always fit and healthy and died at reasonable ages for Dobies of bone cancer.

We live on the bank of a small river, although he never goes in it (nor will he) but obviously there are rats and I have seen them occasionally running through our garden (I call it a garden, more a back yard these days!)

I have just under a year before I decide what to do for the best - the prospect of anaphylactic shock from over-vaccinating against Lepto is a worry.

Have you thought about nosodes instead lynda?

No Ella I haven't. And only because I haven't the faintest idea what nosodes are! (I really must use Google more often).

They are a safer alternative to jabs
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t35854-nosodes-alternative-to-vaccinations

Thank you Ella. I have read that link very carefully.

As I understand it, nosodes are the modern, homeopathic equivalent of the inoculation method whereby a small amount of living bacteria/virus/whatever, is introduced into a recipient to stimulate anti-bodies in the recipient which will protect it from larger invasions of the same "disease".

Whereas, vaccinations contain a small amount of the dead bacteria/virus/whatever, in order to stimulate the same production of anti-bodies to protect the recipient from the illness.

If I understand this rightly, then I would go for the dead bacteria/virus over the live one, as I can't understand why the introduction of living "gremlins" into a dog or human's body is preferable to the introduction of dead gremlins, towards the same result ie the production of anti-bodies.

No vaccinces carry far to many health risk as it is injected directly into the dogs blood stream

A nosodes is given as a drop or tablet and therefore not into the blood stream so doesn't cause the servere reactions and is therefore a lot lot safer

Right while i have a train of thought, i'll put this before i go to bed and forget what i was trying to say.

When you consider whether to give vaccination injection, nosodes or anything of this nature, one thing no one ever seem to mention is route of administration.

I studied immunology and biology of disease at uni and so route of administration was a big part.

The main difference between vacc and nosodes (apart from the ingredients) is the route,  vac are what is classed as very invasive route as it physically breaks the skins barrier and injects directly into the blood stream, nosodes are given in either drops or tablet form and is classed as a minor route.

The fact is it doesn't matter that nosodes uses a part of a live strain the fact is it doesn't go into the blood stream and therefore is not forcing a direct immune repsonse.

Vaccines contain so many chemicals and constituents to put it basically to hold the diseased part that are dangerous and damaging to the body either immediately or over long term.

Examples:
Formaldehye - very very common in most vaccines
aluminium - known to cause degeneration of the brain and nervous system
thimerosal - a mercury based compound

Neither are perfect but with the knowledge i've gained from uni, and alot of research there is NO way i will ever conventionally vaccinate a dog again.

A little off topic but I have the same train of thought with kids, my kids will NOT be vaccinated. Period.

Of course all my opinion, as most people on here have taken the time to consider vac and continue to give them which they are perfectly in their right to, just as i am for not giving them.

Thank you for the above Ella (and for sitting up all night writing it!).

If nosodes are given via the stomach route, doesn't the dog's digestive system which is stronger than a human's (it must be, I couldn't get away with eating poo like my dog does!) destroy the invasive germs before the body has time to manufacture anti-bodies?

Your off-topic point concerning vaccination of children - I understand your concern given what you have learned at uni - but when I was tiny in pre-history, children were dying of diphtheria and I knew several children who had to wear callipers on their wasted legs due to polio, and heard of several more who had to spend what was left of their lives living in an iron lung. Vaccination of my generation of post-war children has virtually eradicated these scourges, along with tuberculosis and small-pox (which is now extinct). I am grateful that I had vaccinations against these diseases. Vaccination against Measles was not available then and I contracted it at 6 years old and was very, very ill and I ended up having the crappy eyes that I have. I have my reservations about the MMR vaccine as that seems like overload on a tiny body to me - but that's even more off topic so I won't expand on that one!

Lynda, I absolutely agree with you!

Personally, I would vaccinate my children. Mainly because my brother had German Measles when he was very young, and it could have killed him if he hadn't had the vaccine beforehand, which provided enough defence to fight off the illness.

As has already been said though, it comes down to personal choice.

For dogs, I think certain vaccines aren't entirely necessary anyway, particularly depending on the area you live in.

Lynda wrote:Thank you for the above Ella (and for sitting up all night writing it!).

If nosodes are given via the stomach route, doesn't the dog's digestive system which is stronger than a human's (it must be, I couldn't get away with eating poo like my dog does!) destroy the invasive germs before the body has time to manufacture anti-bodies?

Your off-topic point concerning vaccination of children - I understand your concern given what you have learned at uni - but when I was tiny in pre-history, children were dying of diphtheria and I knew several children who had to wear callipers on their wasted legs due to polio, and heard of several more who had to spend what was left of their lives living in an iron lung. Vaccination of my generation of post-war children has virtually eradicated these scourges, along with tuberculosis and small-pox (which is now extinct).  I am grateful that I had vaccinations against these diseases.  Vaccination against Measles was not available then and I contracted it at 6 years old and was very, very ill and I ended up having the crappy eyes that I have.  I have my reservations about the MMR vaccine as that seems like overload on a tiny body to me - but that's even more off topic so I won't expand on that one!

Erm nosodes a lot harder to explain the vac but to put is simply it is digested and adsorbed in small amounts which causes an indirect immune response

I know all of the vac that are given now, thes ones that were given in times of the past, and the is NOTHING that will make me vaccinate my children, full stop.

Look all my schooling and my degree was basically all science and biology of disease so i like to think i know alot more then your average person, on top of my research, accumulated is about 10 years of intensive learning vaccinations are NOT needed and do so much more harm then good, i stand firm and will NOT be moved, neither my dogs nor my kids will be vaccinated.

Look I could spend hours putting together an argument which to me proves vaccines aren't needed, are dangerous and why i don't give them.

But it quite frankly would take forever to research papers, be far to indepth for some people and probably just confuse more then anything. So I just CBA

Ref nosodes - thank you for the additional information Ella. I just wondered about stomach acids and you have answered that question.

Ref the rest of my last post about vaccinations, ah look I wasn't trying to start a war, I was just commenting on what I as an average person experienced and yes, believed - up to now at least! I don't for one minute doubt that you know far more than I do on the subject and I respect your knowledge and the beliefs you hold as the result of that knowledge.

Pax?

Lynda wrote:Ref nosodes - thank you for the additional information Ella.  I just wondered about stomach acids and you have answered that question.

Ref the rest of my last post about vaccinations, ah look I wasn't trying to start a war, I was just commenting on what I as an average person experienced and yes, believed - up to now at least!  I don't for one minute doubt that you know far more than I do on the subject and I respect your knowledge and the beliefs you hold as the result of that knowledge.  

Pax?

Oh i wasn't trying to argue Lynda! sorry if it seemed like it

Just trying to make a point that it's not something i've decided on a wim it's something does interest me and i have dedicated my learning on and THAT is why i have come to the conclusion i have.

Like i said you are free to vaccinate how you wish, as am i

 ?

  Just because I like group hugs...

Good points all around. Hoping the titre test for Dempsey won't be too expensive! It's a useful test, but it does like to gobble money.

 Ella !

All I'll say on the matter is that vaccinations have rid our country (and in some cases the world) of some nasty diseases. That is a fact. Smallpox has been eradicated (apart from in laboratories) diptheria is virtually non existant, measles is quite rare and so is mumps.

I had both my kids vaccinated against all those, plus meningitis and cervical cancer in the case of Eleanor, and I would do it again.

It is, however, vastly different for kids than it is for dogs. Kids get the childhood jabs & they are immune for life; dogs up until recently were given yearly jabs and this is what is now being questioned, not whether the vaccinations work, or even if the first course plus the first annual booster are needed, but whether they are needed after that, and if so, how often.

Caryll, you and I are of a like mind (if you'll forgive the presumption) and it's the fact that children are immune for life after vaccination and dogs apparently are not and need yearly boosters (according to our vets) that has been bothering me. I would hate to think that vets have money eyes where our animals' well-being is concerned.

Lynda wrote:Caryll, you and I are of a like mind

We grew up at a similar time - one of my friends at primary school had her legs in calipers because she'd had polio, another had whooping cough & had really bad lungs afterwards. My Mum's friend's sister had diptheria as a child and developed chronic asthma afterwards.

I think people nowadays don't realise the horror of these relatively mild (now) diseases. Even measles can kill.

You're right Caryll, you and I grew up in a different country to what it is now and our opinions will be affected by what was then and what is now (and why) . Measles can kill, you're correct, although I think comparatively rarely when compared with diphtheria, tuberculosis and polio. As I mentioned I got measles aged 6 and was dreadfully ill, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, and I was lucky to escape with just bad eyes. Measles vaccine was available separately when my children were young and I had NO hesitation. I couldn't (in fact, wouldn't) vaccinate my younger child against whooping cough because he had (and still has) very sensitive skin which reacts badly to various allergens. But thanks to other people vaccinating their children against it he never came in contact with disease, and it is the fact that the majority vaccinate against these diseases that lessens the chance of a child who has not been vaccinated for whatever reason from contacting and contracting the disease. That's how I see it, anyway.

Back to dogs, I remember at least one dog dying from distemper in the '50s (well, he had dreadful fits and had to be pts). In the '70s (possibly '80s, I'm not sure now) parvo was rife and killing off puppies in droves, sometimes whole litters. I stand to be corrected, but I don't hear of dogs suffering from distemper or parvo these days.

My view is I know very different to most but mine is from a scientific perspective and I'm well aware of the dangers that dieases pose to both adults and children but I take my view from a very educated stand point.

Yes I know kids and dogs are different and should be treated as such, however I will not be swain from stand point neither will be vaccinated.

But I don't intend to be a very conventional parent either, but each to their own.

What I don't understand, Ella, is that you say your view is from a scientific perspective, and yet science has proved that vaccinations do give immunity to diseases that natural remedies cannot combat.

It has also proven that vaccination and in particular over vac is massively detrimental to the health of the individual.

Vaccines and the study of the has changed hughly over the last 20 years or so and the study into the long term affect is now a very real thing.

Vaccinations are not needed, I myself have had very few.

I'm not saying they haven't helped or done their bit, far from it but I still shall not give them.

Anyway, back on track....

I won't be getting the titre tests - my vet wants nearly £80 per test which, to cover all the core diseases, will come to over £300! I just can't afford it!

So I've got an appointment with one of the partners on Thursday am to discuss the way forward.

I'm going to try & keep an open mind about it.

That's a shame caryll! Bloomin' expensive.

I think the university vets/labs tend to be the cheapest

I'm keeping an open mind as well Caryll, and in my case (well, Kuchar's case) I have nearly a year to make the decision. I'd be very interested to learn the results of your upcoming discussion with your vet, if you'd care to share it.

As Ella says, it is the question of over-vaccination that concerns us as dog owners.

At least this doesn't happen with our children or indeed us as adults as we humans don't get vaccinated every year so as far as I at least am concerned, the main point is why our dogs are different to humans in this respect.

Whatever happens on thursday, I won't be vaccinating annually.

I'm keeping open to vaccinating/not vaccinating this year, but if I do vaccinate it'll probably be the last time.

Well let us know how you get on Caryll

As I've said in another post, I decided to have the boosters done, after a long & frank discussion with the head honcho vet.

He's very good, never talks down to you & assumes you understand the technical side of things (which generally speaking I do).

He explained why he doesn't always recommend titre testing as a way forward as it doesn't give a full picture of immunity, just the presence of antibodies.

I also agreed on the lepto jab as there are several water courses in the area, and one or two areas have rat problems - the two combined could be explosive, and he's had a couple of lepto cases recently!

No KC vaccine as neither he nor I see the point of it! 

All in all, a half hour chat, plus the boosters vaccs cost me £35, so I'm not too displeased!