Teaching not to jump up?

Hi peeps!

I'm going to be taking Charlie to training classes eventually but we've hit a barrier in that he's terrified of mechanical clickers. I've tried ones of varying softness, even a pen top click, hiding them, muffling them, and they all give the same fear reaction followed by a very swift association of treats = SCARY. We're visiting the vets next week and I'm going to ask them for a recommendation for one-on-one training to help get him past this fear, as I think that a room full of people clickering will be too much for him.

I wonder if you could advise me on the best way to teach him not to jump up at people in the mean time? He has a bad habit of head butting people who aren't quick enough to move away.. He's a sensitive little soul who just wants to please, and he's very food orientated.

Cheers!

The best way to stop him jumping up is every time he tries, use a trigger word like "Down", stand up straight & turn around. It's a bit like training no to nip - turn away & ignore. Some people also get a dog to sit before getting a fuss from friends/strangers.

Everyone must do the same thing, though; you'll get some people saying "It's ok, I don't mind" but it isn't ok! You need to tell them that he's in training & isn't allowed to jump up.

What sort of fear reaction does he give to a clicker? Have you any idea what caused him to dislike it so much?

What did you do to accustom him to the sound & rewards?

Cheers Caryll! Will try those.

With the clicker I followed instructions with the clicker to offer him a treat (small cube of cheese here), then click the clicker. I sit on the floor with him while I do this.

The first treat and click he flinches but accepts it. The second he starts to move away from me, the third further still and by the fourth he won't even accept the treat from me. He cowers down on the floor, either crawling behind the table or backing into a corner. I talk to him and he still won't come to me, and he shakes at the sight of the treats. It takes a good ten minutes of cajoling and cuddles before he decides that he can come near me and accept the cheese.

I don't know what's happened to cause this as I only got him at 8.5 months, and he'd been in 2 homes and 3 foster homes by then. He's a brave little chap really, he said hello to a horse last week! He will have the same scared reaction if you show him a pen in your hand, and I have no idea why.

Hi Drifter!
Just on the clicker training - the order you have been doing it in is wrong, you need to click first, then follow it up with the treat, the 'click' needs to be a predictor for the dog that the treat will follow. The 'click' sound is a way of telling the dog that what they were doing when they heard the click was the required behaviour and that earns them the treat. Before you use a clicker for training it needs to be conditioned or 'charged' - i.e you need to do lots of click/treat repetitions, as the sound won't mean anything to the dog initially.
For Charlie, because you have been treating first and then clicking, the treats have now taken on a bad association as they signal the click, which he is afraid of, will follow!

As Charlie has an aversion to the sound of the clicker you can just use your voice, pick a marker word and use it in the same way as the clicker, for example I use the marker word 'Yes!'. You condition it the same way as the clicker, i.e lots of 'Yes!' followed by treat repetitions.
Good Luck! Let us know how you get on

I've got to admit that my pup didn't get on with clicker training at all either. all the other puppy owners clicking their clickers all around him just confused him hugely. I abandoned the clicker training classes because of this, he really couldn't differentiate between my click and all the other clicks going on around him so it was just a constant noise and meant nothing to him. (and also because the constant giving food treats after clicking from me caused my baby puppy to be sick in the car on the way home, giving him a fear of even getting into the car which persists to this day).

I'm just wondering whether Charlie has got similarly confused and when he hears the click sound panics and thinks OMG what am I supposed to be doing.

Caryll's suggestion is good and usually works

As for the clicker noise and pen, it's quite possible that they remind him of something that caused fear in a previous home. Sounds awful, but some people use shocker pens to discipline dogs - that would explain the fear of the click and the pen.

sab44 wrote:Hi Drifter!
Just on the clicker training - the order you have been doing it in is wrong, you need to click first, then follow it up with the treat, the 'click' needs to be a predictor for the dog that the treat will follow. The 'click' sound is a way of telling the dog that what they were doing when they heard the click was the required behaviour and that earns them the treat.

The original poster was referring to the conditioning stage, I believe. It doesn't matter which order it comes in there, provided a reward is associated.

It is the conditioning stage yes, thanks! And looking back on what I wrote I realised that I had written it the wrong way around, I did click then treat. Actually I think I tried both ways. Either way he's rather freaked out by it, so I didn't go further than about 5 clicks - I felt so mean when he reacted like that. Poor little lad.

I think I may try it out in the open air one time, and see if maybe it's the echoing of the click which isn't helping. I'll offer him a different treat too so it doesn't lessen the magic recall abilities of cheese.

The idea of him being hurt in the past makes me rage inside. This pup is wonderful, even when he's being a puppy-pillock! I'd go and give him a 2am hug but basket time is HIS time and he just raises an eyebrow at me and sighs - he likes his 40 winks!

Bless him! At least you know he's alright with you.

If clicker training isn't possible, you could always try voice instead.

Oooh, there's been a little clicker breakthrough today! I was showing someone else the pen reaction, the sight and sound of it, because I'm the only one who has seen it and I wanted a second pair of eyes.

Same reaction with the pen, he immediately acted like he was being punished. I then got the soft clicker out and he reacted much much better, even a little intrigued on occasion! He was getting praised and cuddled while I randomly clicked an in the end he even wondered what the cat was doing instead of cowering!!

I don't know what's happened, it's been about 10 days since we last tried it. Maybe he's bonding with me and trusting me more?

I'm going to make the clicker a regular sound in the house, while I'm watching tv, cooking dinner etc etc until he feels calm enough to just flick his ears at it. Lots of cuddles and happy voice tones while I'm doing it. THEN I'll see about associating the click with a treat.

I am SO proud of my little chunk tonight!!

Well done

Well done Charlie

Eleanor wrote:Caryll's suggestion is good and usually works

As for the clicker noise and pen, it's quite possible that they remind him of something that caused fear in a previous home. Sounds awful, but some people use shocker pens to discipline dogs - that would explain the fear of the click and the pen.

sab44 wrote:Hi Drifter!
Just on the clicker training - the order you have been doing it in is wrong, you need to click first, then follow it up with the treat, the 'click' needs to be a predictor for the dog that the treat will follow. The 'click' sound is a way of telling the dog that what they were doing when they heard the click was the required behaviour and that earns them the treat.

The original poster was referring to the conditioning stage, I believe. :)It doesn't matter which order it comes in there, provided a reward is associated.

Hi Eleanor, I hate disagreeing with people but I'm afraid I would have to disagree with your last comment, the order does matter, the point of using the clicker (or marker word) is that is serves as a bridge between the animals response and the delivery of the primary reinforcement (e.g. the food reward), once properly conditioned, it lets the animal know that what they were doing at the precise moment they heard the marker has earned them the primary reinforcer, and means that if we can't get the reinforcer to them immediately, which is often the case, the animal still knows exactly what behaviour causes the reward to happen. It has to be a predictive relationship, with the marker coming first. If you are going to treat first and then click, then there is no need to use the clicker because you are delivering the primary reinforcer straight away, and the click will not have any significance for the dog anway.

Drifter McFluff wrote:Oooh, there's been a little clicker breakthrough today! I was showing someone else the pen reaction, the sight and sound of it, because I'm the only one who has seen it and I wanted a second pair of eyes.

Same reaction with the pen, he immediately acted like he was being punished. I then got the soft clicker out and he reacted much much better, even a little intrigued on occasion! He was getting praised and cuddled while I randomly clicked an in the end he even wondered what the cat was doing instead of cowering!!

I don't know what's happened, it's been about 10 days since we last tried it. Maybe he's bonding with me and trusting me more?

I'm going to make the clicker a regular sound in the house, while I'm watching tv, cooking dinner etc etc until he feels calm enough to just flick his ears at it. Lots of cuddles and happy voice tones while I'm doing it. THEN I'll see about associating the click with a treat.

I am SO proud of my little chunk tonight!!

Ah that's brilliant to hear :)it's great when they have a breakthrough like that!

Great to hear Charlie is coming around to it!

Well done Charlie, I am sure it will soon "click" excuse the pun:D