Collar/Lead connection safety

First topic message reminder :

Hi, my son has just come back home in tears after being thoroughly frightened. He was walking Kuchar along the road on leather collar and short leather lead, when suddenly the connection broke and Kuchar dashed across the road in front of cars. Fortunately, no -one was injured.

I have experienced the collar/lead connection coming adrift previously and put it down to Kuch jumping around and it just being "one of those things", however, I bought a new lead just in case. This was with the new lead.

Collar is from PAH and has the normal D-ring for attaching the lead. Both leads were from PAH and have the normal click to open attachment. This time, my son wonders whether Kuchar shaking himself (it is raining) might have loosened the connection. So far - touch wood - neither of us have experienced this when using the extending lead (from PAH) with the same sort of attachment on the same collar, even when Kuch has run full pelt at birds and nearly pulled us off our legs.

Has anyone else experienced this, and more importantly can anyone recommend a collar and lead that will not part company under any circumstances?

Well yes he does pull, like most staffies, but the lead doesn't go out of my hand ie I don't let go. And even if the pull happens by remote chance to be at the exact point where the thumb catch would release the lead, I don't think that the thumb catch SHOULD release the lead.

I've had this happen twice with two separate leads and I really can't feel that I can trust this particular mechanism any more.

I need to find another solution.

We have loves ezy-dogs collars and leads. They hold up very well to a staffy and you can get wider collars from them as well. I have both widths and a lead with a fantastic handle for my girl who pulls.

I too only have hand made to order, british made heavy duty stuff for Max .. when the cars and trucks are wizzing by and he is pulling like his life depeneded on it , I need to know nothing is going to go pop!

He has quite an array of h/duty collars, harness's, leads etc ... though I must say he also has a h/duty extender aswell, which has lasted very well (we use it when we cant let him off)

new Staffy owner wrote:Well yes he does pull, like most staffies, but the lead doesn't go out of my hand ie I don't let go. And even if the pull happens by remote chance to be at the exact point where the thumb catch would release the lead, I don't think that the thumb catch SHOULD release the lead.

I've had this happen twice with two separate leads and I really can't feel that I can trust this particular mechanism any more.

I need to find another solution.

What about a spring gate or screw gate carabiner , I looked into these before but have to confess although it is a perfect solution (as long as you don't buy cheap ) then I have not yet found one of a reasonable size. Has to be said if a climber can trust his life with it hanging off a mountain on a rope , then I'm sure it will do the job for what we want

Dave wrote:

new Staffy owner wrote:Well yes he does pull, like most staffies, but the lead doesn't go out of my hand ie I don't let go. And even if the pull happens by remote chance to be at the exact point where the thumb catch would release the lead, I don't think that the thumb catch SHOULD release the lead.

I've had this happen twice with two separate leads and I really can't feel that I can trust this particular mechanism any more.

I need to find another solution.

What about a spring gate or screw gate carabiner , I looked into these before but have to confess although it is a perfect solution (as long as you don't buy cheap ) then I have not yet found one of a reasonable size. Has to be said if a climber can trust his life with it hanging off a mountain on a rope , then I'm sure it will do the job for what we want

A biner is deffo stronger than any dog can pull in any circumstance (I have a box full ) .. though they arnt really practicle for use with leads and collars because of there size and design ... though I do use old climbing stuff to secure Max to things when on hol like pub table legs if we're out for a meal and stuff

I know you can buy small ones but they tend to be more like novelty key ring devices and I would never trust something like that , I will continue my search though pretty sure someone somewhere will make smaller high quality ones not specifically aimed at mountaineers

Dave wrote:I know you can buy small ones but they tend to be more like novelty key ring devices and I would never trust something like that , I will continue my search though pretty sure someone somewhere will make smaller high quality ones not specifically aimed at mountaineers

Oh there is mate, the smallest full strength biner on my rack is the DMM Phantom ... amazing little bit of engineering ... tho for attaching to a lead/collar, you would need a screwgate, and there arnt really any to my knowledge small enough for the job, that are full strength, not just a keyring

http://dmmclimbing.com/products/phantom/

ergo wrote:She did answer but I don't know anyone who holds the lead when walking a powerful dog so that it could slip through the hands as soon as the dog lunges, while some may hold the handle loop, most, me included, thread the hand through to loop & than hold the lead.

Not that it's any of your business, but I do put my hand through the loop. The loop I make by clipping one end of the lead to a ring a few inches down. It's strong and it's safe.

Having said that, I see plenty of people just holding the end of the lead, so if you haven't seen any, you ain't bin around much.

ergo wrote:
I walk 4 at a time like this using brace leads.

Well, bully for you. Aren't you the clever one?

why wouldn't one of these be up to the job Andy , can't really be accidentally released and the curve at the bottom is surely deep enough if you did press it by accident as you would have to sort of juggle it out of the ring if you know what I mean ?? I'd be happy to use something like this. I wanted something nice and secure for next year when we start running the dogs with the bikes (late next year for Tommy or maybe just Tilly and wait till 2014 for Tommy)

Andy wrote:Oh there is mate, the smallest full strength biner on my rack is the DMM Phantom ... amazing little bit of engineering ... tho for attaching to a lead/collar, you would need a screwgate, and there arnt really any to my knowledge small enough for the job, that are full strength, not just a keyring

http://dmmclimbing.com/products/phantom/

I know a few people who use these, but I've got to say that I've never had a problem with the clips on the good quality leads. The s*it quality ones would come off in a minute, but the two I have now are plenty strong enough. If I did weight pulling with Dempsey (like he'd put up with that! ) it would be different, the clip would have to be a lot stronger.

ergo wrote:

She did answer but I don't know anyone who holds the lead when walking a powerful dog so that it could slip through the hands as soon as the dog lunges, while some may hold the handle loop, most, me included, thread the hand through to loop & than hold the lead.

I walk 4 at a time like this using brace leads.

Actually, holding the lead that way is dangerous. Although it helps to prevent the owner dropping the lead, it can also break your wrist (sometimes elbow and shoulder, as well) and cause severe burns or restricted circulation. Get down from your high horse and at least make an attempt to understand the other side of the story before you judge.

Dave wrote:why wouldn't one of these be up to the job Andy , can't really be accidentally released and the curve at the bottom is surely deep enough if you did press it by accident as you would have to sort of juggle it out of the ring if you know what I mean ?? I'd be happy to use something like this. I wanted something nice and secure for next year when we start running the dogs with the bikes (late next year for Tommy or maybe just Tilly and wait till 2014 for Tommy)

It would deffo be up to the job mate, but straight gates, and wire gates can open when moved around in differant directions, thats why in climbing the rule of thumb is that if the biner is "likley" to come into contact with anything you should use a screwgate .... I used an old wire gate to attach Max to the subframe of a caravan while sat outside on hol once, not long after, he nudged my arm for a stroke, and I realised he was free ... never again

We have used this kind of thing on Rockys lead for when he is attached to a long line. It is a Keylock Screwgate Carabiner which has a screw mechanisism to lock it into place.

Andy wrote:

Dave wrote:why wouldn't one of these be up to the job Andy , can't really be accidentally released and the curve at the bottom is surely deep enough if you did press it by accident as you would have to sort of juggle it out of the ring if you know what I mean ?? I'd be happy to use something like this. I wanted something nice and secure for next year when we start running the dogs with the bikes (late next year for Tommy or maybe just Tilly and wait till 2014 for Tommy)

It would deffo be up to the job mate, but straight gates, and wire gates can open when moved around in differant directions, thats why in climbing the rule of thumb is that if the biner is "likley" to come into contact with anything you should use a screwgate .... I used an old wire gate to attach Max to the subframe of a caravan while sat outside on hol once, not long after, he nudged my arm for a stroke, and I realised he was free ... never again

Fair enough mate , yours is the voice of experience so now I need a small screw gate carabiner

I don't use a carabiner on their leads per say BUT I have a walking/running belt which has a locking carabiner on that I thread their leads through and walk both on it. They have also been taught to pull up front when running and it never comes undone or showing any signs of wear

We use a thick leather collar and also a harness which is leather. Miley is 3 and a half stone and when she pulls she can pull hard. Never experienced the lead becoming detatched though. We use a strong nylon tape type lead

kathytake2 wrote:We have used this kind of thing on Rockys lead for when he is attached to a long line. It is a Keylock Screwgate Carabiner which has a screw mechanisism to lock it into place.

I know this isnt a climbing gear thread .. but while we're on about biners, they are brilliant peices of engineering, and I use them for all sorts of things .. including Max's pulling .. tho without a screw gate, I wouldnt gamble on Max's safety having experienced it once as I mentioned!

There are some really strong hand made leads etc out there, that wont break the bank, and have mega h/duty clasps and multi layer webbing

The same thing happened to me with a PAH lead, one of the chain ones with the trigger hook. the girls were playing up , then all of a sudden Lola was legging it across the road it was such a shock. I got it replaced no prob though.

Think we have the same leads , the ones with a choice of leather or nylon padded handle ??

Have to say if that happened I wouldn't be wanting a replacement

Sorry, this has never happen to me, but i do fear it happening. Kenny also pulls alot. I've just got a collar and Harness from Julius K9. very strong and he doesnt pull so much

http://www.julius-k9.com/

You've all been SO helpful.

It occurred to me in the middle of the night (well early this morning) that a carabiner is what I need, and the one Kathy shows looks just the job. But how to attach the lead to it - do I get my saddler to sew it on?

new Staffy owner wrote: But how to attach the lead to it - do I get my saddler to sew it on?

Exactly !! ... this is what you need ... I gurantee your dog wont break it

I have been forced off line since sunday by my **** internet connection so haven't been able to respond further.

However, since last sunday I took Kuchar on his night-time walk (with flashing light!) , it was raining and he shook himself and the lead (the extending one, which I had locked) came off in front of my eyes. Fortunately I called him immediately with reward of cooked liver, and I got hold of his collar.

Since then I have attached a "fail to safety" additional nylon strap from the D ring on his collar to the trigger hook (behind the main attachment to the lead). Off the dog, I shook and shook the collar and lead as the dog might shake, and to my consternation the collar and lead parted company, but my DIY fail-safe device still held. It's the shaking, not the pulling, that has caused this malfunction - on THREE leads.

I'm not trusting my DIY belt and braces though, and will get caribiners as soon as I possibly can.

Why oh why do 99.99% of leads come with this trigger hook connection, which are patently unsafe.

.... in all my years as a dog and bull breed ownership, I have never had a lead clip undo itself no matter what the dog does .... though as I said, I have had a carabiner open when its being used to secure a dog .. and not for the purpose it was meant for !!!

but if you use a locking biner, it should be fine ... still cant quite understand why you dont just get a decent lead like the one in the pics above .. but hey, its your choice

new Staffy owner wrote:
Why oh why do 99.99% of leads come with this trigger hook connection, which are patently unsafe.

Seriously, not all of them are unsafe! I've never had a problem with mine. The only problem I had was with a lead that came free with a magazine & that parted company with itself with 24 hours!

The trigger hook connection is only unsafe if it's poor quality. That's why I tend to pay a bit more for mine - I have two that have lasted 2 and 3 years so far (I have to have two because Dempsey gets them wet whenever possible!), they're used every day, three times a day minimum & are still strong & safe.

I prefer a harness for a dog that pulls. I use Rogz for Dogz and have no problem with it.

Yes I did consider a lead attachment like the one in your photos (for which, thank you!) but I've been so un-nerved by those other leads coming off that I thought that a carabiner would be the perfect answer. Your story of one coming undone though is frightening - I wonder what a mountaineer would have said if it happened to him (just before he hit the bottom )

Thank you all for your help and advice.

that's the thing nothing is fool proof and 100% guaranteed to not undo, but the better the quality the less likely it is, what ever connection you decide on

new Staffy owner wrote: I wonder what a mountaineer would have said if it happened to him (just before he hit the bottom )

Thats my point, they dont come undone while being used for climbing (there intended use) .. they are specifically designed to be as light as poss, yet as strong as steel when loaded in the right direction .. its when they are moved around under load and pulled from differant angles you run the risk of the rope(lead) working the gate open .. but like I said, a screwgate wont ever come open when done up, but they are a little big and awkward for use with a lead IMO

why not use a harness and a collar and get one of them double ended leads ,, to be sure to be sure

Yeah Dave, I have thought of harness and collar, and two leads, and welding myself to the dog ....

I like the idea of a screwgate, just worried by what Andy says that they're a bit too big.

I'm getting my nephew's advice on this (he's a mountaineer).

Update - now I have my internet connection back after 3 looooong weeks (still not sure how long it will last!).

Got some screwgate carabiners from a camping shop - not strong enough for mountaineers and it said so on the packet but what do you expect for £2.99 for 3. Tested them by a tug of war between my massive son and myself (not quite so massive but pretty determined) and now fitted to Kuchar's leads. So far, so good! At least the fastening won't (shouldn't) spring open unexpectedly.

Thank you all once again for your help, everyone.