Why did the KC alter staffies

I asked this question before,Why has the kc reduced the size of staffies ,originaly staffies were 18 " at the shoulder and over 20 Kilos .

i'm glad they did becasue if they stay at the height it's very likely they staffy would be on the ban list today.

they only reduse the height to stop some breeder breeding them to tall.

No idea mate, I've always preferred the older, more athletically built staffys .. more like the smaller APBT size

I actually looked very hard to find Max because of his sire, and his mom being a lovely slightly leggy girl

someone post a lot of old photo a while and they look like staffy of today bit a 1" taller...

It wasn't actually the KC that changed the standards it was the breed club themselves.

It wasn't actually the KC that changed the standards it was the breed club themselves.

Why did the breed club do it? are they trying to breed mini staffies, having seen old pics of staffies they look really good

I think the original standard was 15 half inchs up to 18. I think it was changed to stop them getting too tall

I seen some really small staffy's at quite a few shows, are breeders trying to breed smaller? Some looked smaller than 14 inchs.

harlou wrote:Why did the breed club do it? are they trying to breed mini staffies, having seen old pics of staffies they look really good

staffie aren't meant to be the size of pitbulls the good line was around 16 to 17" from the off

i'm going port this again

Steve wrote:i'm glad they did becasue if they stay at the height it's very likely they staffy would be on the ban list today.

if they didn't stop breeder breeding them tall staffordshire bull terrier would of been place on the ban list with the pitbull, amstaff so it was the right thing to do to stop bad breeding

I prefer the smaller ones tbh! I like pitbulls don't get me wrong but staffies that are too big look too tryhard. just get a pitbull lol

Dexter is a small staffie and I prefer that too (bias aside!) short and cuddly and very unlikely to be mistaken for a pit type

I like big dogs, but Staffs are one of the few small-ish breeds of dogs that I like, so I don't mind either way. Loki's already over 18" though, so I guess it's a good thing the height wasn't a big deal

I prefer the smaller chunky Staffy's myself , i don't go to dog shows so ive not seen one under 14 inch, to be honest i would not want them smaller than 14 inch .

The original standard was set at 15" to 18", this was the lower limit (for bitches) and the upper limit (for dogs). However, human nature as it is, dogs were being bred to not only exceed the 18" but were reaching 21" and 22"!

Realistically, no matter what height the standard says, people will try to exceed it unless there are measurements taken at every show (something the Staffordshire Bull Terrier Breed Council has vehemently resisted!). So they reduced the limits & split them between dogs & bitches, knowing that they would still be exceeded, but at least not to extremes!

Personally I would hate the breed to get to the stage of being 'normal' at 20" or more! I would also hate to see them 'normally' under 14". Don't forget that the weight limit for staffords even in 1935 was 38lb, so a 21" stafford would be very inferior, strengthwise, if it was still only 38lb! The weight limit has never changed significantly.

What would you prefer? An 18" or 21" stafford weighing 38lb or a 16" stafford weighing 38lb?

A 16" stafford weighing 38lb for me Caryll i just loves them chunky

Chunky little monkeys for me too Caryll imo It's the way I grew up seeing them and so it's my go to image of a staff. That is not to say that the taller staffies aren't beautiful, I would still steal everybodys happily

I have nothing against a staff being an inch or two taller than the standard, but 18" is, for me, the absolute maximum to keep it a staff!

My own Bandit was 17" and about 42lb but he was very much in proportion. Even then, some judges thought he was too tall.

If you increase the height, you have to increase the weight, and then you are looking at a pitbull.

Is this why so many have wound up seized for a length of time while they are checked for type etc? Because they have been bred to be overly tall and this changes their overall look?

Exactly. If they are tall but within the weight, they are not typical. If they are tall & balanced they will be over the weight.

I'm lucky cus Max has topped out at exactly the height and weight I kinda always wanted in a staffy (18" and 46Ibs .. LEAN!) he couldnt have been closer to what I wanted if I'd ordered him from Amazon

I'm not disagreeing with you, Andy, Max is a beauty! But he's outside the standard. Although that in itself isn't a problem, limits have to be set to stop extremes, which is what was happening.

The fact remains that over about 17"/18" a stafford stops being a stafford & becomes a pitbull.

Caryll wrote:I'm not disagreeing with you, Andy, Max is a beauty! But he's outside the standard. Although that in itself isn't a problem, limits have to be set to stop extremes, which is what was happening.

The fact remains that over about 17"/18" a stafford stops being a stafford & becomes a pitbull.

Oh yeah I know that Caryll and I'm not disagreeing, I just mean I'm really not too fussed about the show standard size/weight .. I'm more about the overall build, athletasism, and physical ability of the breed, and I think around 18" is just about right if it comes with the correct build of course .. but thats my opinion, and obviously not to say the more standard size isnt also just as gorgeous, I just prefer a couple more inches on them than you see in the show ring

Andy , you don't like little chubbies and Tilly has just read this , she's gutted

Dave wrote:Andy , you don't like little chubbies and Tilly has just read this , she's gutted

... Tilly is gorgeous mate .. and Max thought so if ya remember

Andy wrote:

Caryll wrote:I'm not disagreeing with you, Andy, Max is a beauty! But he's outside the standard. Although that in itself isn't a problem, limits have to be set to stop extremes, which is what was happening.

The fact remains that over about 17"/18" a stafford stops being a stafford & becomes a pitbull.

Oh yeah I know that Caryll and I'm not disagreeing, I just mean I'm really not too fussed about the show standard size/weight .. I'm more about the overall build, athletasism, and physical ability of the breed, and I think around 18" is just about right if it comes with the correct build of course .. but thats my opinion, and obviously not to say the more standard size isnt also just as gorgeous, I just prefer a couple more inches on them than you see in the show ring

Actually, I've got to say that I agree - I prefer the taller, more athletic staff. But as I said, if you increase the height/weight ratio it will be exceeded by unscrupulous/irresponsible breeders & we'll have pitbulls instead of staffords!

Andy wrote:No idea mate, I've always preferred the older, more athletically built staffys .. more like the smaller APBT size

I actually looked very hard to find Max because of his sire, and his mom being a lovely slightly leggy girl

this! i prefer the bigger staff to the smaller one of today

the original standard stated ''about '' 15''-18''....weight 38lbs.....this was in dispute from the get go.
after the war the kc was reviewing all standards & required more concise standards to be submitted.
this time all ''interested parties'' had a chance to debate & vote.....16/38 was the outcome from what by all accounts was a pretty fiery meeting. this was considered the ideal physique for the original function. it was probably a compromise between the three similar but different ''types'' claiming to be the real deal.
the standard was amended. it was 1948. which was 64 years ago. i doubt many here were even alive when the original standard was in place.
the K.C. added ''desirable'', without consultation with the breed club, to the height component in 1987 & the problems the staffy are experiencing today had been set in motion..
it would have been far more sensible to add the ''desirable'' bit to the weight given the breed is now a companion dog.
i doubt many, if any, kc registered show quality male staffies of 16'' & in excellent condition, would be at or under 38lb.

What I love about an 18" dog compared to a shorter, stockier example, is their effortless ease of movement, while retaining all the power .. when I see Max run at speed, it never cease's to amaze me just how quick he can be for such a powerful little dog .. and also his stamina, its quite something

I agree, Andy. As I said, I prefer the taller, more 'terrier' type - Bandit was one of them!

But I would resist all attempts at increasing the height/weight ratio in the standard because it would ruin the breed - people would automatically breed to the maximum & consequently over it. We would end up with a dog that looks no different to the APBT. That, to me, would not be a Stafford!

Andy wrote:

Dave wrote:Andy , you don't like little chubbies and Tilly has just read this , she's gutted

... Tilly is gorgeous mate .. and Max thought so if ya remember

Don't think her minder saw it the same way though He's still laid on his bed thinking .....1 day mate

Caryll wrote:I agree, Andy. As I said, I prefer the taller, more 'terrier' type - Bandit was one of them!

But I would resist all attempts at increasing the height/weight ratio in the standard because it would ruin the breed - people would automatically breed to the maximum & consequently over it. We would end up with a dog that looks no different to the APBT. That, to me, would not be a Stafford!

Agreed ..

This is a pic of Max at about 16mths or so, not the most flattering shot of him, and he has developed quite a bit more since then, but I like the way he looks fit, strong, and ready for anything .. tho to me, he still looks every bit a stafford, and couldnt be confused with an APBT ... but then, I know the differance at 100yrds with one eye closed

Andy wrote:What I love about an 18" dog compared to a shorter, stockier example, is their effortless ease of movement, while retaining all the power .. when I see Max run at speed, it never cease's to amaze me just how quick he can be for such a powerful little dog .. and also his stamina, its quite something

Have you posted any pics of Max lately? He looks like a beauty.

One thing I have noticed is the 17 inch dog is a lot more prevalent than the 15inch dog. I think the standard should be 15-17 inch and up to 44 lbs fir dog. this is more representative of the original staffords, what is more common today and arguably what is more popular. (just my opinion)

You read my mind. To me that's the perfect stafford.

Harley wrote:
One thing I have noticed is the 17 inch dog is a lot more prevalent than the 15inch dog. I think the standard should be 15-17 inch and up to 44 lbs fir dog. this is more representative of the original staffords, what is more common today and arguably what is more popular. (just my opinion)

Although, aesthetically, I agree with you, if the standard was changed people would still breed bigger than the allowable height/weight. That's the problem - we would end up with much bigger dogs that would no longer be 'staffords'.

I totally understand your point. Increasing the standard height would def see heights creeping up. But does this really matter? Responsible breeders will always breed to standard and anything outside the standard will be deemed so. I just don't like the fact that a balanced 15inch dog is considered superior to a balanced 17 inch dog.

Harley wrote:I totally understand your point. Increasing the standard height would def see heights creeping up. But does this really matter? Responsible breeders will always breed to standard and anything outside the standard will be deemed so. I just don't like the fact that a balanced 15inch dog is considered superior to a balanced 17 inch dog.

if you want a taller dog why not just buy a american staffordshire terrier

Steve wrote:

Harley wrote:I totally understand your point. Increasing the standard height would def see heights creeping up. But does this really matter? Responsible breeders will always breed to standard and anything outside the standard will be deemed so. I just don't like the fact that a balanced 15inch dog is considered superior to a balanced 17 inch dog.

if you want a taller dog why not just buy a american staffordshire terrier

I think American staffs are slightly too big for my liking. A 17 inch 25kg staff is the ideal height weight in my eyes. Again, my personal opinion.

you can get 17" staffy

americna staffy are 17 to 19"

Harley wrote:I totally understand your point. Increasing the standard height would def see heights creeping up. But does this really matter? Responsible breeders will always breed to standard and anything outside the standard will be deemed so. I just don't like the fact that a balanced 15inch dog is considered superior to a balanced 17 inch dog.

An example. A litter is bred from two top quality, top sized dogs. One particular dog/bitch from the litter is absolutely outstanding, but he/she is over standard. Maybe not by much, but over just the same. So he/she is used at stud/brood and produces more first class pups, but a couple or so of these are also over standard & are used for breeding....etc etc etc.

And don't think that slightly oversized dogs are passed over in the show ring - they're not. Any judge worth his salt will look at height after he has looked at overall quality. If a slightly oversized dog (ie 17") is a good example of the breed he will be placed accordingly. If a dog is too far over the desired height/weight of course it won't be picked, because it isn't a stafford according to the breed standard! And you have to have a standard (a written description of what makes a dog a member of a certain breed) or you don't have a breed!

Harley's at 17 inches at the moment, at nearly 8 months. Hope he dosnt grow any taller LOL.

Steve wrote:americna staffy are 17 to 19"

I have never seen a 17 inch Amstaff. Most males I have seen have been 20inch plus and way over 30kg. Perhaps their heights and weights are creeping up just like staffs.

Steve wrote:americna staffy are 17 to 19"

Are you talking about American Staffordshire Terriers, or Staffordshire Bull Terriers in America?

Harley wrote:

Steve wrote:americna staffy are 17 to 19"

I have never seen a 17 inch Amstaff. Most males I have seen have been 20inch plus and way over 30kg. Perhaps their heights and weights are creeping up just like staffs.

that over standard for amstaffy

Caryll wrote:

Steve wrote:americna staffy are 17 to 19"

Are you talking about American Staffordshire Terriers, or Staffordshire Bull Terriers in America?

amstaffy caryll

OK, I got a bit lost there!

The AKC standard for AmStaffs states...
Terrier Group; AKC recognized in 1936.
Ranging in size from 17 to 19 inches tall at the shoulder.
General purpose dog.
The American Kennel Club, Inc.

So there is room for a 17" AmStaff, although there probably aren't that many of them.

Steve wrote:

Harley wrote:

Steve wrote:americna staffy are 17 to 19"

I have never seen a 17 inch Amstaff. Most males I have seen have been 20inch plus and way over 30kg. Perhaps their heights and weights are creeping up just like staffs.

that over standard for amstaffy

Check out this Aussie Amstaff breeder. Boasting they have big dogs,

http://www.diamondcrosskennels.com/Males/index.html

There dogs are all way over 23 inches and around 40kg. I think this is the way Amstaffs are headed (here in oz at least). I don't think you would readily find a 17 inch 25kg Amstaff in Aus. On the other hand most staffys are around this size, 16-17 inches and 20-25kg.

Harley wrote:

Steve wrote:

Harley wrote:

Steve wrote:americna staffy are 17 to 19"

I have never seen a 17 inch Amstaff. Most males I have seen have been 20inch plus and way over 30kg. Perhaps their heights and weights are creeping up just like staffs.

that over standard for amstaffy

Check out this Aussie Amstaff breeder. Boasting they have big dogs,

http://www.diamondcrosskennels.com/Males/index.html

There dogs are all way over 23 inches and around 40kg. I think this is the way Amstaffs are headed (here in oz at least). I don't think you would readily find a 17 inch 25kg Amstaff in Aus. On the other hand most staffys are around this size, 16-17 inches and 20-25kg.

A prime example of what I've been saying - people will always breed over the size - if you then increase the limits the dog will get bigger & bigger until it just isn't that breed any more!