Thinking of switching back to kibble, reluctantly

Hi guys,

I really dont want to have to do this. I just dont feel I am able to give their diet as much time as it needs to be sucessful. Though they look fantastic and are definately healthy enough, it is hard work getting everything ready. I get up at 7am and have to clean any puppy mess, let all the dogs out, feed puppy, check lizards, tidy and feed/water chickens, shower, make-up hair etc and then leave by 8am. I inevitably forget to take dog food out of the freezer or leave it on the side defrosting too long and its ruined. I have also just had my freezer pack in with a months worth of raw in there.... I love feeding my dogs a biologically appropriate food and they are so healthy and teeth look so good. I am reluctant to do it but every day I am out until at least 6pm by the time I have fed and checked horses and by then its impossible to defrost anything by 7:30 (teatime) so they end up getting microwave defrosted meat which cant be healthy.

It suits them though and I dont really want to change just need to try and find a way to make things easier for myself!?! Help! PS, OH isn't great with the diet side of things so I cant really ask him to help out as he will inevitably get it wrong! Sorry guys stressed atm life seems to be taking over I need to be in ten places at once!

You could always try 50/50. Raw in the morning when perhaps you've got a little bit more time (and energy) and kibble in the evening?

If you really don't have the time, though, switch them over (if they'll eat kibble again!), you can only do so much in a day!

Bailey has been on raw for the past 2 weeks and is looking brilliant aswell! A few times I've forgot to defrost anything so have just gave it frozen or sometimes semi-frozen! I know you can give raw food frozen, don't know if its good for every meal for a long time though, maybe someone more experienced can confirm this or not !

Tbh the only reason I don't feed raw is that I just don't have the time! Kibble is fine though! I feel your stress of a morning though! Xx

StuW wrote:Bailey has been on raw for the past 2 weeks and is looking brilliant aswell! A few times I've forgot to defrost anything so have just gave it frozen or sometimes semi-frozen! I know you can give raw food frozen, don't know if its good for every meal for a long time though, maybe someone more experienced can confirm this or not !

frozen food its fine to give even every meal

ella wrote:

StuW wrote:Bailey has been on raw for the past 2 weeks and is looking brilliant aswell! A few times I've forgot to defrost anything so have just gave it frozen or sometimes semi-frozen! I know you can give raw food frozen, don't know if its good for every meal for a long time though, maybe someone more experienced can confirm this or not !

frozen food its fine to give even every meal

That's good to know lol, have seen myself a few times getting up at 3am to get food out to be slightly defrosted haha

I get mine out about 6pm the night before to be fed at 4pm the next day, that's if i'm not giving it frozen

Hi,
I feed Stella Hoeny's Real Dog Food http://honeysrealdogfood.com/ingredients.php
I feed Stella in the evening and when she finishes her dinner I wash the bowl and put it in the fridge with portion for the next day dinner taken out of the freezer. I got so used to it that it's automatic for me now:-)
Sometimes she gets chicken wings and stuff so these I defrost outside the fridge overnight for breakfest.
I hope you will find a solution which will suit you and your dogs ><

Great suggestions guys, problem is my ladys are fussy little buggers. Not really Skibadee she will eat anything shes our 4-legged bin! But with Tali I have only just managed to persuade to start eating any raw offal, fish, tripe and rabbit. She went funny when she was pregnant and wouldn't eat any of those! And would be great if I could fit four bowls in the fridge, think the OH might have something to say about it though! He already moans about bowls of blood by his pasties and chicken carcasses by his beer! haha.

Nosipho wrote:Hi guys,

I really dont want to have to do this. I just dont feel I am able to give their diet as much time as it needs to be sucessful. Though they look fantastic and are definately healthy enough, it is hard work getting everything ready. I get up at 7am and have to clean any puppy mess, let all the dogs out, feed puppy, check lizards, tidy and feed/water chickens, shower, make-up hair etc and then leave by 8am. I inevitably forget to take dog food out of the freezer or leave it on the side defrosting too long and its ruined. I have also just had my freezer pack in with a months worth of raw in there.... I love feeding my dogs a biologically appropriate food and they are so healthy and teeth look so good. I am reluctant to do it but every day I am out until at least 6pm by the time I have fed and checked horses and by then its impossible to defrost anything by 7:30 (teatime) so they end up getting microwave defrosted meat which cant be healthy.

It suits them though and I dont really want to change just need to try and find a way to make things easier for myself!?! Help! PS, OH isn't great with the diet side of things so I cant really ask him to help out as he will inevitably get it wrong! Sorry guys stressed atm life seems to be taking over I need to be in ten places at once!

[b]

Im sure you can skip these two to make time am sure you will still look fine lol
every thing will be great when they invent the 26 hour day

bigwazza wrote:
every thing will be great when they invent the 26 hour day

Yes, but then you'll find another 10 hours of stuff to do in the extra two hours!

Caryll wrote:

bigwazza wrote:
every thing will be great when they invent the 26 hour day

Yes, but then you'll find another 10 hours of stuff to do in the extra two hours!

Ha ha true

Nosipho wrote:Great suggestions guys, problem is my ladys are fussy little buggers. Not really Skibadee she will eat anything shes our 4-legged bin! But with Tali I have only just managed to persuade to start eating any raw offal, fish, tripe and rabbit. She went funny when she was pregnant and wouldn't eat any of those! And would be great if I could fit four bowls in the fridge, think the OH might have something to say about it though! He already moans about bowls of blood by his pasties and chicken carcasses by his beer! haha.

I don't ever bother putting the bowls in the fridge, I put it in a big tub on top of the freezer never in the fridge takes to long to defrost if I want to give it early

ella wrote:

Nosipho wrote:Great suggestions guys, problem is my ladys are fussy little buggers. Not really Skibadee she will eat anything shes our 4-legged bin! But with Tali I have only just managed to persuade to start eating any raw offal, fish, tripe and rabbit. She went funny when she was pregnant and wouldn't eat any of those! And would be great if I could fit four bowls in the fridge, think the OH might have something to say about it though! He already moans about bowls of blood by his pasties and chicken carcasses by his beer! haha.

I don't ever bother putting the bowls in the fridge, I put it in a big tub on top of the freezer never in the fridge takes to long to defrost if I want to give it early

yea im the same never defrost in fridge as like ella says takes a lot longer to thaw
but glad to know you can feed when still frozen

Yep it can keep them busy for longer, it's also really good when it's really warm to

You can mix kibble and raw, I feed mainly kibble but they have raw chicken wings or ribs as well as raw veg. dogs do need veg as well as meat to have a balanced diet. I find a carrot keeps them occupied for a short while but cabbages and cauliflowers take longer for them to get through. I don't give o hole cabbage or cauli and it does make a mess but they keep my dogs entertained as well as giving them them veg they need.

I'm not entirely sure dogs need veg. They can't get anything from veg if its not cooked/pulped and cooking it cooks the nutrients out.

Ella for one doesn't feed her dogs any veg and there perfectly healthy.

Also don't think it's a good idea to mix raw and kibble, unless you mean raw in the morning and kibble at night? As it can cause tummy problems due to the different digestion times of raw/kibble.

No they don't need veg at all, i have never once fed my dogs veggies thats 'cos they are carnivores

Yep definately good to know about feeding frozen. Especially with dustbin-dog as she will literally eat anything. I think I'm going to do as Caryll suggested and feed a mixture, some days when I've forgotten to take out the raw they can have kibbles! Just ordered some fish 4 dogs from their website. got two 15kg bags for £75 but they knock off 10% when you spend over £75! so got it for cheaper, also registered as a breeder and put my litter on their site and they have given me a bag of puppy kibbles. Really pleased now just waiting on my order! Denise you should put your litter on there I was really impressed!

Cyril baby wrote:You can mix kibble and raw, I feed mainly kibble but they have raw chicken wings or ribs as well as raw veg. dogs do need veg as well as meat to have a balanced diet. I find a carrot keeps them occupied for a short while but cabbages and cauliflowers take longer for them to get through. I don't give o hole cabbage or cauli and it does make a mess but they keep my dogs entertained as well as giving them them veg they need.

It takes approx. 4-5 hours for a dog to digest raw meat, and about 8-12 hours to digest commercial dry food. So, if you mix them in the same meal your dog could get digestive problems. It may not, of course, but it's possible.

If you are feeding a raw diet (properly researched) you don't need to include veg. Raw veg is useless anyway as they can't digest it! The only way they can digest vegetables is either cooking (thereby removing most of the goodness) or pulping.

I do occasionally give Dempsey raw carrots & cabbage, but only because he likes them, not because he needs them!

StuW wrote:I'm not entirely sure dogs need veg. They can't get anything from veg if its not cooked/pulped and cooking it cooks the nutrients out.

A lot depends on how you cook the veg but I give veg raw.

In "The Holistic Health Guide" Natural Care for the Whole Dog by Doug Knueven, DVM, CVA,CAC it says:

Most vegetables can and should be part of a dog's diet. A recent study showed that simply adding veggies three Terriers (a breed prone to bladder cancer) reduced the risk of bladder cancer by 70 to 90 percent! Green leafy vegetab les such as spinach, kale, mustard greens, and Swiss chard are especially nutritious (iceberg lettuce has very little nutritional value). Carrots, cauliflower, broccoli, beans and beets should be included as well. Sweet potoatoes and yams are chock full of nutrients and can be included in the diet; white potatoes contain mostly carbohydrates and should be left out. Garlic can be added sparingly - up to one clove per fifty pounds (22.7kg) of body weight per day. This ingredient can aid the dog's immune system and help to stave off fleas. Onions can be toxic in large quantities and should not be fed to your dog.

A variety of fruits, such as apples, lpears,l plums and bananers should make up a small proportion of a dog's ddiet. Grapes and raisins can cause kidney failure in some dogs, so these should ne be included. Apple seeds contain cyanide, a poisonous substance, although aj dog would have to comsume many apples to be at risk. Cherryt, peach and apricot pits contain another toxin called amygdalin and these seeds do pose a threat if fed to dogs. Because all fruits are high in sugar, they should only be a small part of the canine diet.


It does say a little more including to shred the veg before giving it to your dog as their digestive system isn't long enough to digest it in chunks.


This is site that may interest you as well, it is an Excerpt from Mogens Eliasen's book:
"Raw Food For Dogs - the Ultimate Guide for Dog Owners"

http://k9joy.com/RawFoodForDogs/DigestiveSystemExcerpt.pdf

Cyril baby wrote:It does say a little more including to shred the veg before giving it to your dog as their digestive system isn't long enough to digest it in chunks.

Shredding isn't sufficient. It has to be pulped or they can't break down the cellulose.

Cyril baby wrote:http://k9joy.com/RawFoodForDogs/DigestiveSystemExcerpt.pdf

Well, I've only read the first page & there's already a glaring mistake! The author says that humans can't digest raw meat, which is ridiculous! Of course we can, we just prefer not to!

I don't think I'll bother going any further.

I think (from the little I've read) that she bases her raw feeding on the BARF diet which I don't. The BARF includes vegetables (pulped), but the prey model diet doesn't & doesn't need to.

Cyril baby wrote:three Terriers (a breed prone to bladder cancer)

What breed is a 'three terrier'? Also, bladder cancer isn't prevented by eating roughage (ie vegetables) but bowel cancer is.

I'm afraid CB no veg SHOULDN'T and won't be a part of my boys diet, they point blank refuse to eat them as i tried out of curiosity, if you want to feed them 'cos the dog enjoys them, then that's different.

Cyril baby wrote:
http://k9joy.com/RawFoodForDogs/DigestiveSystemExcerpt.pdf

I have to agree with caryll humans certainly can and do digest raw meat, I DO all the time, alot of my diet consists of raw meat and i have never once been ill from it.

I clearly said that that information was taken from the book, "The Holistic Health Guide, Natural Care for the Whole Dog" so no point in attacking me for what is in there.

A lot depends on what is meant by "Shreading", it could be what we call grating or it could be bigger. I don't give my dogs carrots like that, they like them bigger, if they get the chance they take them from my bag before I put them away.

One of my uncles had a dog that wouldn't eat any food given to her, she prefered to catch her own, he lived in the Welsh mountain foothills so there was a lot of food for her to catch and kill. Nell was often seen in the vegable patch helping herself to the veg or the orchard helping herself to the fruit. Nobody taught her to feed herself or what to eat. Many dogs will pick blackberries when they are in season, they only eat the black ones but leave the others, again they are not taught this although some will eat them red.

We don't have to agree with everything we read, in fact we wouldn't be normal if we did, we can still learn even whe we don't agree. We also get other opinions from which we can work through ourselves. There is no point in just reading what we agree with, if we do we never form our own opinions, there are things I have learnt from CM even though I can't stand the man. No matter what site you read it will differ from all the others in some way because it was written by a human, that doesn't mean we can't learn from it, I learn just as much from something that is wrong that I do when it is right, by reading both I can distinguish which is which without someone telling me.

I don't like raw meat but wouldn't say I couldn't eat it, I don't know enough about our digestive system but I do know that raw meat contains a lot of things that could make me seriously ill and in some cases people have died, cooking meat doesn't guarentee it is healthier but it does cut down on the risk.

I am reluctant to agree either way. I understand that dogs dont fully digest raw or even some cooked veg. But as cyril_baby has said above mine do sometimes on occasion seek out fruit, veg or other fibre (such as particular grasses/plants). I am a firm believer in animals (and people) knowing subconciously what we need from our diet and so when my dogs are after something I tend to presume that it because their body is telling them thats what they need. Perhaps they takes something from it on some level of digestion (vitamins/minerals perhaps?) or maybe it is just that they know they need to clean out their digestive tract a little and fibre helps this. I know that canines are developed as carnivores and their biology reflects this but there must be a reason that once or twice a month dogs decide they want some fibre. Perhaps it is just to keep the anal glands clear. Not sure, any ideas?

Cyril baby wrote:I clearly said that that information was taken from the book, "The Holistic Health Guide, Natural Care for the Whole Dog" so no point in attacking me for what is in there.

A lot depends on what is meant by "Shreading", it could be what we call grating or it could be bigger. I don't give my dogs carrots like that, they like them bigger, if they get the chance they take them from my bag before I put them away.

One of my uncles had a dog that wouldn't eat any food given to her, she prefered to catch her own, he lived in the Welsh mountain foothills so there was a lot of food for her to catch and kill. Nell was often seen in the vegable patch helping herself to the veg or the orchard helping herself to the fruit. Nobody taught her to feed herself or what to eat. Many dogs will pick blackberries when they are in season, they only eat the black ones but leave the others, again they are not taught this although some will eat them red.

I don't like raw meat but wouldn't say I couldn't eat it, I don't know enough about our digestive system but I do know that raw meat contains a lot of things that could make me seriously ill and in some cases people have died, cooking meat doesn't guarentee it is healthier but it does cut down on the risk.

I wasn't attacking you, but you put the link up to back what you said about needing to feed vegetables. The small amount I read was seriously flawed.

Shredding just isn't enough to enable a dog to digest veg. If you shred a carrot & give it to a dog, you'll see it come out the same way at the other end! To be of any use to a dog the veg (and to a lesser extent fruit) needs to be cooked or pulped.

Yes, dogs will eat vegetables of their own accord, and I think it's as said, they either just like it, or they feel the need for some fibre to 'clear them out'. All I was saying was that a dog doesn't need veg, although many will eat it because they like it. Don't forget that dogs will eat a variey of things, including paper, material, plastic etc, but that doesn't mean they need it!

I didn't put the link up to reinforce what I was saying, it was put up to help members understand a dog's digestive system better. There are both experienced and very novice owners here as well as many between them, any information needs to be able to be understood by everyone. Maybe I should have put http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/cliented/anatomy/dog_digest.aspx but didn't think the pictures would have been appreciated. I have since found http://www.vetinfo.com/dog-digestive-system.html.

The more information we have the better the decisions we can make for our dogs.

Shredding is the same as what we call grating in some countries, I haven't been able to find anything that says shredding comes out the same way it goes in, do you have a link that says this please?

I don't need a link my two ate a bit of shredded carrot and it came out the same way it went in.

I will never feed veggies to dogs, UNLESS they enjoy and they only get the minimal amount of nutrients from them and i can't be arsed faffing about pulping and blending it.

Like Ella, I don't need links or books to back experience.

Over 40+ years, every time one of my dogs has had shredded/grated (doesn't matter what you call it) veg, it's come out the other end exactly the same as when it went in.

I have tried pulping (pureeing) veg, but the effort & time just doesn't seem worth it for the minimal good they get out of it, and anyway, they prefer it raw in chunks!

Just because it comes out looking like it is the same as it went in doesn't mean nothing has been taken out of it, I have 70 years experience with dogs, most with problems caused by humans and turned them round. Each dog has taught me a lot about dogs, I never stop learning.

I wasn't asking you to back up what you were saying, I was trying to learn more about dogs, at least I do try to learn which you seem to have a prolem with. Just because we have experience doesn't mean we are right, I also try to find out why something worked or didn't work.

For those that come here to learn, sorry, there are some very closed minds on here, these are people who are giving advice to you but are not prepared to help you understand what they are saying.

I have had enough of closed minds, some of the way I have been spoken to is a disgrace just because I think differently, I won't be coming back, please delete my membership, giving advice when your mind is closed is dangerous.

I have 30 years more experience than you but don't think I am right all the time nor do I attack those who think differently to me, swopping experiences and ideas is how we improve our understanding of dogs.

Good bye and I don't check back to see what the replies are so it will be a waste of time replying to this.

As the timing of your post is so close , I'm replying anyway. Sorry you feel so badly about other members of the forum who also have an incredible amount of knowledge about dogs and also from personal experience. It would seem you are not open to debate and alongside advice this is something the forum will encourage as long as it is not too heated or personal , I will ensure admin deal with your request , wish you all the best

Bit of an over reaction does one not think?

No one has attacked you we have all mearly stated our opinions, doesn't matter how many years experience you've had, we can still all say what we feel.

Absolutely. I don't know everything & I don't pretend to.

In what way have you been spoken to disgracefully? Is it because we don't agree with you? Nobody has called you names or rubbished you, just disagreed with you!

So sorry that you are leaving Cyril baby you have given many members loads of help and im sure your going to be missed greatly
When my girl was ill I did loads of research and I joined a cancer forum the people and profesionals on there were amazing and some of the stuff posted opened my eyes tbh. Acccording to the site they advised to cook for your dog cancer takes the nutrients from the dog and to give your dog the best possible immune protection loads of recipies and most had veg and fruits. Ive since fed raw with veg and fruit and dont see what the fuss is about Duke looks great on it a definate thumbs up from me sometimes poo has a few bits but on the whole hes looking fab.
As to raw I had a discusion with my local organic free range sheep farmer on the very subject he works for a private butcher rears the lambs then when they are over a certain weight they go for slaughter and the butcher collects. I was asking about them and he said that the sheep take approx 5-6 month to be of desired weight and not many farms have facilities to do this naturly so added feed is needed to get the lambs up to desired standard and they have to be fed artificial feed that contains hormone enhanced suppliments. Having this conversation made me think about what we feed and do we know that although we prefare to give our dogs the best possible source are we feeding them meat thats full of additives as the supplier for raw must buy from the food chain and the cheaper the nastier.
Im very open to everyones opinion and like reading lincs shame cyril felt bullied for being different

gem wrote:I was asking about them and he said that the sheep take approx 5-6 month to be of desired weight and not many farms have facilities to do this naturly so added feed is needed to get the lambs up to desired standard and they have to be fed artificial feed that contains hormone enhanced suppliments. Having this conversation made me think about what we feed and do we know that although we prefare to give our dogs the best possible source are we feeding them meat thats full of additives as the supplier for raw must buy from the food chain and the cheaper the nastier.
erent

Gem, those hormones will be present in the food chain whether the meat is fed raw or cooked - it makes no difference! And anyway, if he's organic he can't add hormones to the feed.

Fruit & veg is useless to dogs unless it's pulped or cooked. A raw diet isn't just giving a dog raw meat - it must also contain bone & offal.

Caryll wrote:

gem wrote:I was asking about them and he said that the sheep take approx 5-6 month to be of desired weight and not many farms have facilities to do this naturly so added feed is needed to get the lambs up to desired standard and they have to be fed artificial feed that contains hormone enhanced suppliments. Having this conversation made me think about what we feed and do we know that although we prefare to give our dogs the best possible source are we feeding them meat thats full of additives as the supplier for raw must buy from the food chain and the cheaper the nastier.
erent

Gem, those hormones will be present in the food chain whether the meat is fed raw or cooked - it makes no difference! And anyway, if he's organic he can't add hormones to the feed.

Fruit & veg is useless to dogs unless it's pulped or cooked. A raw diet isn't just giving a dog raw meat - it must also contain bone & offal.

When I said cook for your dog I didnt mean cook I meant mixing of raw meat along with veg and fruits they gave recipes to help the dogs imunity whilst dealing with health issues this guy was a veternarian specialist of animal cancer treatments from America and according to him dogs do well on veg and fruit and they can absorb nutrients from them he gave great reveiws for spinich. I forget were the info was but ill try to find it.
Its like anything really there is for and against in everything but none of us are experts and all I know duke is looking great on it .
He also stressed the importance of keeping away of using uneccesary chemicals on your dog eg flee treatments, additives, fertilisers , not good for the dogs immunity.
Thats why I said about our meat and the way its reared we dont have the facilities to rear meat as it should be the organic farmer I mentioned isnt adding to the feed its already there and passed as a food source and legal A lamb would take at least another 3-4 months to gain sufficient weight for slaughter without feeding extra thats added cost to the farmer. We have all seen the chickens that from hatching out are fully grown and on the table after a few weeks host of medical problems full of chemicals again legal and not natural due to demand and keeping costs low do we really know what we are giving our families and our dogs.
Cancer is increasing I know that and at a frightening rate

There's a difference between adding organic farming & farming 'within the law'. Organic means nothing is added, whether legal or not. But the meat you eat is full of chemicals & drugs whether it's cooked or not, so what's the difference in feeding it to dogs & humans? The food you get in drycommercial dog food is still from the main food chain & contains all the bad stuff, plus the rubbishy bits that aren't used in human grade food.

If you want to feed veg, that's fine, I'm not saying don't do it, but your dog will gain very little from it.

Gem?
In ur last post are u trying to suggest that chemically breed chickens etc are wats causing an "increase" in cancer? Cancer isn't increasing its just docs know what it is now, am pretty sure veggies get cancer too. According to the advert 1in3 ppl will get it doesnt matter if u dont smoke drink or go on sunbeds, so a seriously doubt enhanced meat is gonna make a difference to humans or dogs