castration dilemma

Hey all. me again. My boy is over 9 months now and he is not castrated yet. And I dont know what should I do, because he doesnt lift his leg, there is no symptoms of his activity and I hope that later on it would not be worse if he is not castrated. few of my friends who are breeders said that they wont do nothing at the moment but also said that late castration could be more dangerous. have no idea what to do. so i am just waiting what will happen. any opinios. what you did in this situation. thanks.

some pups are late leg lifters due tyo the fact that its an action that is learnt and all down to how many males he see when out walking if you have a pup with an older male you may find he would have coc ked his leg sooner but thats no biggy.
re castration there loads of opinion on that so no solid answer my opinion is 10 months is to early i would let a dog fully grow before the op so for me around 2 years would be me but as i said that only my opinion

I got Meiko done at 15 months and he only lifts his leg to pee probably 5% of the time. Most of the time he squats like a girl, lol

We had Loki to the vet for her last jab and chatted to the vet about spaying and neutering, as neither of our dogs has been done. Our vet has only ever owned staffs and he told us, that althoug there are loads of people suggesting neutering at 6 months, that we should wait.
He saif a lot of bigger dogs, and especially staffies being so muscular should only be done later, because when they reach sexual maturity and receice more hormones, there is a secondary growth phase with regards to muscle, as well as something in their legs and chest. He advised us to wait untill at least 18 months.
Maska is also a slow learner, he only recently started lifting his leg, and it became a bit of a novelty with him, lifting his leg against anything he could possibly find, long after he had nothing left to wee

Rocky came from a rescue centre and was done there at about 12 months old. He didn't start to up his leg properly until he was about 18 months old.

Please see the link below:

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t12763-long-term-health-risks-and-benefits-associated-with-spay-neuter-in-dogs

You'll get so many different opinions. All you can do is read as much as you can & have a good think about it.

My own opinion? I don't neuter at all, unless there is a medical need; eg my first bitch was spayed because she developed pyometra. None of my other dogs have been neutered, and although it was always a pain having to seperate dogs & bitches when the bitch came into season, I coped & they all lived happy lives right into old age.

If you do neuter, though, I would always recommend letting the dog/bitch mature fully first; so with a staff you're probably talking 18 months - 2 years.

P.S. Dempsey's 3 years old, entire, & still doesn't always lift his leg!

thank you for the web link. Chantel thats very useful information, cuz when i asked my vet he told the best is 6 months but i heard many opinions that is better to do that latter. probably I will wait as u said 18 months or when he will start to lift his leg and will see how he will act later. thanks guys.

Chantel wrote:We had Loki to the vet for her last jab and chatted to the vet about spaying and neutering, as neither of our dogs has been done. Our vet has only ever owned staffs and he told us, that althoug there are loads of people suggesting neutering at 6 months, that we should wait.
He saif a lot of bigger dogs, and especially staffies being so muscular should only be done later, because when they reach sexual maturity and receice more hormones, there is a secondary growth phase with regards to muscle, as well as something in their legs and chest. He advised us to wait untill at least 18 months.

Well done to your vet!

Personally i would not think about castration until they are fully matured (about 2 years old) or at all if it doesn't effect their behaviour. If you don't let him mature first, his physique can suffer and you can end up with a leaner staffy.

Personally, I favour neutering in general if there is no intention of showing or reproducing. There are far too many accidents in shelters. I had Tyson done relatively early and the only regret I have is that, had I been more informed (such as with the information on this forum), I would have waited until he was older. That being said, he appears to have developed normally physically and his demeaner has not changed at all. He does lift his leg 99% of the time but squats when lazy.

I don't really think that lifting the leg is entirely due to maturity. Hormones, yes, but adult entire males don't always lift their leg. I think it's more to do with having something to lift it against - if there's nothing there (tree, lamp post, wall etc), then the scent marking just goes on the ground anyway so they squat - well, it's more of a stretch, really.

I don't neuter at all unless medically needed.

To me there are no health benefits to getting him done that would make me choose to, and there are many many benefits to keeping him entire

Caryll wrote:I don't really think that lifting the leg is entirely due to maturity. Hormones, yes, but adult entire males don't always lift their leg. I think it's more to do with having something to lift it against - if there's nothing there (tree, lamp post, wall etc), then the scent marking just goes on the ground anyway so they squat - well, it's more of a stretch, really.

Buster will lift his leg no matter where he is, even in the middle of a field! He didn't start doing it untill about a month ago though.

Buster is not neutered and I will not be getting him done untill at least 2 years old, and even then I might not bother as he isn't aggressive or anything and wouldn't want to risk changing him. Yes, it can stop unwanted puppies BUT so can keeping a close eye and being responsible. LuLu is currently in season. They are not left alone for a second and any play that looks like it is going to go too far is stopped. If for whatever reason I cannot keep an eye on them they are seperated. Far too many people have "accidental" litters when, IMO, if you are willing to keep two entire dogs then you have to put in the work to keep them apart.

Buster's_Mum wrote:

Caryll wrote:I don't really think that lifting the leg is entirely due to maturity. Hormones, yes, but adult entire males don't always lift their leg. I think it's more to do with having something to lift it against - if there's nothing there (tree, lamp post, wall etc), then the scent marking just goes on the ground anyway so they squat - well, it's more of a stretch, really.

Buster will lift his leg no matter where he is, even in the middle of a field! He didn't start doing it untill about a month ago though.

Oh, yes, some dogs will lift their leg no matter what! But I don't think it's to do with maturity so much as hormones, and hormones come in to play way before full maturity!

Buster's_Mum wrote: Buster is not neutered and I will not be getting him done untill at least 2 years old, and even then I might not bother as he isn't aggressive or anything and wouldn't want to risk changing him. Yes, it can stop unwanted puppies BUT so can keeping a close eye and being responsible. LuLu is currently in season. They are not left alone for a second and any play that looks like it is going to go too far is stopped. If for whatever reason I cannot keep an eye on them they are seperated. Far too many people have "accidental" litters when, IMO, if you are willing to keep two entire dogs then you have to put in the work to keep them apart.

Both mine are not done and my last male was never done
When Skye is in season they are kept appart hard but not impossible
I will not get my boy done till he's mature if I do at all

both my boys are desexed, as in all the research I have ever done there are more health benefits for desexing than not desexing.. .. anyway they squat alot when at home but when they are out and about with new smells and sights they will * their leg! Well Jethro doesn't really * his leg at all now as he falls over now when he does!

See all the research i've done theres more health benefits to keeping entire then neutering!

ella wrote:See all the research i've done theres more health benefits to keeping entire then neutering!

Same here, especially when you add the risks of anaesthetic & surgery.

exactly!

Do a lot of you own reading and research and ask others with real life experience. My vet is always banging on about getting Troy done. When I ask for their reasoning they start talking about it being done in bitches and the benefits..well Troy is male.

The only other points they mentioned was that there appears to be a drop in dog on human attacks since the dangerous dogs act came in as more people were getting their dogs done. He was trying to imply that because more dogs were getting done, there was less attacks on people as if there is some direct relation with getting a dogs ball chopped off and developing aggression.

Secondly, that there is less risk of developing diseases like testicular cancer..which is obvious as to why and a decreased chance of prostate cancer.

After doing my own reasech though, it does not totally eradicate the chances of prostate cancer and getting it done actually triples the % of getting other diseases.

Thirdly he said that dogs are isolated from families and can feel left out. He said this was due to such things as dogs always being on leads and not always being able to be let of to free roam.

Lastly that dogs can just 'turn' and castration could decrease the chances of this happening.

Strangely they never give you a balanced view in my experience. Never any talk of the risk on the operating table, never tell you about the risk of other diseases and they never mentioned anything to do with hormones, what age they should be done, maturity nothing like that...

I get the feeling sometimes that vets go through their degrees and training from 10-20 years ago and as new research is done and things like that, they don't keep up with the times and get stuck into their old ways and not to mention more op's done is more money in the pocket for them.

I am 29 years old but look very young. I think these guys think im a 18 year old kid that knows nothing and they can manipulate.

But of course this is not the attitude of all vets.

So again..do a lot of your own reading!

Totally agree with Gee. Great post

Excellent post from gee.

Gee wrote: My vet is always banging on about getting Troy done.

My vets don't even mention it to me, now.

My vet asked me about it when I took Charlie in for his first jabs, he asked me when I planned to do it and I said not until he's mature. He had no problem with it. I've decided not to get him done at all now because he is perfect and I would hate for it to change him in any way. However, that is my own personal choice, and I have nothing against those who do neuter/spay , they have their reasons for doing so like I have mine for not doing so and theirs are as valid as mine.

We had Bella done as soon as we got her (6 1/2) but Vin is still entire and will be staying that way. He squatted this weekend for a pee for the first time since he was a puppy couldn't believe it he's another one who will * his leg on a cricket pitch

Both my boys done at 6 and 7 months no regrets and completley informed. No ill effects and will do the same again

Hi we got our dog from battersea dogs home and it's their policy not to rehome dogs and cats without neutering first (6months old upwards) Our dog was 16 months when we got hi. And although very healthy when we saw him he developed kennel cough whilst in for his op. he did recover well from his op and the cough but it was a shame the first few weeks he wasn't top notch in health.
That said he's great now, he's not put any weight on, in fact he's quite lean but we are happy he is done as we have met afew bitches in heat and des is very friendly and we can breathe a sigh of relief that he can interact without an accident ;-)
One thing to note, I know two people now whose bitches have come into heat and developed problems ie: false pregnancies, staying in heat and going off food. So although not essential to have a boy done it may be worth if not breeding from a female? But all about choice after all.
The article was really interesting- good to be informed.

Staying in heat is rare - split seasons (mainly the first one) are more common. Even bitches that go off food usually only go off it for a few days, and it's rarely a problem.

Phantom pregnancies are more common, but are usually no more than an inconvenience.

Hi - joining this a bit late I know. When we got Kuchar at 3 months old and went to the vets for all the jabs etc, we were told that castration (for male dogs) is now recommended at 6 months old. Although we have had Dobermans before, we have never had a male dog, but I always learned through word of mouth from doggy acquaintances etc that males should not be neutered until at least after they had started cocking their legs, which seemed to me to more or less coincide with the sexual maturity of females (which I WAS familiar with), in that females should be spayed after their first season ie at about 9 months old.

Our vet advised that castration at 6 months would effectively eliminate such undesirable behaviour such as humping and fighting.

Now, Kuchar is 8 months old and has been cocking his leg for peeing - incidentally not learned from any male dogs of his acquaintance, it seems to have been a natural development - (and yes, scent marking which incidentally my bitches also indulged in) but shows no aggression whatsoever to anyone whether human or canine - he loves everyone and long may this continue, he has gone some way to negating the anti-Staffy prejudice amongst the local community. Nor has he humped anything (yet?) or shown any untoward especial interest in bitches (I'm pretty sure he hasn't come into contact with any in-season bitches). And here's a thing - we met up only today with a lady who has a beautiful well-trained 3 year-old Staffy who is neutered, and she said "be careful, male staffs don't like each other" and her dog's hackles were raised immediately, but Kuchar just wanted to play and didn't recognise any aggression at all.

Anyway, I have investigated early castration of male dogs (of whatever breed) on the internet, and there seems to be a lot of evidence showing that it causes elongation of the bones, an 8x incidence of bone cancer in later life, and maybe worst of all (!) that early castration of puppies causes them not to mature and retain a puppy mentality forever after, which is a horrendous prospect.

So, on balance, I am thinking that Kuchar will retain all his "bits" AT LEAST until he matures both physically and more importantly mentally, unless and until the balance tips in favour of castrating him, through undesirable behaviour.

Any comments would be gratefully received.

new Staffy owner wrote:Hi - joining this a bit late I know. When we got Kuchar at 3 months old and went to the vets for all the jabs etc, we were told that castration (for male dogs) is now recommended at 6 months old. Although we have had Dobermans before, we have never had a male dog, but I always learned through word of mouth from doggy acquaintances etc that males should not be neutered until at least after they had started cocking their legs, which seemed to me to more or less coincide with the sexual maturity of females (which I WAS familiar with), in that females should be spayed after their first season ie at about 9 months old.

Our vet advised that castration at 6 months would effectively eliminate such undesirable behaviour such as humping and fighting.

Now, Kuchar is 8 months old and has been cocking his leg for peeing - incidentally not learned from any male dogs of his acquaintance, it seems to have been a natural development - (and yes, scent marking which incidentally my bitches also indulged in) but shows no aggression whatsoever to anyone whether human or canine - he loves everyone and long may this continue, he has gone some way to negating the anti-Staffy prejudice amongst the local community. Nor has he humped anything (yet?) or shown any untoward especial interest in bitches (I'm pretty sure he hasn't come into contact with any in-season bitches). And here's a thing - we met up only today with a lady who has a beautiful well-trained 3 year-old Staffy who is neutered, and she said "be careful, male staffs don't like each other" and her dog's hackles were raised immediately, but Kuchar just wanted to play and didn't recognise any aggression at all.

Anyway, I have investigated early castration of male dogs (of whatever breed) on the internet, and there seems to be a lot of evidence showing that it causes elongation of the bones, an 8x incidence of bone cancer in later life, and maybe worst of all (!) that early castration of puppies causes them not to mature and retain a puppy mentality forever after, which is a horrendous prospect.

So, on balance, I am thinking that Kuchar will retain all his "bits" AT LEAST until he matures both physically and more importantly mentally, unless and until the balance tips in favour of castrating him, through undesirable behaviour.

Any comments would be gratefully received.

Firstly good for you with researching and not taking a vets word as gospel

Personally i don't neuter full stop. But if you do want to i would always recommend that you wait until at least 18 months to 2 years old

Thank you Ella

I'm thinking now that my little boy won't be castrated at all, unless and until he starts fighting (no signs of it so far) or humping and/or showing signs of sexual frustration.

He DOES display his willy sometimes (especially evident in a Staff with his short coat!) but I think I am correct in thinking that this is a normal response to any excitement (and at 8 months he is either excited about something or asleep) and not a sexual thing. It's a bit embarrassing, especially when amongst non-doggy people who don't understand, but I think I'm also correct in thinking that castration would make no difference to that "problem"?

I have also been encouraged to believe that castration would "calm him down" - is this another myth?

Regarding spaying bitches, my Dobermann bitches were spayed between about 2 and 3 years old, and this was only (despite the obvious nuisance that seasons entail) because they always, but always, had phantom pregnancies after each season which with milk production, nesting etc, always distressed them. Plus of course the threat of pyometra. For the record, spaying them didn't change their individual characters one iota.

new Staffy owner wrote:He DOES display his willy sometimes (especially evident in a Staff with his short coat!) but I think I am correct in thinking that this is a normal response to any excitement (and at 8 months he is either excited about something or asleep) and not a sexual thing. It's a bit embarrassing, especially when amongst non-doggy people who don't understand, but I think I'm also correct in thinking that castration would make no difference to that "problem"?

That's actually quite normal, and the same thing happens to a castrated male.

new Staffy owner wrote:I have also been encouraged to believe that castration would "calm him down" - is this another myth?

Some will say that it calms a male down, but there are mixed opinions. I've never noticed a change in character for the better in a castrated dog. I have, however, seen a dog's character change for the worse after being castrated. It often depends on the dog's age and its temperament before castration.

new Staffy owner wrote:Regarding spaying bitches, my Dobermann bitches were spayed between about 2 and 3 years old, and this was only (despite the obvious nuisance that seasons entail) because they always, but always, had phantom pregnancies after each season which with milk production, nesting etc, always distressed them. Plus of course the threat of pyometra. For the record, spaying them didn't change their individual characters one iota.

Some bitches do get phantoms, and yes, the risk of pyometra is always there in an unspayed bitch. However, pyometra is, in the main, a problem with older bitches so waiting for full maturity before spaying would be the best option - with staffs that's probably about 18 months minimum, 2 years preferably.

Thank you for your input Caryll

We took our Duke for his second jabs today , the vet was a locum he started to bang on about castration fair enough but i have been keeping dogs since i was 8 years old im now in my 50's and i have never had a dog castrated , my dogs were working terriers when i was younger none roamed away and non luckily i suppose were ill with cancer etc .

Now the vet upset me and Gill when he said i would not have a STB without having it castrated, i raised my eyebrows at him and asked to why , he replied Aggression, to say i put him in his place is an understatement, he wilted a bit but said yes but rescue centers are full of Staffys , of course i informed him that the STB had become a chavs or drug dealer's dog but it was because of the way they look and their build not because they are aggressive at all , i told him they end up in rescue because the chavs find out they are not what they think they are .

We agreed to disagree at the end though he did say he didn't think anyone under 35 just be allowed one, his opinion i suppose, i would never say never no to castration but we are going to let Duke grow into an Adult and see how he is , will take it from there .

Good for you mickgill.

Interesting point about the chavs abandonning their Staffs because they "find out they are not what they think they are" - I've not thought of that one. Maybe THAT's why there are so many Staffs in rescue.

I got humped for the first time this morning.... his lipstick was out and everything.

#traumatised

Ooo lovely

LOL

Well I got Troy Feb and he turned 2 in September. He has never shown any signs of agression towards people or other dogs unless the other dog has shown it first or tried to hump him lol

The only issue I have with him really is his greeting of new dogs. He does always try to hump them, male or female. I don't know if it is a dominance thing or what. But after seeing the same dogs over time he stops it.

He will then try on the odd occassion when excited. Other than that, I'd hate for his temperment to change.

Im not anti neutering but im not pro neutering either , i well understand the need in bitches if they are not going to breed and that's fair enough and i know the argument about tumors but i think more dogs get through life without having a tumor than those who get one , as for aggression isn;t that in the mind ? and not down below , i know a good few people who have had male dogs castrated for this reason but have seen no change in their dogs what so ever , nope im letting Duke grow into an Adult ball's an all .

There will always be those are are for and those against neutering, i myself look forward to many more debates with our vet over the coming years, it's a matter of opinion that's all .

Harley wrote:

Good post. I agree and my posts have been along similar lines.

I just believe I have been unfairly targeted because I did mention I neutered at 4 months. I have been saying all along that it is an individual choice based on "unique" circumstances so nobody has the right to make comments like what you did is wrong and sad.

Harley this is the last time and then there will be further warnings issued , you state that there are 2 people that want to get the last word in and here you go again fishing for a ruck by trying to get the last word in !!. I have thoroughly read your other post and you are being ridiculous and paranoid to think people are picking on you because you neutered at 4 months . Any opinions are just opinions end of - this is the final word ok

Its such an emotive subject that i find it hard to post in these threads. Its hard to say something without someone feeling your saying there wrong when in essance your just complimenting the information given out.
One thing i will say with conviction is that dogs are complex creatures...in fact very complex. They differ not only from bread to bread but from dog to dog. As dog owners we are gifted with the companionship of our k9 freinds. We form bonds and become protective as we all want the best for our babies, we wont take ridicule easy as we made "THAT" decision for our dogs well being right? Now think... Do you look down your nose at your dogs best friend in the park if he or she has been neuterd at all? No of course you dont. I thought i knew dogs and then i simply got a female dog which taught me i knew bugger all. All my posts should be taken at simply experiance. As a collective we can give great advice but no one person is a guru on dogs...even the science world hardley understands our domesticated wolves

Dave, you deleted the post that had the shortcut to that article as well, I thought that was a very good article for those considering neutering.

axam102 wrote:Do you look down your nose at your dogs best friend in the park if he or she has been neuterd at all? No of course you dont.

Of course not - never have & never will. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with certain things that I find wrong! Neither does it mean that I have to keep quiet about it.

Harley wrote:Dave, you deleted the post that had the shortcut to that article as well, I thought that was a very good article for those considering neutering.

No, that was me. If you want to post it again, go ahead. I just didn't think the comment you made after it should remain on the thread.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/neuteringmaledogs

For those considering neutering, a good read, written in plain English and in an objective manner.

I agree with Nathan - this subject, which IS an important one after all because once a dog is neutered that's it, there's no going back - has been a topic involving an exchange of opinions which I think has benefited us all, I know I have learned a lot.

But it seems to have got way overheated, with one member in particular being given a warning and as far as I can see he hadn't even posted on this particular thread (although on this subject).

PLEASE can we all calm down, Staffy people, and exchange views without vitriol, for the betterment of our understanding of our dogs?

new Staffy owner wrote:
But it seems to have got way overheated, with one member in particular being given a warning and as far as I can see he hadn't even posted on this particular thread (although on this subject).

The offending posts were there, but have been removed.

new Staffy owner wrote:I agree with Nathan - this subject, which IS an important one after all because once a dog is neutered that's it, there's no going back - has been a topic involving an exchange of opinions which I think has benefited us all, I know I have learned a lot.

But it seems to have got way overheated, with one member in particular being given a warning and as far as I can see he hadn't even posted on this particular thread (although on this subject).

PLEASE can we all calm down, Staffy people, and exchange views without vitriol, for the betterment of our understanding of our dogs?

All good.

Caryll wrote:

axam102 wrote:Do you look down your nose at your dogs best friend in the park if he or she has been neuterd at all? No of course you dont.

Of course not - never have & never will. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with certain things that I find wrong! Neither does it mean that I have to keep quiet about it.

And never do mate...your advice has been a godsend tbh marleys good nature is down to you and me trawling posts i can say that as a fact. This time last year i was about to take in a new pup. I knew i didnt know everything and found my help here. And if im honest it has been you caryll and janey that has got me through the puppyhood of two dogs to a place where im so happy now. Will always respect your advice mate..in fact i look for it.