Feeling quite tearful at the moment......

by Pollyanna Fri Jun 29 2012, 22:40

In some respects Lily has come on really well since we got her, and in others not so good. There are 3 things where I don't seem to be making any headway at all. I could do 3 separate postings but I may as well do the full hit in one go ......

1. Mouthing /nipping and jumping.
She does this at every opportunity, far more than she did in the beginning. We say 'ow' and ignore her for a while and if she does it again we put her out of the room. You can certainly feel her teeth but I can't say that it hurts. However, I have 2 young grandchildren - one is only 16 months and she will not leave him alone - its the ear wash at the very least but I have had to take her away quickly as I can see it developing in something more - and of course she is very heavy and knocks him over. I also have a 5 year old grandson and he is good at turning his back but she will still jump up at him a few times before she gets the message. Its exhausing and far easier just to put her outside the gate but that isn't getting her used to them and she just sits there and barks and then I have to deal with that. I find it exhausting as I am constantly watching and worrying and I know all dogs have to be watched but I can't take my eyes away for a moment.

2. Wood.
She has not eaten the indoor furniture although she has had a go at the cane furniture in the conserviatory which I only bought two months before I got her. But she turns into some wood maniac when out in the garden. She finds it all over the place, she digs it up and if she can't find it she will chew off roots. The garden is full of half chewed wood. At the moment she is literally gnawing her way through a tree!! She actually eats it too - and she digs holes - bloody big ones. Please don't tell me to get her some interesting things to chew as she has several kongs, stuffed with peanut butter or not, lots of other chew type toys, we play with her a lot, and she is very rarely left on her own. I have sent off for a stag bar as it sort of looks like a bit of a branch and am waiting for that to come.

3. Stalking when approaching dogs
She pulls on the lead with her belly as close to the floor as possible and looks like she is going to attack - must look frightening to other owners. She is more often thatn not OK when she gets to them but she just gives off the wrong message.

At the moment I am doing what any other responsible owner would do - I have opened a bottle of wine, tucked into the secret stash of chocolate and sought the help of my fellow staffie owners. All suggestions would be greatly appreciated - thank you x Smile

by **janey** Fri Jun 29 2012, 22:55

Pollyanna wrote:

At the moment I am doing what any other responsible owner would do - I have opened a bottle of wine, tucked into the secret stash of chocolate and sought the help of my fellow staffie owners. All suggestions would be greatly appreciated - thank you x

This

Hugs hun, not Smile

been there, if I had I would do the same lol Xx

by Guest Fri Jun 29 2012, 23:07

Im sorry im not much help you seem to be doing everything right!

Enjoy the wine though.

by Pollyanna Fri Jun 29 2012, 23:20

Thanks Janey and Hayley - off to bed now, wine gone Sad

Lily is asleep on her chair and looks like butter wouldn't melt - oh well, tomorrow is another day.

by Deebee Fri Jun 29 2012, 23:23

I don't have a Staff yet but I can sympathise wih the stalking problem. My dog used to be extremely friendly with other dog's but after a bad incident with another do she is now fearful of them and has started to stalk some dogs in the park. Our trainer said it can be innocent play but we obviously want her to greet other dog's in a better way too. Really sorry I'm not able to help you but I do send you good luck.

by Guest Sat Jun 30 2012, 01:34

For the niping you are doing the right thing it just takes patience and consistancy from everyone involved I'm afraid. I wouldn't leave him alone with you youngest grandchild just to be safe. Children are closer to the ground so dogs seem to think they are playmates. You could keep a bottle with rocks or screws in it and shake it when he does something wrong.

For chewing you can use Vicks smeared on the furniture to keep it safe. You could also do that outside but it may not be practical. We use a squirt gun on Suki who also loves to eat anything made of wood. When she goes for it we give her a little spray. We also have wooded stick toys that she is allowed to chew.

For stalking you can try either turning the other direction when he does it or not allow interactions with other dogs until he is calmly sitting. If you have a friend with an older dog that is well socialized that would make good practice

by Melwilk47 Sat Jun 30 2012, 05:33

jstaff wrote:
For chewing you can use Vicks smeared on the furniture to keep it safe. You could also do that outside but it may not be practical. We use a squirt gun on Suki who also loves to eat anything made of wood. When she goes for it we give her a little spray. We also have wooded stick toys that she is allowed to chew.

I have also tried rubbing a bit of citronella oil on the wood outside on my decking (small problems areas) as Jack when he was a pup started chewing on the corners of the steps, it seems to have worked, no more chewing.

by **Galadriel** Sat Jun 30 2012, 07:24

1) Try leaving the room yourself when she nips instead of removing her from the room. By removing yourself, you can do it instantly so she will connect her behaviour with you leaving much more quickly. Leading her out of the room usually takes too long and she won't be able to connect her behaviour with being shut out.

With the jumping, ask the kids to help you play a game. Tether your dog to something the arm yourself and the kids with treats. All take it in turns to walk up to her, the second her two front feet leave the floor, turn round and walk away, wait a few seconds then let the next person aproach, same again, if her paws leave the floor turn around and walk away. When she doesn't jump, feed a treat and keep repeating the process. She'll quickly learn she gets rewarded for having 4 paws on the floor Smile

2) As far as wood's concerned, I'm afraid it's just a case of not allowing access IMO. Remove all the wood from the garden or don't let her out without a lead on so you can stop her going for it. The more she goes for it, the more the behaviour is reinforced.

3) With the stalking, does she know the watch me or focus command (where she gives you eye contact)? If not you need to teach it (start at home), I actually ask my dogs to focus before I give them anything, now the behaviour is 9 times out of 10 offered before I ask for it. For example, when I put their food down, they have to wait and give me eye contact before being told to get it.

Once you have that then start to practise out of doors, start off with few distractions (like no other dogs) and periodically stop, ask for a sit then a focus (or whatever word you use for a watch me) then reward with a favourite game like tug or a high value food reward. Then start doing it when you see other dogs, ideally, you need to see the other dogs first so you can get her into a sit and focusing on you before giving a really high value reward. She'll quickly learn you're far more exciting Wink

Hope you enjoyed the wine and chocolate! Big Grin

by Rudyblue Sat Jun 30 2012, 07:48

Hi we have/had a similair problem with the jumping and nipping.it's not as bad now he's 14 month but he still does it with certain people.we tried the "ow"thing which didn't work.I sought the advice of a police dog handler who told me they use a technique called voice control or command I think.it's all about the tone of your voice,now we say "hey" "down" and "you dare"before the antics on the last one.but the dog knows certain people who talk daft so tries it on when he can.when young kids come in he's put in his cage until they've settled for a bit,then if he tries it on it's "hey"and we give him a bone/toy to distract him,he's still young but it's improving.the dog handler also said the dog should have no more then 3 toys and they use 1 favourite toy otherwise the toys become ineffective. The stalking thing I would stop and stand still ask her to sit maybe give her a treat,stop start,it will be a long process,same as when you teach them to stop pulling. The stags look like wood but are like bone really hard they last ages they don't crack the dog just wears it down. As above use vapour rub on furniture he liked the corner of the skirting board we filled it put the vicks on and he's never bothered since.hope this helps,just keep at it good luck Smile

by Guest Sat Jun 30 2012, 09:26

I personally wouldn't leave the room if she nips, it would assert her higher in the pack as she has MADE you leave. If she ever became agressive, she would know that biting makes people leave her alone. Its much better to remove her.

by **Galadriel** Sat Jun 30 2012, 10:35

Equi wrote:I personally wouldn't leave the room if she nips, it would assert her higher in the pack as she has MADE you leave. If she ever became agressive, she would know that biting makes people leave her alone. Its much better to remove her.

Excitement is very different to agression and it sounds to me like this dog is excitable and seeking attention by mouthing/nipping so the best way to deal with it is to instantly remove the attention she's seeking. By leading her out of the room, you're giving attention and depending on how long it takes, it's likely the dog will associate the negative reinforcement (being shut out) with being led out by the collar which can quickly result in the dog avoiding/playing keep away when anyone tries to hold the collar.

As for the pack thing (I won't go too deep into that now!), I do believe a dog needs to see you as a leader but not giving her what she wants (attention) will NOT mean she no longer sees you as her leader and/lead to agression or dominance problems.

by Guest Sat Jun 30 2012, 10:39

Yes i understand what you are saying, but if an excited dog gets left alone in a room it will still be wound up and you will be stuck outside of whereever your dog is for however long it takes to calm down. Its not really practical esp if there is more than one person in the room and as the poster says it only happens with the grandaughter. If she is excited then left alone, she will be anxious and probably even more wound up when you come back into the room. I have worked with a dogs that the owner did this with and they got really bad seperation aggression and would attack and bite your feet whenever you tried to leave the kennel which caused the owner to have to crate it just to leave a room/the house. there is a large difference to the dog between getting put out for being bold and being left shut in a room they definitely know the difference imo

by **Kathy** Sat Jun 30 2012, 10:41

I think I know how you feel, I was there a few days ago when Rocky had been attacked by a dog we know as friendly.

Rocky also does the stalking thing when we are in the park. We stop and try to get him to sit so the other dog can approach and intoduce themselves properly, sniffing.

Maybe ask the owner of the other dog to put the lead on at least until intoduction complete.

by **Galadriel** Sat Jun 30 2012, 10:47

Equi wrote:Yes i understand what you are saying, but if an excited dog gets left alone in a room it will still be wound up and you will be stuck outside of whereever your dog is for however long it takes to calm down. Its not really practical esp if there is more than one person in the room and as the poster says it only happens with the grandaughter. If she is excited then left alone, she will be anxious and probably even more wound up when you come back into the room. I have worked with a dogs that the owner did this with and they got really bad seperation aggression and would attack and bite your feet whenever you tried to leave the kennel which caused the owner to have to crate it just to leave a room/the house. there is a large difference to the dog between getting put out for being bold and being left shut in a room they definitely know the difference imo

If, as you say, the dog will become anxious by being left alone in the room then what's the difference between that and being left alone outside the room? What would stop the dog from becoming anxious outside the room as opposed to being inside the room?

Sure it's a little more inconvenient if there's more than one person but I'm only talking about leaving the room for 30 seconds to a minute or two and IME it has quicker results.

by Guest Sat Jun 30 2012, 11:05

Like i said, they can tell the difference. anyway the poster already said she gets anxious being put out, so i can only assume it will be anxious being left alone in the room also.

and as you say, whats the difference then of your method? i have explained what can happen with this method also. so both points have pros and cons.

by **Galadriel** Sat Jun 30 2012, 11:11

Equi wrote:Like i said, they can tell the difference. anyway the poster already said she gets anxious being put out, so i can only assume it will be anxious being left alone in the room also.

and as you say, whats the difference then of your method? i have explained what can happen with this method also. so both points have pros and cons.

True, and it's quite hard to advise without seeing the behaviour. Maybe the OP would be better off distracting the dog before her behaviour escalates by giving a bully stick or something...

by Guest Sat Jun 30 2012, 11:15

I agree with that!

by Guest Sat Jun 30 2012, 11:24

Pollyanna wrote:At the moment I am doing what any other responsible owner would do - I have opened a bottle of wine, tucked into the secret stash of chocolate and sought the help of my fellow staffie owners. All suggestions would be greatly appreciated - thank you x

The first thing I would say is..........you've done the same there as 80% of the people on this forum! Laughing

jstaff wrote:For the niping you are doing the right thing it just takes patience and consistancy from everyone involved I'm afraid. I wouldn't leave him alone with you youngest grandchild just to be safe. Children are closer to the ground so dogs seem to think they are playmates. You could keep a bottle with rocks or screws in it and shake it when he does something wrong.

For stalking you can try either turning the other direction when he does it or not allow interactions with other dogs until he is calmly sitting. If you have a friend with an older dog that is well socialized that would make good practice

I would never leave any dog alone with a young child, even a dog that is gentle, calm & bomb proof! You never know if things can get out of hand.

I think the idea with a well socialised & calm dog is a good idea.

Melwilk47 wrote:
I have also tried rubbing a bit of citronella oil on the wood outside on my decking (small problems areas) as Jack when he was a pup started chewing on the corners of the steps, it seems to have worked, no more chewing.

Worth a go!

Galadriel wrote:Try leaving the room yourself when she nips instead of removing her from the room. By removing yourself, you can do it instantly so she will connect her behaviour with you leaving much more quickly. Leading her out of the room usually takes too long and she won't be able to connect her behaviour with being shut out.

Personally, I wouldn't do this. I think you're giving the wrong message to the dog. If you tell a dog "No!" & if it carries on then immediately remove it from the room without a gap, then it will associate the bad behaviour with being taken from the room. If you leave the room you have allowed the dog to be 'in charge' of the situation. Also, if there is a small child in the room it will be difficult to get both adult & child out of the room effectively without the dog trying to follow. It would take longer than the dog's attention span & you will have lost the connection between bad behaviour & the resultant exit. You will end up confusing the dog & even reinforcing the behaviour.

Galadriel wrote: With the stalking, does she know the watch me or focus command (where she gives you eye contact)? If not you need to teach it (start at home), I actually ask my dogs to focus before I give them anything, now the behaviour is 9 times out of 10 offered before I ask for it.

"Watch" is always a useful command.

In addition, the stag bar may help because it looks/feels like chewable wood but she can't swallow bits off it. Otherwise, work on a strong "leave!" command & supervise her closely when she's in the garden.

With the jumping up, is it immediate with the children, or is it after a few minutes of interraction?

by Pollyanna Sat Jun 30 2012, 12:33

Its immediate Caryll from the minute they come in the door - obviously the 15 month old is carried in. But it doesn't calm much after a while either. I would never leave any dog with a child no matter how well behaved it was that goes without saying.

The vick vapour rub is on the tree as we speak.

Funnily enough I have just come back from a walk organised by her trainer. There were about 15 dogs and after a short while we let Lily walk with a trailed lead (she has never been off before) and shortly after that we took the lead off. I have never seen her so happy and didn't know she could shift like that. There were very few issues, mostly caused by one of the others, but she was that excited to be able to run free she behaved well. Everyone remarked how quickly she came back to me when I called. Yet I will guarantee that when we go out later she will still do the stalking bit when she sees another dog. I feel happier today, its like my 'eureka' moment.

Its the jumping / mouthing that bothers me most.

by Guest Sat Jun 30 2012, 13:09

Honstly, we've all been there to a greater or lesser extent - you're not alone!

I think you just need to work hard on either "Watch" and distract her, or keep her on a lead when the grandchildren are there. Staffs are so attracted to children & they don't know their own strength sometimes. Sad

You don't necessarily need to have hold of the lead all the time, just when she gets too 'in your face' with the kids. Then a gentle pull away, with a "watch" and a treat & then time sitting with you instead of just free to play & be a bugga! Big Grin

by **Nosipho** Mon Jul 02 2012, 10:14

Pollyanna wrote:
3. Stalking when approaching dogs
She pulls on the lead with her belly as close to the floor as possible and looks like she is going to attack - must look frightening to other owners. She is more often thatn not OK when she gets to them but she just gives off the wrong message.

I would be careful how you approach this in regards to training, by her flattening herself to the floor like this she is not 'hunting' the other dogs. Actually she is nervous which is why she is apporaching them like this, its more submissive than anything else. I would keep her on the lead and ask the other dog walker if their dog is friendly. If it is then execute a very controlled greeting, ask them to stop and wait and slowly walk her over. Allow the two dogs to sniff one another for a moment and then move on. As she is approaching the other dog she will feel less threatened, the quick greeting and sniff means nothing can frighten her about the meeting, eventually you will probably find her confidence improves. However you might find she always does this, most submissive dogs are difficult to break out of it.

by Pollyanna Mon Jul 02 2012, 10:56

This is very interesting LC and the more I think about it you could very well be right. I do actually do as you say but but for a different reason. She started doing this after an incident that first happened when she was bitten by another staffie (as she was coming out of her training class the other dog was waiting to go into the next one) which drew blood. I have interpreted the behaviour as she is preparing to defend herself or even attack if necessary. When I find a less wary owner who allows the introductions she is fine unless the other dog does kick off. But your interpretation is something I will pursue Smile

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