Maybe it is the dogs fault?

Before i start let me first say, i always have and always will still try to believe that it is the owners fault. But hear me out.

The dog bite and deaths thing is getting really huge. There is new stories every day about dogs bites some of them fatal. It is mostly pitbulls and staffys, but not always, however the number of pits and staffs is alarmign.

This got me thinkinng about breeding. There was such a big demand for these dogs in the last say 10 years, that people bred the hell out of them. i wouldn't think they are over populated in the way that the bite statistics are altered in their way because there is more of them, i still think they are quite rare here. But the fact that they are very desired means people are breeding with no regard for the health or temperament of the dog.

So, baring in mind the dogs temperament might be off due to bad breeding...would a decent home matter? I would go as far as to say most bites are from dogs with owners who have not bothered to do much with them, but then again i didn't do much with my Labrador and she never attacked anyone/thing.

Is bad breeding making the aggressiveness of this breed more pronounced? If so, then what on earth can be done?

I know absolutely nothing about breeding but I would say that it is certainly not helping. I think agressivness can be bred into a dog though, sure I heard this somewhere.

yeah thats what im worried about, if its proven to be in the breeding then apart from totally taking control of breeding which would be impossible, i really can only see them banning staffys. obviously this won't help the situation but its the only step they can take. damn humans and their fads!

nothing is born nasty... it's how they been born up

Thats not entirely true, all good breeders breed a good temperament, because that can be passed on to the puppys. Yes, with training from a very young age the dog can be handled, but when they are not it can turn out bad. But a well bred dog from parents with good temperaments is less likely to turn bad even with minimal training. It's seen in all different breeds of dog not just stafs and pits, but they just got so in demand the breeding went out of control and noone bred for the good temperament just for the money.

it's is true nothing is born nasty... it's how you bring the dog up

Equi wrote:Is bad breeding making the aggressiveness of this breed more pronounced? If so, then what on earth can be done?

It doesn't help, that's for sure. Good breeders breed for temperament as much as physical attributes.

Steve wrote:nothing is born nasty... it's how they been born up

Not quite true, Steve. Bad breeding can produce vicious dogs. If you then go on to breed from those dogs you will perpetuate the problem. However, I think that the main problem is the fact that the pups are badly brought up from the day of birth, go to their new (unsuitable) homes at 6 weeks & are then not treated properly or trained properly.

you only get a vicious dog if you dont train it right....

No, you can get genetically nasty dogs. If a dog is nasty for no reason & is then bred from it will pass on the nastiness - especially nasty studs funnily enough. It's rare, but it can happen.

deed not the breed!

We are not saying it is the breed, we are saying it is the breedING. Dogs are naturally vicious its how they survive, we domesticated them to not be vicious to us and bred dogs with the best temperament so they were not like wolves. but all dogs have the ability to be vicious. if you had a pup that never saw humans until it was 3 or 4, it would be totally aggressive and vicious. not out of pure anger, out of fear.

my point is that dogs with more likelyhood of turning their fear/annoyance/dominance to aggression are being bred from and the pups are learning/inheriting this trait and that could possibly be a reason there are so many dog attacks ALONG with stupid owners. but even good owners that do everything they are supposed to have had aggressive dogs so it has to come down to breeding, cause i believe that we bred the dogs for good temperaments so they should with minimal training be non-agro

sorry i dont agree with you.. you may get the odd dog that is ill that turn nasty but no way any dog is born nasty....

if you get people believe then then other dog will be added to the ban list!

Breeding from sound parents is very important their temperaments have to be spot on with ppl.
Thats the 1st hurdle for a breeder, the 2nds socializing and exposing the new litter to the hussle and bussle of a normal house hold. Letting them explore their surrounds in doing so their learning.
Their learn doggie manners from their mother and siblings plus any other house hold dogs or learn not to take the * out of the families cat.

Once off to its new home its now upto the new owner to carrying on this exploring socialization faze of a puppies development a good breeder has just laid down a good foundation for you to work with.
They now need to learn your house hold rules, they will test you too the limits to see what they can get away with. So its important to stay constant in any training Technics you decided to use.
Get it wrong now and your have a hooligan on your hands, get it right and your have the best loving family dog ever too live.

Yes it true no creature is born bad, nine times out of ten bad behaviour is either learnt or taught.
But in saying that breed from 2 bad tempered dogs and you run the risk of a few popping up the same as their parents in the litter.

The Staffords fighting trait was breed in though generations of only top winning fighting dogs put together. In doing so there was a higher chance their offspring would be the same.
A cur dog ... one that had no fighting go it it was never bred from.
So if this policy worked for the old timers of the breed who installed this fighting trait in the staffords that ppl and society now hates, then i'm pretty sure if generation of ppl biters are bred from then this will become a bad man made trait future breeders are gonna have to worry about.

I think it is a very difficult to hold a single part of this problem responsible. There are several factors, mentioned above, which could result in the increase of dominance/aggression/fear. Also I personally feel that dogs also have personalities... for example my Mum bred 1 litter from her Border Terrier Ruby. She is KC Reg/Papers/Health Checked and she spent a long time looking for a suitable stud match. When the 5 male puppies were born, within just a few weeks you could already see each individuals natural tempriments developing. By the time it came for them to go to a new home my mum had a clear understanding of what each pup needed from their new owners. My mum was very particular in socialising the pups with humans and other dogs and still there was 1 particular pup who had a short temper and wasn't shy of being very physical with humans and other dogs...

I think what im saying is unresponsible breeding/ownership aside it may be possible that a dogs natural personality may play a role in the development of undesirable behaviour. HOWEVER I see it as only a pre-disposition NOT a garanteed outcome. Heston has definately been bred to look a certain way and we believe he was dumped by BYB because he does not have dominant tendancys.

Very interested to see a fair & open discussion about this, without doing so no one will discover how to improve the situation WW regarding breeding and ownership in general Gx

Steve you can't ban someone every time they have a discussion and you don't agree with them. I'm just opening this to discussion.

Denise, you are a breeder yes? How many bad studs do you come across on average and what are their owners like with them? i.e. do you still find people thinking that a tough dominant "fighting" type dog is one they think should be good for breeding?

Equi wrote:Steve you can't ban someone every time they have a discussion and you don't agree with them. I'm just opening this to discussion.

what are you talking about? if you going around saying it's the dog faults then more breeds will be added the ban list just commen sense there!

georgiegem wrote: Also I personally feel that dogs also have personalities...

yes all dog are different and its upto the owners of teaching him/her what right and wrong and that our problem today alot of people cant look after themself so the dog doean't have much of chance of having a good life.

Cant say i've come across any ppl ill tempered studs, as i've not actively searched them out.
I mainly go on a studs pedigree and ask opinions of fellow breeders who i class are more in the 'know' than myself.
So far i've not got it wrong. My females all have lovely soft natures and the studs i have used mirror their breeding lines in some way.

There are some breeders that still like to breed staffords with a bit of fire in them. But these dogs i feel are a danger in the novice stafford owner hands.
But in saying that even 2 non dog aggressive parents can produce a litter with one or two that are norty with other dogs once fully mature.

Im not saying its the breeds/dogs fault (its a title that is supposed to get a responce), i'm saying it is the breeders fault for breeding a bad dog. But in the wrong hands a bad dog is going to be a lot more risky than a good dog. Just saying.


Denise, do you then give out pups to families based on their temperament or is it possible to tell at that early age

dogs will always be bad in the wrong hands dont matter what the parents are like.

But there is the wrong bad like people who want them to be agro then the ones that genuinely don't know what to treat a dog like. The latter should be able to have a dog that doesn't turn agro on them and i really think a lot of that comes down to breeding.

Equi wrote:Steve you can't ban someone every time they have a discussion and you don't agree with them. I'm just opening this to discussion.

Denise, you are a breeder yes? How many bad studs do you come across on average and what are their owners like with them? i.e. do you still find people thinking that a tough dominant "fighting" type dog is one they think should be good for breeding?

hayley read the post again steve not on about banning members he saying if ppl say staffys are born bad the BREED will be added to the bann list

Equi wrote: then the ones that genuinely don't know what to treat a dog like

that not the dogs fault that the owner fault for not researching or giving a dog basic trainning there plenty of information out there

bigwazza wrote:

Equi wrote:Steve you can't ban someone every time they have a discussion and you don't agree with them. I'm just opening this to discussion.

Denise, you are a breeder yes? How many bad studs do you come across on average and what are their owners like with them? i.e. do you still find people thinking that a tough dominant "fighting" type dog is one they think should be good for breeding?

hayley read the post again steve not on about banning members he saying if ppl say staffys are born bad the BREED will be added to the bann list

For some reason the context of that really didn't hit my brain, i saw the word but didn't knwo why it was there. Dur hahah

i get your point steve i really do, but i still believe that its partly breeding too. even a bad dog in good hands will still take a lot more work and can still be risky. not all dogs can be trained.

a good owner will stop bad habits fast and wont let the problem to grow in a huge problem.

Also to point out, this is NOT a post about staffys and pits, it was started due to them but i mean every dog of every breed included. I probably should have posted this in a different part, so feel free to move it if you want to

There are no accurate dog bite statistics out there that go by breed. No studies have shown that dog bites are more common in any breed. Attacks by dogs that can be identified as Pit Bulls are more commonly reported on because they sell papers. You never hear about the JRT, the Border Collie, theChihuahua, or the Lab that bites, because that isn't exciting enough to sell papers. Bad breeding probably does play a part in some dog bites, but I really don't think that is the reason that bites by "pit bulls" are more reported.

It is obvious that, as all of us appear to be responsible dog owners, this is a topic which stirs up a lot of strong feelings. Everyone's opinion should be heard, there is not a definate black and white answer

Every person has their own way of bringing up a dog, not all of them may be responsible to us personally, but it doesn't necessarily mean they are not fit to own a dog. There are many people out there who love their dog dearly, but struggle with a particular behaviour despite their best efforts. They need support & education not accusations of being an irresponsible owner. We are only Human as Dogs are only Dogs!

I firmly believe that most times it is the people and not the dog primarily at fault. However, there are certain traits that are genetic that can have influences. There are times that such an unstable dog is not one that could be worked with no matter how committed the owner (see it as unstable minded). If that dog were bred, it is possible that this trait would pass on. This is why good breeders look for a stable temperment in a stud. That also can be passed along. I think this applies across all breeds. I don't think it is common, but don't you think possible? I think most bites by powerful breeds are reported more in the media because it tends to be more sensational. This leads many sheeple to believe that the breed is unstable, when most likely it would be a) bad owners b) no basic training c) incorrect behavior of the attacked person and possibly d) an unstable dog/badly bred dogs. I think many times it is a combo, but any in isolation could be enough.

there always be some dog that cant be trainning for number of reasons ill ect. brain tumars, inbreding or just be a nut case like in people but i dont think this is down to breding. 99% of nasty dogs is down to bad ownership

Steve wrote:there always be some dog that cant be trainning for number of reasons ill ect. brain tumars, inbreding or just be a nut case like in people but i dont think this is down to breding. 99% of nasty dogs is down to bad ownership

I agree, but also think that there is prob. Some of those types you mentioned who did get bred and their offspring would be more likely to be messed up too.

i'm not sure most of the time these dogs die or get put down before the owner have chance to breed them.

I realize that. I was thinking more theoretically. I agree it is rare and certainly we wouldn't want to see anything like that being bred for sure!

ive just read tho this and i agree with all of it i agree with steve that no dog is born bad as such but i do think that aggression can be past on tho breeding if you was to go by a pup from a breeder and the parent dog/dogs where aggressive i dont know about everyone but i for one would walk away as i would'nt want to risk it

Learnt aggression (from bad treatment/bad training) isn't passed on to pups but genetic aggression (mainly nervous aggression) is passed on.

I would say that 99% of aggression in very young dogs/pups is either nervous aggression from one of the parents being nervous aggressive, or bad treatment/lack of training.

Bearing that in mind Caryll, should the new dog laws take into consideration the age of the dog and then the breeding? for example if a 6 year old dog mauled someone, then it is entirely the owners fault and they should face full punishment of the law..where as a 11 month old dog mauled someone it is bad breeding and the breeder should be held responsible? (the latter we will assume that the owner is decent and has not been actively training the dog to be agressive)

I don't think you'd be able to legislate for that. It would be a legal minefield - how do you prove it? An irresponsible owner could say that the dog's been bad all its life but never been in a situation where it's been able to attack before. A breeder could deny that the parents of the dog were in any way aggressive.

11 month old dog attack someone then it the owner fault you cant blame that on any dog how its been brought up!!

a good dog owner would put a stop to bad habits

I have always seen a dog as a blank slate full of different chi/energy and that is it up to the owner/handler to channel that energy into different places and mould the dog into what they would want it to be, whether is be a man killer or a man-guarder.
Even those dogs who dislike children and will snap at them, it is up to the owner insofar as how to deal or channel that energy and the situation around both them and the dog.
<3

Nervous aggression can always be helped, even if it isn't 'cured'. With the right training you can bring on most nervous aggressive dogs quite well. If people aren't prepared to work with their dogs to help them, then yes, the owners are at fault.

True viciousness, although it's possible, is very rare.

Just to add my bit , I remember reading a piece on the Nanny Dog where it was stated in the old fighting days that if one dog showed aggression to the owner then they would have the dog PTS + siblings + parents to remove the aggression from the bloodlines, and this is how they ended up with a dog that was good in the ring but extremely people friendly and handleable, so from this people seem to think it worked and hence there must be the possibility of genetic agression

i dont believe in it

Although to add a bit more I am a firm believer in trained aggreession being much more of a problem or should I say not actively discouraging it and to a certain extent promoting through play, kick a dog enough and he will bite back !! My cousin had his 2nd Staffy (first one was a 9 year long love affair and the best dog ever) in Denmark and my Aunt was always unsure about him, They always played really rough with him and Eddie just didn't know the boundaries, he went a bit loopy at 3 years and became more and more aggressive until 1 day he almost got my Cousins wifes face and she decided she couldnt take the risk any more as they had lots of kids round the house all the time and it's tough on Staffies in DK as it is so little fella went for his last trip to the vet But to this day they are still for the breed and acknowledge their problems were from them and the people around Eddie not keeping him inside his boundaries

I just want to add that Dog Aggression (Aggression towards other dogs) is a COMPLETELY different behavior trait from Human Aggression (Aggression towards humans).

While Dog Aggression is common in this breed and other Bull and Terrier breeds, Human Aggression is absolutely not and it is absolutely unacceptable. Has been since the days of dog fighting, as a dog's handler had to be able to reach into the pit and pull the dog out if needed.

Im a firm believer in a dog is what you make it.
They arnt born aggressive, and i think a well raised dog would only attack a human for medical etc reasons.
Stans not from very good breeding neither is tara of course. Stans deffinantly not aggressive in any way, tara dosnt get on with some dogs but thats just a growl not agression.
If you know your dog is agressive as a responsible owner you do the responsible thing and ensure it wont attack someone ie using a muzzle etc.
if they arnt put in the situation where they are able too attack they cant so you dont allow a human/dog near your human/dog agressive dog.
Just my opinion.

xXxshelly_stanliexXx wrote:if they arnt put in the situation where they are able too attack they cant so you dont allow a human/dog near your human/dog agressive dog.

So true. A responsible owner knows their dog and sets him/her up for success.

I hate to say this but I agree with Steve all the way. we as owners can make our dogs and not the other way round. my girl had a go at my daughter drawing blood as soon as she entered my house, I put it down to bad breeding (her mum was removed too soon after birth), and now she as good as gold. I trust her and know how she would react in all circumstances

CatStina and Caryll have said more or less exactly my opinions and esp what CatStina says towards the end is really important - you have to separate the discussion of aggression towards dogs and people as they are completely different things. Dog-dog aggression is a known trait in our breed and is something we need to accept and take into account, while dog-human aggression is something that has been very unusual and should be kept that way.

99% of dog bites are the humans fault, but I'm sure there are cases with things like aggressive epilepsy or similar where dogs actually attack without warning, and fear aggression can certainly be increased by bad breeding. (It's still the owners responsibility to keep their dog safe, though, and under threshold!)

In general I'm amazed there aren't more dog bites, though.. Have you seen all the "cute" videos and photos of kids and dogs that tend to circulate on facebook etc - SO often you see lots and lots of calming signals in the dogs.. The poor dogs are just doing everything to calm the situation down, these things are just accidents waiting to happen... And when the dog can't take it any more and snaps they'll try to blame the dog for their ignorance and stupidity... Same thing when interacting with other dogs, people are usually ignorant of the communication between the dogs and therefore unable to keep them out of trouble... Usually there will be lots and lots of signs, but ignorant people just don't notice until they snap.

The only way to fix the aggression problems is by increased knowledge - if people know better they'll prevent most of the problems, and they'll also know better than to breed fearful dogs.

Aniemother wrote:In general I'm amazed there aren't more dog bites, though.. Have you seen all the "cute" videos and photos of kids and dogs that tend to circulate on facebook etc - SO often you see lots and lots of calming signals in the dogs.. The poor dogs are just doing everything to calm the situation down, these things are just accidents waiting to happen... And when the dog can't take it any more and snaps they'll try to blame the dog for their ignorance and stupidity... Same thing when interacting with other dogs, people are usually ignorant of the communication between the dogs and therefore unable to keep them out of trouble... Usually there will be lots and lots of signs, but ignorant people just don't notice until they snap.

agree, there was a video on the forum a couple of days ago like that

^ yeah, i posted that one. It was removed and the user deleted their accont saying "if the dog was going to bite it would have and i would have shot it" or something. knob.


On the dog on dog agro in this breed (bearing in mind this thread is about all breeds of dog not just staffs) do you think that can be bred out or do people not generally care if the parents are dog on dog agro?