The mystery of the Blue Paul Terrier

Has anyone else ever been fascinated by this mysterious dog breed? It is said that this is where the blue colouring in the sbt comes from. This is the generic description you'll find upon googling them:
he Blue Paul Terrier resembled contemporary pit dogs. They had a smooth coat and were powerfully built. They weighed about 20 kg and measured up to 50 cm at the withers. The head was large; the forehead was flat, muzzle short and square, large and broad but not receding like that of the Bulldog. The jaws and teeth were even with no overchanging flews. They had a slight dip between the eyes, which were dark hazel and not sunken, prominent, nor showing haw. The ears were small, thin, set on high, and invariably cropped, and the face was not wrinkled. The eyebrows contracted or knit. The facial expression of the Blue Paul has never been seen in any other breed and can frequently be recognized in mixed-breed dogs. The body was round and well ribbed up, its back short, broad, and muscular but not roached, and its chest deep and wide. The tail was set low and devoid of fringe, rather drooping and never rising above the back. The dog stood straight and firmly on its legs. Its forelegs were stout and muscular, showing no curve. The hind legs were very thick and strong, with well-developed muscles. The colour was dark blue as can be seen in Greyhounds; however, they sometimes produced brindles or reds, which were known as red smuts in Scotland.
The strange thing is no one seems to have any idea where they came from. Apparently a Scottish sailor called John Paul Jones brought some with him from abroad and gypsies used to own them. Well, I think I know where they come from.
Here's a picture of the now infamous Blue Paul Terrier:

And here is a picture of an ancient breed called the Thai Ridgeback:


I think these Blue Paul terriers were Thai Ridgeback type dogs brought back from the orient. If you look up more pictures you will see how similar they look. They are also well known in Thailand as excellent fighting dogs. As well as blue Thai Ridgebacks also come in Red.
What do you think of my theory?

Dr David Harris and Mike Homan think that they actually originated in Scotland as a fighting dog & were used in the formation of other fighting strains, possibly the stafford although that is not authenticated. But they are also said to have been taken to Scotland by John Paul Jones in the 1700s!

It's certain that the gypsies in the Kin Tilloch district had them & used them for fighting.

They died out (I think) in the 1800s.

They died out (I think) in the 1800s.

I read that they were taken over to America with the first immigrants and bred with the bull & terrier dogs there, thus creating the pitbull and the introduction of blue paul is the main difference between the sbt and the apbt.
Also the Romany gypsies are originally from India (not Egypt as was commonly thought) Its not too far fetched that they could have traded for dogs from Thailand and taken them with them, breeding them with other dogs as they went.
If I had a research grant I would do some proper investigating and write a book.

shakespearesdog wrote:
Also the Romany gypsies are originally from India (not Egypt as was commonly thought) Its not too far fetched that they could have traded for dogs from Thailand and taken them with them, breeding them with other dogs as they went.

I doubt it, to be honest. The Romani gypsies migrated from Asia around the 11th century from what I've read, so it's unlikely that they even had dogs back then - or not the sort of dogs like the Blue Paul. They may have had Mastiff type guard dogs, but the bull & terrier type wouldn't have existed then.

That's not to say that the gypsies didn't bring the Blue Paul to Scotland, just that I doubt it came from the Thai Ridgeback.

If anyone did write a book on the Blue Paul ............ I would buy it!

Unfortunately I've never seen any REAL evidence to suggest that a lot of what you read on the net about the now extinct breed is factual ... I even have a novel, where the legandary Blue Paul is mentioned for its fighting prowess, but like I said, I've yet to see any hard proof that it was anything other than a very sucessfull pit dog that happend to be blue in colour at the time! ... there are certainly VERY few respected pit dogs today that are blue, or from blue stock ... the ONLY blue dog these guys recognise even today is a dog called "Bellon Clubs Soga"

This stuff is fascinating. Love hearing about the origins of breeds. Proper informed debate on forums like this is the key to educating the uneducated (I count myself among thse).
The other option is to buy a book that contains only the authors opinion and slant on annicdotal evidence to support their own theories.
I was always interested in how blue staffords came about and always thought it was some kind of fault in the black colour like some kind of albino(I realise that would mean it would probably be white) but never had any informed discussion on the matter.
I look forward to reading more.

I'm not certain that the blue in staffords comes from the Blue Paul. I know that tends to be the accepted story, but dilutes happen naturally all the time, so would crop up even without 'blue' blood being introduced.

The Blue Paul would be so far back in history that it wouldn't make that much difference anyweay - you're talking about 300 years ago, after all!

Bear in mind that the stafford didn't start to be formed until the 1900s, well after the Blue Paul disappeared.

I'm not certain that the blue in staffords comes from the Blue Paul. I know that tends to be the accepted story, but dilutes happen naturally all the time, so would crop up even without 'blue' blood being introduced.

The Blue Paul would be so far back in history that it wouldn't make that much difference anyweay - you're talking about 300 years ago, after all!

Bear in mind that the stafford didn't start to be formed until the 1900s, well after the Blue Paul disappeared.

I don't believe the blue colouring comes from the blue paul but I do believe it was one of the dogs that contributed to the american pitbull terrier and to a much, much lesser extent the stafford. The bull&terrier dog was around all throughout the victorian era, bull baiting was banned in England in 1835. The bull baiting bulldogs as we know them weren't large dogs anyway, a large dog was at a disadvantage, it would fall more heavily and be slower. I think that is more then sufficient time for there to be a blue paul/bull&terrier overlap.
Immigration to the Americas started long before this, it's more then likely that the immigrants brought Blue Pauls with them. Breeding them with the Bull&terriers and the still remaining bulldogs created the american pitbull terrier.
There is an almost exact replica of the original bulldog that still exists there, the only difference is it has been bred up to combat feral pigs. It is called the old southern white.
The blue in the staffordshire is most likely from the ancient sighthounds used by the celts that contributed heavily to the modern greyhound which in turn contributed a huge amount of their blood to other breeds, even non hound and sighthound breeds. Introduction of sighthound blood would explain how the huge and fluffy alaunt mastiffs became lean and short coated.

Unfortunately I've never seen any REAL evidence to suggest that a lot of what you read on the net about the now extinct breed is factual ... I even have a novel, where the legandary Blue Paul is mentioned for its fighting prowess, but like I said, I've yet to see any hard proof that it was anything other than a very sucessfull pit dog that happend to be blue in colour at the time! ... there are certainly VERY few respected pit dogs today that are blue, or from blue stock ... the ONLY blue dog these guys recognise even today is a dog called "Bellon Clubs Soga"

That's why I don't think the blue paul was a terrier or bull breed at all but an ancient breed from the orient. Your suggestion that it was just a single dog makes sense but I think it was a handful of dogs. The fact that this story about them being brought back by a sailor is still been bandied about swings it for me.

I doubt it, to be honest. The Romani gypsies migrated from Asia around the 11th century from what I've read, so it's unlikely that they even had dogs back then - or not the sort of dogs like the Blue Paul. They may have had Mastiff type guard dogs, but the bull & terrier type wouldn't have existed then.

That's not to say that the gypsies didn't bring the Blue Paul to Scotland, just that I doubt it came from the Thai Ridgeback.

But that's the point i'm making, that the blue paul wasn't a bull or terrier or mastiff breed at all, but the forerunner of the thai ridgeback, which is more then likely as it is one of the oldest existing dog breeds. Not many peoples were migrating in the 11th century, especially in Europe, so I doubt the blue paul came from there. It's description fits none of the current breeds known in Europe at the time.

I'm not convinced. The pic I've seen of a Blue Paul (I can't find the damn thing, now, but I'm sure I've got it in one of my books!) is definitely a bull dog type (a then bull dog, not a now bull dog), although much bigger & heavier.

I don't think that were enough of them around to make any really serious difference to the breeding lines of APBTs. The people who emigrated to the USA would have been more likely to take their run of the mill bull & terriers with them & it's those that would have been used towards producing the APBT.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I would just need an awful lot more evidence that will probably never be forthcoming.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I would just need an awful lot more evidence that will probably never be forthcoming.

You're more then welcome to join me on my journey to Thailand for investigation!

shakespearesdog wrote:

I'm not saying you're wrong, I would just need an awful lot more evidence that will probably never be forthcoming.

You're more then welcome to join me on my journey to Thailand for investigation!

Nah! I wouldn't like the climate!