Leavitt bulldog

do you think this type of bulldog should replace the kc register bull dog?

The trouble is, it isn't a 'bull dog'. It's a cross breed. What about the screw tail & the width? I agree the head's better, and the length of leg, but nothing else, really.

As above i like certain elements and it does look healthier but its not a bulldog.....

=/ That back does not look good and honestly, i would never breed from that dog...sorry. Nope. Almost as bad as these huge American Bullies coming out.

Skullkandi wrote:=/ That back does not look good and honestly, i would never breed from that dog...sorry. Nope. Almost as bad as these huge American Bullies coming out.

nothing wrong with these dog at all atleast they can breath like a normal dog

your going have to cross breed the bulldog to fix them there no way on this earth the breeder are going make them more helthy by sticking by the same lines

this say it all the bulldog today as been damage beyound repair


<<---- a old bulldog skull, a today show bulldog ------->>

as said from both sides its not a bulldog and something needs to be done to the breed.
but got to say what great looking dogs a lot more simuer looking to american bulldogs.
to me looks like a cross bulldog boxer mix

they look more like a more of a bulldog then the kc one come on people

this is a desgrace and someone need stopping before these poor dog get worse or our staffy or bull become the same!!

Steve wrote:

Skullkandi wrote:=/ That back does not look good and honestly, i would never breed from that dog...sorry. Nope. Almost as bad as these huge American Bullies coming out.

nothing wrong with these dog at all atleast they can breath like a normal dog

Steve, the muzzle is still truncated & would produce breathing difficulties, although not as many, perhaps.

Steve wrote:your going have to cross breed the bulldog to fix them there no way on this earth the breeder are going make them more helthy by sticking by the same lines

You won't have to cross them at all! You just need breeders to choose the healthiest dogs to breed from - the ones with straighter legs & longer muzzles. As I've said before, it'll all take time. It can be done, but the dog you've pictured just isn't the answer - it isn't a bull dog, it's a mastiff-type cross breed.

Steve wrote:this is a desgrace and someone need stopping before these poor dog get worse or our staffy or bull become the same!!

I agree, it's disgraceful! But the dog you've shown isn't the answer.

but the breeders doesn't want to make the more healthy and the kennel club change the standard and do nothing thing enforce it in the show ring

They are enforcing it! But it takes time!

If they discounted every squashed-faced bulldog in the show ring, the challenge certificates would have to be given to 6 month old puppies because it takes time to breed health problems out.

There are pups coming into the show ring now (and I've seen them) with slightly longer muzzles - not ideal, perhaps, but a lot better! And it will continue to get better.

I know it sounds like I'm the KC's biggest supporter, but I'm not - I'm just being realistic.

on the tv show when they was talking bulldog at the bulldog show they place all unhealthy dogs how is that enforcing it.

if i was the chariman of the kennel club i would removing unhealthy dog from the list they have a huge datebase of unhealthy dogs why are they still allowing them to registered there dogs?

Look, Steve, the dogs that are around at the moment, the breeding dogs, are all pretty unhealthy! BUT. Breeders can choose healthier pups for their breeding programmes in the future. That's the way forward.

Of course the dogs being placed now are poor - but that's because the changes have not kicked in yet. It will take a few generations for you to be able to see a turn around.

the bulldog breeder said she not going to change! so the change wont kick in if breeder dont want too so it upto the kennel club tell them change or face beening banned for life and i cant see the kennel club doing that.

this what the kennel club should be doign with the unhealthy breeds

Extroardinary news from Germany. Following the airing of what has been hailed as "the German PDE" (watch it online here), the VDH (the German Kennel Club) has announced that it is taking over the English Bulldog breed club.

The reason? Bulldog breeders' reluctance to acknowledge and tackle the breed's many health issues.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011_08_01_archive.html

That boy in the first pic is gorgeous

What about introducing Old English Bulldog gradually to bring back a bit of whats needed

it work for the dalmatians but the bad breeders still didn't to know about it.

The pictures certainly show a much healthier looking dog, I would say that it wouldn't have the breathing problems of the English Bull Dog.

Steve wrote:the bulldog breeder said she not going to change! so the change wont kick in if breeder dont want too so it upto the kennel club tell them change or face beening banned for life and i cant see the kennel club doing that.

In that case, yes, the breeder should be struck off the register. It won't stop her breeding bad dogs, but at least they won't be sanctioned by the KC. At the moment they are still wrangling with the Bulldog Breed Council over the changes the KC want to have in the breed standard. The wording the KC have now put in will alter the muzzle & make it longer & therefore healthier.

If you look back at the original Bulldogs, they look nothing like either the dogs as they are now, or the ones you've shown at the beginning of this discussion! Neither do they look like the Olde Tyme Bulldogs etc etc.

Andy wrote:That boy in the first pic is gorgeous

What about introducing Old English Bulldog gradually to bring back a bit of whats needed

As said above, the Old Tyme English Bulldog doesn't much resemble the original Bulldogs of the 18th/19th century. I think what is needed is a concerted effort by all the top breeders to increase the length of muzzle & lessen the exagerrations in the breed. Any that won't comply should be refused registration with the KC.

As said above, the Old Tyme English Bulldog doesn't much resemble the original Bulldogs of the 18th/19th century.

They're a damn site closer to the original than the poor "standard" dogs of today !! ... so why try to fix the problem simply by breeding the best of a bad lot (so to speak) .... if the dogs in these pics dont "much resemble" the dogs of old, the current show dogs are even further from that look !! just going for the slightly longer legged, and longer snouted examples of the current lines wont get back the dog of old any more than say the Olde English Bulldogge being introduced as a sort of foundation stud in an attempt to breed health back into the breed surely ??

The current Bulldog is a disgrace, and more over, its an even bigger disgrace how breeders are allowed to cause the demise of what started as an athlete of a dog in every sense of the word IMO .. and is now amongst the poorest of health pedegree dogs in the show ring today

someone in usa cross bred a dalmatians to english pointer (i think) to fix one of thier health problem then bred the pups back with dalmatians and it fix the problem but dalmatians breeder in the uk dont want anything do with these healthy dogs

Look, I agree with you, the problem needs solving.

However, if you're going to outcross with the likes of the old tyme bulldogs you might just as well get rid of the Bulldog completely. The old tyme bulldogs are far more like mastiffs than bulldogs.

We could go round in circles like this forever. I think I'll just bow out now before I get myself into trouble.

Caryll wrote:Look, I agree with you, the problem needs solving.

However, if you're going to outcross with the likes of the old tyme bulldogs you might just as well get rid of the Bulldog completely. The old tyme bulldogs are far more like mastiffs than bulldogs.

We could go round in circles like this forever. I think I'll just bow out now before I get myself into trouble.

I know what ya mean Caryll, and I'm not in the mood for a argument either TBH, Im knackered .. but all I'm sayin is the breeder's have been allowed to get rid of the Bulldog already havent they !!! what you see in the ring today shouldnt be called a Bulldog anymore! ... its just a mutation of a once amazing animal as far as I'm concerned

There is nothing wrong with out crosses in dog or cat breeding, pedigrees are only records of ancestory.

stiofan wrote:There is nothing wrong with out crosses in dog or cat breeding, pedigrees are only records of ancestory.

Yes, but 'pedigree' in this context means a pure bred dog registered with the Kennel Club.

I think that looks more like the original bulldog than the mutation we have now. I love Bulldogs, I think they're lovely dogs, but they are so unhealthy, and they have chnaged soooo much over the years. I'd rather have one of the ones from the first set of pics than one of the kc ones we have now. Much healthier looking, and pretty too

Caryll wrote:

stiofan wrote:There is nothing wrong with out crosses in dog or cat breeding, pedigrees are only records of ancestory.

Yes, but 'pedigree' in this context means a pure bred dog registered with the Kennel Club.

yes and if you out cross to another registered pedigree dog you still have a pedigree dog and select for the qualities you want. That is how the american guy used pointers to introduced the gene into dalmations which allows the dogs to process urine properly. They could easily use healthier dogs to get a quicker result if not obcessed with how many generations the pedigree goes back.There is no reason why breeders can't do that to sort many problems . Breeders and KC would need to decide which out crosses are allowed , same as cat breeders do with some breeds.(there are some horrific cats about also though) I think the KC will keep trying to improve the health of dogs but they have to try and keep breeders in the loop or what's the point? as you say the breeders can just leave the KC.

I just saw this now. That is what Gimli was. We still miss our olde. I think they are much much better, but still have a way to go before it can be as healthy as a staffy. They are much larger than the kc bd. Mine was 65-70lbs and he wasn't as big as some. Some around here are up to 100lbs. Still have the great bd personality and they can run a bit too! He still couldn't do long hikes though and was happier sleeping than going for a walk. He used to stop at the car in the driveway when we took him out to walk and look with pleading eyes to get in the car instead. Brought back a lot of memories... miss him.

FYI, the Leavitt Bulldogs are a cross between selected EB and AB for foundation and then selective line breeding from there. It isn't a mastiff breed. It is an alternative bulldog breed. However, they are not pedigree and there has been a fiasco here trying to make them into a "breed." There are three "registries" that I know of and none can get aknowledged by any kennel club. I loved mine, but I acutally prefer the Staff now that I have two (as a breed). I do think they are healthier than the KC BD though. No arguement that they are not the original bulldog. I believe that is lost in history.

stiofan wrote:

Caryll wrote:

stiofan wrote:There is nothing wrong with out crosses in dog or cat breeding, pedigrees are only records of ancestory.

Yes, but 'pedigree' in this context means a pure bred dog registered with the Kennel Club.

yes and if you out cross to another registered pedigree dog you still have a pedigree dog and select for the qualities you want.

You're deliberately misunderstanding the meaning of pedigree in this context. For a dog to be registered with the KC it has to be the product of two registered dogs of the same breed. Yes, there have been and still are certain individual exceptions, but in general terms two pedigree dogs of different breeds, mated together, will produce cross-breed pups, not pedigree pups. In this context.

Caryll wrote:

stiofan wrote:

Caryll wrote:

stiofan wrote:There is nothing wrong with out crosses in dog or cat breeding, pedigrees are only records of ancestory.

Yes, but 'pedigree' in this context means a pure bred dog registered with the Kennel Club.

yes and if you out cross to another registered pedigree dog you still have a pedigree dog and select for the qualities you want.

You're deliberately misunderstanding the meaning of pedigree in this context. For a dog to be registered with the KC it has to be the product of two registered dogs of the same breed. Yes, there have been and still are certain individual exceptions, but in general terms two pedigree dogs of different breeds, mated together, will produce cross-breed pups, not pedigree pups. In this context.

And this is precisely why the Leavitt Bulldog is not recognized as a breed by any kennel club (KC, AKC, UKC...).

kennel club allow a part cross breed to registered as a dalmations, in the usa a bloke who loved dalmations and wanted to fixs the big healthy problem the bred had so he cross bred dalmations with a english pointer and then bred the pup back to dalmations and it has work the line doesn't have any healthy problems now and a nice healthy line is in the uk now and the kennel lub as allow them to be registered under dalmations but the dalmations breed club dont want anything to do with the line i cant understand why

Steve wrote:kennel club allow a part cross breed to registered as a dalmations, in the usa a bloke who loved dalmations and wanted to fixs the big healthy problem the bred had so he cross bred dalmations with a english pointer and then bred the pup back to dalmations and it has work the line doesn't have any healthy problems now and a nice healthy line is in the uk now and the kennel lub as allow them to be registered under dalmations but the dalmations breed club dont want anything to do with the line i cant understand why

Probably only because the view on pedigree dogs is somewhat like race to some people (they don't accept anything they view as different). Doesn't make it right, but I honestly think they view the line as impure despite the kc acceptance.

Caryll i am not deliberatley misunderstanding anything, I'm talking about ways of changing these registered pedigree dogs., which has been done in the past in dogs and cats and is on going in the cat breeds i have. All i'm saying is it can be done.And if they work with the KC they are not applying to register a new breed they are improving the registered "pedigree" dogs.

This is on the KC site.

Q) Why doesn’t the Kennel Club do more to encourage outcrossing to enable a greater variety of dogs to contribute to pedigree gene pools?

A) The Kennel Club encourages many measures to help ensure the healthiest gene pools, which includes intervarietal matings and outcrossing (where two breeds are put together and their great-great grandchildren are registered as pedigree dogs). This means that we can keep the advantages of predictability in pedigree dogs (temperament, exercise needs, the conditions for which they should be health tested) but also prevent the loss of genetic diversity.

Recent examples of where this has been beneficial is the registration of a Dalmatian that had a Pointer in its ancestry to help introduce a low uric acid gene, the interbreeding of Bull Terriers and Miniature Bull Terriers to overcome PLL (Primary Lens Luxation - an eye problem) in Minis and the interbreeding of Belgian Shepherd Dog varieties to increase their gene pools.

There is no one size fits all solution for all breeds but science is giving us crucial information about how to improve both the health and genetic diversity of different breeds of dog. The Kennel Club has conducted groundbreaking research with scientists at the Animal Health Trust, which will show the number of genetically different dogs that are effectively contributing to each breed. This will be crucial information that will help breeders to develop solutions relevant to their breeds which might include outcrossing, importing dogs from abroad or using a greater variety of stud dogs.

bbimson wrote:

Steve wrote:kennel club allow a part cross breed to registered as a dalmations, in the usa a bloke who loved dalmations and wanted to fixs the big healthy problem the bred had so he cross bred dalmations with a english pointer and then bred the pup back to dalmations and it has work the line doesn't have any healthy problems now and a nice healthy line is in the uk now and the kennel lub as allow them to be registered under dalmations but the dalmations breed club dont want anything to do with the line i cant understand why

Probably only because the view on pedigree dogs is somewhat like race to some people (they don't accept anything they view as different). Doesn't make it right, but I honestly think they view the line as impure despite the kc acceptance.

that why i said they need to get rid of the bad apple or nothing will change, some people get set in their ways and wont listen to people who say that is the main problem today.

Dalmatian-Pointer Backcross Project

Hyperuricemia in Dalmatians (as in all breeds) is inherited. However, unlike other breeds of dog the "normal" gene for uricase is not present in the breed's gene pool at all. Therefore, there is no possibility of eliminating hyperuricemia among pure-bred Dalmatians. The only possible solution to this problem must then be crossing Dalmatians with other breeds in order to reintroduce the "normal" uricase gene. This has led to the foundation of the "Dalmatian-Pointer Backcross Project", which aims to reintroduce the normal uricase gene into the Dalmatian breed. The backcross that was done was to a single English pointer; subsequent breedings have all been to purebred Dalmatians. This project was started in 1973 by Dr. Robert Schaible. The f1 hybrids did not resemble Dalmatians very closely. The f1s were then crossed back to pure-bred Dals. This breeding produced puppies of closer resemblance to the pure Dal. By the fifth generation in 1981 they resembled pure Dals so much that Dr. Schaible convinced the AKC to allow two of the hybrids to be registered along with pure-bred Dals. Then AKC President William F. Stifel stated that "If there is a logical, scientific way to correct genetic health problems associated with certain breed traits and still preserve the integrity of the breed standard, it is incumbent upon the American Kennel Club to lead the way." The Dalmatian Club of America's (DCA) board of directors supported this decision, however it quickly became highly controversial among the club members. A vote by DCA members opposed the registration of the hybrids, causing the AKC to ban registration to any of the dog's offspring.

At the annual general meeting of the DCA in May 2006 the backcross issue was discussed again by club members. In June of the same year DCA members were presented with an opportunity to vote on whether to reopen discussion of the Dalmatian Backcross Project. The results of this ballot were nearly 2:1 in favor of re-examining support of the Dalmatian Backcross Project by the Dalmatian Club of America. This has begun with publication of articles presenting more information both in support of and questioning the need for this Project. In July 2011, the AKC agreed to allow registration of backcrossed Dalmatians.

In 2010, the UK Kennel Club registered a backcrossed Dalmatian called Ch. Fiacre’s First and Foremost. Several restrictions were imposed on the dog. Although the dog is at least 13 generations removed from the original Pointer cross, its F1 to F3 progeny will be marked on registration certificates with asterisks (which "indicate impure or unverified breeding"[22]), no progeny will be eligible to be exported as pedigrees for the next five years, and all have to be health tested. UK Dalmatian breed clubs have objected to the decision by the Kennel Club.

stiofan wrote:Yes, but 'pedigree' in this context means a pure bred dog registered with the Kennel Club.

yes and if you out cross to another registered pedigree dog you still have a pedigree dog and select for the qualities you want. [/quote]

stiofan wrote:Caryll i am not deliberatley misunderstanding anything, I'm talking about ways of changing these registered pedigree dogs., which has been done in the past in dogs and cats and is on going in the cat breeds i have. All i'm saying is it can be done.And if they work with the KC they are not applying to register a new breed they are improving the registered "pedigree" dogs.

I'm sorry, but your first post is wrong! The results of an outcross cannot be deamed 'pure' or 'pedigree' until they have been bred back to the original breed for several generations. They will not be registered as 'pure' until the great great grandchildren are born.

I think they need a straight muzzled, but let wrinkled breed to bring back the bulldog. Erm, the Pitbull is the best option, but then again, those are illegal, maybe crossing them with staffordshires...but the whole thing is, who would buy the pups =/

if they was going to do Backcross Project for the bulldog to sort out their skull then they wont be doing it with a staffy or pitbull, they would find the best non kc registered type of bulldog to do it with like the Leavitt bulldog, vally buldog, alapaha blue blood bulldog or even bulldog x american bulldog

Skullkandi wrote:I think they need a straight muzzled, but let wrinkled breed to bring back the bulldog. Erm, the Pitbull is the best option, but then again, those are illegal, maybe crossing them with staffordshires...but the whole thing is, who would buy the pups =/

???????????????????????why is a pitbull the best option a staffie is a closer relitive to a bulldog
hhhhhhuuuuuuuummmmmmfffffffff im keeping out of this one
skullkandi if your just posting for kicks go and do it somewere else

The old tyme bulldogs are far more like mastiffs than bulldogs.

But the original bulldogs came from mastiffs. I don't like the look of that dog-I mean I don't dislike it, its an attractive dog but not to have it replace the british. I would outcross the brit bulldog with staffordshire bull terriers to make the breed more healthy-they are after all-are the ancestors of the original bulldogs.
If they wanted to replace the brit bulldog completely (which I doubt would ever happen) I would choose the victorian bulldog. They are much more attractive and closer in looks to the brit bulldog. I've never heard of this 'Leavitt' bulldog. The victorian bulldog in my opinion is the best of the recreated bulldog breeds.

Erm, the Pitbull is the best option, but then again, those are illegal, maybe crossing them with staffordshires...but the whole thing is, who would buy the pups =/

Pitbull is a poor man's staffordshire. Its a mongrel. Staffordshires have much older and purer blood. Why fix what aint broke?

we are getting to point where there wont be no turning back to we will end up going to have let the british bulldog die and replace it with a healthy bulldog type or crossback the british bulldog with other healthy type of bulldog to fix the skull so it can breath like a normal dog.

bulldog with a staffy or a pitbull is not the right way of going about it.

what you would have to do is search for one of these dogs that is very similar to the bulldog (like they did with the Dalmatians) but with a longer muzzle and hope for the best.

shakespearesdog wrote: I would outcross the brit bulldog with staffordshire bull terriers to make the breed more healthy-they are after all-are the ancestors of the original bulldogs.

No, they're not! Bulldogs are the ancestors of the stafford!!

shakespearesdog wrote: Pitbull is a poor man's staffordshire. Its a mongrel. Staffordshires have much older and purer blood. Why fix what aint broke?

I think a lot of people who own an APBT or an American Staffordshire Terrier would take great issue with that statement! The true pitbull is most certainly not a mongrel!

Steve wrote:crossback the british bulldog with other healthy type of bulldog to fix the skull so it can breath like a normal dog.

bulldog with a staffy or a pitbull is not the right way of going about it.

If they choose a dog that is physically similar to the bulldog then that would work. But I really can't see that there are any that the bulldog enthusiasts would accept. So personally, I think the breed will eventually die out.

I agree that the staff is not the way forward; they have totally different characters.

Steve wrote:what you would have to do is search for one of these dogs that is very similar to the bulldog (like they did with the Dalmatians) but with a longer muzzle and hope for the best.

I think most people would accept that, but I can't think of a breed that is similar enough to please everybody.

there must still be some nice examples that can be breed from there just needs to be a proper breeding program and stop the breeding from the deformed specimens that were used to create the example shown

these two are far better examples

bigwazza wrote:there must still be some nice examples that can be breed from there just needs to be a proper breeding program and stop the breeding from the deformed specimens that were used to create the example shown

The trouble with that is there probably aren't enough 'good' specimens left to create a goode sized gene pool. You would end up having to inbreed to a high extent which would bring even more problems.