Indian bull terrier

First topic message reminder :

Hi i am from India, my name is Deepesh joshi, i felt like sharing the pics of my Indian bull terrier, I feel this dog breed in India is been preserved as in form which James Hinks made. Hope you like it

Best Regards
Deepesh joshi
India

Indian bull terrier wrote:@There are many in Pakistan and India who say that the Indian Bull Terrier or Gull Ter is actually the original Hink's dog
It is me that cannot read correctly what has been mentioned or its you ? it says actually its the orignal hinks dog..

@.It is obviously not the original Hinks' dog as said above
Why does it looks obvious to you?

It can't be the original Hinks' dog, because there were never enough in India to have kept the line going pure - there must have been crosses! The quote also says that there are many who say that it is, not that it actually is.

Caryll wrote:

Indian bull terrier wrote:@There are many in Pakistan and India who say that the Indian Bull Terrier or Gull Ter is actually the original Hink's dog
It is me that cannot read correctly what has been mentioned or its you ? it says actually its the orignal hinks dog..

@.It is obviously not the original Hinks' dog as said above
Why does it looks obvious to you?

It can't be the original Hinks' dog, because there were never enough in India to have kept the line going pure - there must have been crosses! The quote also says that there are many who say that it is, not that it actually is.

Our country and kings have been fond of british dogs. and due to liking for dog fights made this breed come so far. What counts shows that there were not enogh dogs to continue the breed? i mean do you have any exact records of dogs carried to India?

Caryll you just are assuming certain facts which are completly wrong. This argument would continue for ever un less untill any strong backing to this facts is not made by Dna study or something more strong.

Indian bull terrier wrote: What counts shows that there were not enogh dogs to continue the breed? i mean do you have any exact records of dogs carried to India?

No, but it would never have been enough to keep the breed pure. That, I'm afraid, is a genetic fact.

But yes, you're right, this could go round in circles for ever!

Above pics are of year 1920 of Indian king with his bull terrier.

Caryll wrote:

Indian bull terrier wrote: What counts shows that there were not enogh dogs to continue the breed? i mean do you have any exact records of dogs carried to India?

No, but it would never have been enough to keep the breed pure. That, I'm afraid, is a genetic fact.

But yes, you're right, this could go round in circles for ever!

Really funny caryll you are denying existance of certain breed in a country on the basis of what you feel that there may not be enough dogs(assumptions of yours). i feel i am just arguing with a guy who is on denial mode without any facts in his pocket and theories based on what he feels is right and cannot go the other way. bye have a nice day.

Indian bull terrier wrote:

Caryll wrote:

Indian bull terrier wrote: What counts shows that there were not enogh dogs to continue the breed? i mean do you have any exact records of dogs carried to India?

No, but it would never have been enough to keep the breed pure. That, I'm afraid, is a genetic fact.

But yes, you're right, this could go round in circles for ever!

Really funny caryll you are denying existance of certain breed in a country on the basis of what you feel that there may not be enough dogs(assumptions of yours). i feel i am just arguing with a guy who is on denial mode without any facts in his pocket and theories based on what he feels is right and cannot go the other way. bye have a nice day.

Well, I'm female, so you got that wrong!

But it's too small a gene pool for the breed to have been kept pure. Fact. There could never have been enough of Hinks' dogs brought over to India to keep the line pure to today. I have tried to keep this friendly, but you obviously don't want to, so bye, have a nice day yourself.

Indian bull terrier wrote:

Very cool photo!

Deepesh, I honestly find it hard to believe that there was enough pure breeding from the original Hinks line, way back then to give "Hinks blood" dogs today

All the same, what an interesting thread

I'm sure you could keep a population ticking over for that length of time the problem would be keeping the breed healthy. I suppose it depends on how pure Hinks bred the dogs are supposed to be. My cats are Laperms and appeared in the USA about 20 or so years ago and already the UK and USA types are changing because they use different out crosses in breeding.But both are still Laperms and descended from the one original cat.Sorry Caryll i thought you were male for quite a while, only because my only friend called that was a guy, people often expect me to be a polish woman

wow your 2 dogs look like a pigeon pair in the photos ( except one is a boy and one a girl! )

Good on you for saving a dog from the most horrific and cruel sport around.

Caryll wrote:

Indian bull terrier wrote:

Caryll wrote:

Indian bull terrier wrote: What counts shows that there were not enogh dogs to continue the breed? i mean do you have any exact records of dogs carried to India?

No, but it would never have been enough to keep the breed pure. That, I'm afraid, is a genetic fact.

But yes, you're right, this could go round in circles for ever!

Really funny caryll you are denying existance of certain breed in a country on the basis of what you feel that there may not be enough dogs(assumptions of yours). i feel i am just arguing with a guy who is on denial mode without any facts in his pocket and theories based on what he feels is right and cannot go the other way. bye have a nice day.

Well, I'm female, so you got that wrong!

But it's too small a gene pool for the breed to have been kept pure. Fact. There could never have been enough of Hinks' dogs brought over to India to keep the line pure to today. I have tried to keep this friendly, but you obviously don't want to, so bye, have a nice day yourself.

caryll
Sorry for thinking you a guy, let me ask you a question, how many dogs are needed to carry breed or a particular line? let me help you 3 male dogs and 3 female dogs are enough for a breed to survive, within 5 to 10 years as dogs generations multiply very quickly yu can see a big tree and very good number of population by merely 3male and 3 female. I guarantee you that, as i WAS also not there in that era, there would have been definately more than 6 dogs imported to India. now dont argue with me on this too.
You compare this dogs to gull terr, you without knowing assume that this dogs are made to look like old type without knowing what is happening in India, you cannot beleive that this breed has migrated to India, without any strong facts you are trying to proove your points on baseless theories and you expect me to digest that?

stiofan wrote:I'm sure you could keep a population ticking over for that length of time the problem would be keeping the breed healthy. I suppose it depends on how pure Hinks bred the dogs are supposed to be. My cats are Laperms and appeared in the USA about 20 or so years ago and already the UK and USA types are changing because they use different out crosses in breeding.But both are still Laperms and descended from the one original cat.Sorry Caryll i thought you were male for quite a while, only because my only friend called that was a guy, people often expect me to be a polish woman

you are right keeping breed healthy is an issue, this pair of mine hardly goes to any vet , except for vacinations, i could give my vet number you can ask there health status to my vet. secondly lets think why does a particular breed or let us say why did hinks type breed changed in to egg head bull terriers, i think it is because show people wanted some thing different and perfect stats dog and the taste of type of dog changed this breed too, where as in India because this dogs are only popular in dog fights, show people hardly know this breed, so the emphasis of this breed was on ability to fight and not on show rings. so the dogs whoever is good fighter got the mating demand and that was main criteria that this breed with very few differences to Hinks type remains preserved in its form.

Andy wrote:Deepesh, I honestly find it hard to believe that there was enough pure breeding from the original Hinks line, way back then to give "Hinks blood" dogs today

All the same, what an interesting thread

No dog in world is pure Andy, its that we all put them in to certain category. saying that there was a strict breeding programme carried to preserve this breed would also be foolishness to my part, but certain breeds survive despite of this.

Indian bull terrier wrote:

The neclace this dog is wearing was made up of pure Ruby stone.

Dont want to get into the debate. Whilst I admire the build and stature of the breed I have to admit that the face and jawline is a little heavy for my taste. Very glad however that you rescued a fighting dog. The sport is barbaric.

Indian bull terrier wrote:[caryll
Sorry for thinking you a guy, let me ask you a question, how many dogs are needed to carry breed or a particular line? let me help you 3 male dogs and 3 female dogs are enough for a breed to survive, within 5 to 10 years as dogs generations multiply very quickly yu can see a big tree and very good number of population by merely 3male and 3 female. I guarantee you that, as i WAS also not there in that era, there would have been definately more than 6 dogs imported to India. now dont argue with me on this too.
You compare this dogs to gull terr, you without knowing assume that this dogs are made to look like old type without knowing what is happening in India, you cannot beleive that this breed has migrated to India, without any strong facts you are trying to proove your points on baseless theories and you expect me to digest that?

Indian bull terrier wrote:

stiofan wrote:I'm sure you could keep a population ticking over for that length of time the problem would be keeping the breed healthy. I suppose it depends on how pure Hinks bred the dogs are supposed to be. My cats are Laperms and appeared in the USA about 20 or so years ago and already the UK and USA types are changing because they use different out crosses in breeding.But both are still Laperms and descended from the one original cat.Sorry Caryll i thought you were male for quite a while, only because my only friend called that was a guy, people often expect me to be a polish woman

you are right keeping breed healthy is an issue, this pair of mine hardly goes to any vet , except for vacinations, i could give my vet number you can ask there health status to my vet. secondly lets think why does a particular breed or let us say why did hinks type breed changed in to egg head bull terriers, i think it is because show people wanted some thing different and perfect stats dog and the taste of type of dog changed this breed too, where as in India because this dogs are only popular in dog fights, show people hardly know this breed, so the emphasis of this breed was on ability to fight and not on show rings. so the dogs whoever is good fighter got the mating demand and that was main criteria that this breed with very few differences to Hinks type remains preserved in its form.

OK. I was just going to leave this, but this will be my last (probably!) post on the matter.
1. Whilst you would only need a small number of dogs & bitches to continue breeding 'pure' you would, because of the heavy inbreeding necessary, introduce quite substantial health issues, and your two dogs would almost certainly be quite 'weedy', which they are obviously not. Also, you would eventually lose 'type' over the years & the dogs would not look the same. Therefore, a certain amount of out crossing MUST have been introduced. Whilst the present day Indian BTs MAY trace their line back to one of the hinks type dogs, it will not be pure, far from it.

You say yourself that breeding was done purely on 'gameness', therefore good fighting dogs other than the Hinks' dogs would have been used in a breeding programme.

Please don't blinker yourself about the 'pureness' of the breed.

Lol
Dear ask anyone who breeds small breeds like bull terrier, what would be the out come of cross breed in bull terrier.
coat , colour ears, tail all would change and it can be noticed if at all its in there. try mixing something in modern bull terrier and you would come to know what i am trying to say.

You and your assumptions great your arguments are just based on your perceptions and not on facts. NO BREED OF DOG IS PURE. i read some where that ,dont argue with people who dont know the facts of the topic because ultimately they would defend themselves with baseless statements, and you purely are showing that.

Caryll what breed are you in to?

Indian bull terrier wrote:Caryll what breed are you in to?

I am 'in to' many breeds od dog. I am interested in canine genetics in general, although by no means an expert! For what it's worth, my main likes of the dog world are Staffordshire Bull Terriers and English Bull Terriers, followed by GSDs and the Pastoral breeds in general.

And if you are not going to argue with people who don't know the facts, why are you still arguing with me? Obviously because you feel that I may know some facts that you have missed?

I learn from every one. but i move when people just want to argue rather than discus.

Then move.

Indian bull terrier wrote:

Andy wrote:Deepesh, I honestly find it hard to believe that there was enough pure breeding from the original Hinks line, way back then to give "Hinks blood" dogs today

All the same, what an interesting thread

No dog in world is pure Andy, its that we all put them in to certain category. saying that there was a strict breeding programme carried to preserve this breed would also be foolishness to my part, but certain breeds survive despite of this.

Is this not just a difference of opinion about what "pure bred" means?and i agree that pure bred and healthy don't always go together, as we know from other dog breeds?. Is it not common when breeding new or novel dogs/cats to use out crosses showing traits you would like in your breed?. I like the look of both these types of bull terrier.
Ps i just realised i'd not read the last few posts, maybe it is time to just stop here ?.

Firstly your dogs are lovely and well done in doing your best to save them from the most evil so called sport but for me I would never breed a dog and allow it to be in the country were it is persicuted and tortured. At least in other countries it is banned and although it does go on at least these scum who participate are looking over there shoulders and one day get caught and punished.
I can see both sides of the argument one cannot prove it is and the other cannot prove its not so I thought I knew loads about pure bred dogs and that but havent a clue about hicks ect but he was obviously a nasty man.
I dont agree about pure bred dogs though once a breed is confirmed and a breed standard is written and accepted close breeding will keeep that dog pure ????

welcome, wow real old school...

What a stunning pair of dogs!

Indian bull terrier wrote:You and your assumptions great your arguments are just based on your perceptions and not on facts. NO BREED OF DOG IS PURE. i read some where that ,dont argue with people who dont know the facts of the topic because ultimately they would defend themselves with baseless statements, and you purely are showing that.

That is so true, theres not many pure bull breeds most have been crossed with some else, look at all the different types of staffys on here, how many of the pitbulls are now breed with wippet or grayhound in them...

Welcome from Daisy and myself.
Reading this whole thing I have learned interesting things.