caesar milan

by debs0109 Thu Mar 21 2013, 22:14

First topic message reminder :

I was wondering what you think of Caesar Milan? I have heard good and bad reports on his training methods. Opinions please Smile

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 20:53

utter idiot and alot of the dogs he's 'worked' with get PTS in the end but it doesn't get publicised to much

can't stand him

by stig Fri Mar 22 2013, 20:53

Thats actually how I'd have liked my post to come across Caryll, reading mine back it is like I'm saying give up on all aggresive dogs, for which I apologize. If a dog has to be beaten and kicked to be taught not to be aggresive then the only reason that dog has to be good is because he fears punishment, as Caryll says eventually the dog will no longer be scared and may revert to the old ways, positive training gives the dog a good reason to behave and the dog will then aim to please. I read something last year about a disease that actually made dogs flip out and start attacking anything in site, the dog would be oblivious afterwards and become friendly again, I believe it affected the show line of some Spaniels, thats the kind of dog I would consider a lost cause (unless you had the dog muzzled and on a lead 24/7, which is no life for a dog)

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 20:55

stig wrote: I read something last year about a disease that actually made dogs flip out and start attacking anything in site, the dog would be oblivious afterwards and become friendly again, I believe it affected the show line of some Spaniels, thats the kind of dog I would consider a lost cause (unless you had the dog muzzled and on a lead 24/7, which is no life for a dog)

That sounds like a form of epilepsy - not nice, and it's mainly hereditary.

by stig Fri Mar 22 2013, 20:58

ella wrote:utter idiot and alot of the dogs he's 'worked' with get PTS in the end but it doesn't get publicised to much

can't stand him

That doesn't surprise me to be honest, because the second he leaves the dog has nothing to worry about

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 21:09

Caryll wrote:
stig wrote: I read something last year about a disease that actually made dogs flip out and start attacking anything in site, the dog would be oblivious afterwards and become friendly again, I believe it affected the show line of some Spaniels, thats the kind of dog I would consider a lost cause (unless you had the dog muzzled and on a lead 24/7, which is no life for a dog)

That sounds like a form of epilepsy - not nice, and it's mainly hereditary.

Yes, it definitely sounds like it.

I knew a dog a few years back who got PTS due to epilepsy. Big staffy-cross, though it would have been classed as a pit-type. Anyway, the first time I saw it, it was all licks and wagging tail and the like. The next time I saw it, it made a beeline for me and my friend with teeth showing and snarling madly.

This happened several times - friendly, then suddenly snapping and eyes going blank. The last straw, I believe, was when it attacked a collie puppy, which I actually saw happen. Learned a few weeks later that the dog had been euthanised.

by stig Fri Mar 22 2013, 21:18

Caryll wrote:
stig wrote: I read something last year about a disease that actually made dogs flip out and start attacking anything in site, the dog would be oblivious afterwards and become friendly again, I believe it affected the show line of some Spaniels, thats the kind of dog I would consider a lost cause (unless you had the dog muzzled and on a lead 24/7, which is no life for a dog)

That sounds like a form of epilepsy - not nice, and it's mainly hereditary.

Thats the one, it was nicknamed "cocker rage" as it was believed to only affect the show line of English cockerspaniel and only a certain colour (which isn't surprising if it's hereditary and it was in the showline early on), it was then found to be in other breeds and is believed to be a form of epilepsy.

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 21:19

stig wrote:
Caryll wrote:
stig wrote: I read something last year about a disease that actually made dogs flip out and start attacking anything in site, the dog would be oblivious afterwards and become friendly again, I believe it affected the show line of some Spaniels, thats the kind of dog I would consider a lost cause (unless you had the dog muzzled and on a lead 24/7, which is no life for a dog)

That sounds like a form of epilepsy - not nice, and it's mainly hereditary.

Thats the one, it was nicknamed "cocker rage" as it was believed to only affect the show line of English cockerspaniel and only a certain colour (which isn't surprising if it's hereditary and it was in the showline early on), it was then found to be in other breeds and is believed to be a form of epilepsy.

There's something similar in BTs, called Bully Rage, but it's been fairly successfully dealt with & is pretty rare now.

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 21:20

stig wrote: I read something last year about a disease that actually made dogs flip out and start attacking anything in site, the dog would be oblivious afterwards and become friendly again, I believe it affected the show line of some Spaniels, thats the kind of dog I would consider a lost cause (unless you had the dog muzzled and on a lead 24/7, which is no life for a dog)

Are you maybe thinking of the so-called "rage syndrome" which affected golden cocker spaniels?

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 21:21

It is or has been a problem in quite a few breeds, unfortunately. I'm glad an effort was made to get rid of it.

by canthavethat Fri Mar 22 2013, 23:09

This is the CM video that did it for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

can't even bring myself to watch it now. sickening. not allowed to write here what I really feel about this nasty piece of work angry

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 23:34

Poor dog was distressed & couldn't breathe. Its tongue had actually gone blue at one stage.

by Guest Fri Mar 22 2013, 23:37

Jeez that actually is quite hard to watch tbh...

by **DragonTheStaffie** Fri Mar 22 2013, 23:56

I see many people saying they don't like his methods etc and that his dogs live as a wild pack (which is true) but I honestly enjoy watching his show and I don't disagree with his methods, I never seen him kick any dog and I've watched nearly all the episodes, he uses his hands and it doesn't hurt the dog, he gives a touch to basically tell the dog to look at you.

Also he's not a dog trainer if you watch the show he says he trains people not dogs, most of the time if not all its the owners fault that their dog doesn't behave the way they want him too.

He's not all about powerful breeds, he likes powerful breeds but he's helped many dogs that in my eyes are not powerful, I have a soft spot for staffys and pitbulls which are considered powerful breeds, but that doesn't mean that i only like them type of dogs, Labradors are quite calm at least the ones I've met and have owned, and I love them.

I've actually used some methods that I see him using and have gotten great results, specially with the hand touching on his side, brings his attention back to me and snaps him out of whatever he's doing that I don't want, for example chasing my moms dog (Sasha) around to hump her, a touch on his side he stops and stays next to me. I only use it if he doesn't listen to his commands, it's understandable if he doesn't listen as he's excited and basically in his own world, which then with the touch snaps him out of it and he'll listen.

Everyone has their own opinion, I would never use any methods that it would hurt my boy, and ALL the methods I've seen Cesar use never hurt a dog.

And of course his pack is a wild pack, he has to many dogs and rescues to many dogs to have them all inside of his house spending every minute with them...

by Guest Sat Mar 23 2013, 01:46

That's fair enough, Joe, touching a dog to regain its attention is no big deal. But I've seen the video of a compilation of clips where he kicks the dogs, and in most of them they don't seem too bad, but in a few of them, he did apply force, and keep in mind it was the dog's stomach it was aimed at. He may be training people, not dogs, but his methods are all aimed at the dogs. It's the dogs that are being made to feel uncomfortable or fearful. It's obvious he loves dogs, and I've seen an episode where he didn't even mention dominance or submission, didn't once mention pack leaders or make the 'tsh' sound, he just helped the dog relax more when she was at sea, so yeah, he can help dogs. But his methods are outdated, and the person that came up with the pack leader theory has even said he was wrong. So how can his methods be right when they're based on something old-fashioned?

by Guest Sun Mar 24 2013, 10:12

DragonTheStaffie wrote:I see many people saying they don't like his methods etc and that his dogs live as a wild pack (which is true) but I honestly enjoy watching his show and I don't disagree with his methods, I never seen him kick any dog and I've watched nearly all the episodes, he uses his hands and it doesn't hurt the dog, he gives a touch to basically tell the dog to look at you.

Also he's not a dog trainer if you watch the show he says he trains people not dogs, most of the time if not all its the owners fault that their dog doesn't behave the way they want him too.

He's not all about powerful breeds, he likes powerful breeds but he's helped many dogs that in my eyes are not powerful, I have a soft spot for staffys and pitbulls which are considered powerful breeds, but that doesn't mean that i only like them type of dogs, Labradors are quite calm at least the ones I've met and have owned, and I love them.

I've actually used some methods that I see him using and have gotten great results, specially with the hand touching on his side, brings his attention back to me and snaps him out of whatever he's doing that I don't want, for example chasing my moms dog (Sasha) around to hump her, a touch on his side he stops and stays next to me. I only use it if he doesn't listen to his commands, it's understandable if he doesn't listen as he's excited and basically in his own world, which then with the touch snaps him out of it and he'll listen.

Everyone has their own opinion, I would never use any methods that it would hurt my boy, and ALL the methods I've seen Cesar use never hurt a dog.

And of course his pack is a wild pack, he has to many dogs and rescues to many dogs to have them all inside of his house spending every minute with them...

I've watched a lot of his episodes before, as well. However, some episodes aren't aired in the UK and some are pulled off the TV altogether due to bad reactions from audiences. So a lot of these controversial stuff isn't shown.

by Guest Sun Mar 24 2013, 11:23

DragonTheStaffie wrote:ALL the methods I've seen Cesar use never hurt a dog.

Joe, you see the things his PR people want you to see. I have also seen youtube videos (that were later pulled because his PR people realised they were there) where he has punched, kicked & e-shocked dogs. I've seen episodes where the dog he has worked with has become a quivering, frightened, peeing wreck. That's just not on.

DragonTheStaffie wrote:
And of course his pack is a wild pack, he has to many dogs and rescues to many dogs to have them all inside of his house spending every minute with them...

Dogs are no longer 'wild' and do not naturally run in packs anyway (unlike wolves), and to keep that many dogs in unnatural conditions is, in my opinion, totally wrong & bordering on cruelty.

by Bepackleader Sun Mar 24 2013, 18:02

I personally work with cesar and do the same work as him so I would advise you to follow what he does. Those who are against cesar dont have a clue

by Guest Sun Mar 24 2013, 18:03

Bepackleader wrote:I personally work with cesar and do the same work as him so I would advise you to follow what he does. Those who are against cesar dont have a clue

I found that comment to be rather ignorant. If you can't accept that others may not agree with certain methods, more fool to you.

by Guest Sun Mar 24 2013, 18:04

Personally work with Cesar? In what way?

by Guest Sun Mar 24 2013, 18:33

Bepackleader wrote:I personally work with cesar and do the same work as him so I would advise you to follow what he does. Those who are against cesar dont have a clue

I take it you mean that you follow his outdated methods?

by **rebeccaleanne** Sun Mar 24 2013, 21:20

Jeez that video not my cup of tea surely there are other methods to use, thats not dog whispering thats humane! Imagine if i started to 'choke' tyke out in the middle if the street id get picked up for animal cruelty!!

by canthavethat Sun Mar 24 2013, 22:04

Bepackleader wrote:I personally work with cesar and do the same work as him so I would advise you to follow what he does. Those who are against cesar dont have a clue

Hello. Your post is pretty unconvincing. I suspect you are just a troll, but if not, here is the same link I posted earlier in this thread. maybe you could start by explaining exactly why you think it's ok (or necessary) to treat an animal like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

I am open-minded and would be interested to hear what you have to say. Talk me through it. Humour me.

by Steviec Mon Mar 25 2013, 09:21

Eleanor wrote:
Bepackleader wrote:I personally work with cesar and do the same work as him so I would advise you to follow what he does. Those who are against cesar dont have a clue

I found that comment to be rather ignorant. If you can't accept that others may not agree with certain methods, more fool to you.

whilst i believe more in aliens than i do the first post, to be fair eleanor your post could be said to a few people on this site. if people do or do not agree with CM, it's a matter of opinion, not that you're right and someone elses wrong.

by Guest Mon Mar 25 2013, 09:40

Steviec wrote:
Eleanor wrote:
Bepackleader wrote:I personally work with cesar and do the same work as him so I would advise you to follow what he does. Those who are against cesar dont have a clue

I found that comment to be rather ignorant. If you can't accept that others may not agree with certain methods, more fool to you.

whilst i believe more in aliens than i do the first post, to be fair eleanor your post could be said to a few people on this site. if people do or do not agree with CM, it's a matter of opinion, not that you're right and someone elses wrong.

I think you should read through posts more carefully then. I've made it quite clear that I don't find fault in anybody who chooses to believe in Cesar Milan's methods - only that I myself disagree with them. Contrary to what you seem to think, not everything has to be about fighting it out in black and white.

by Steviec Mon Mar 25 2013, 10:04

Eleanor wrote:
Steviec wrote:
Eleanor wrote:
Bepackleader wrote:I personally work with cesar and do the same work as him so I would advise you to follow what he does. Those who are against cesar dont have a clue

I found that comment to be rather ignorant. If you can't accept that others may not agree with certain methods, more fool to you.

whilst i believe more in aliens than i do the first post, to be fair eleanor your post could be said to a few people on this site. if people do or do not agree with CM, it's a matter of opinion, not that you're right and someone elses wrong.

I think you should read through posts more carefully then. I've made it quite clear that I don't find fault in anybody who chooses to believe in Cesar Milan's methods - only that I myself disagree with them. Contrary to what you seem to think, not everything has to be about fighting it out in black and white.

sorry when I said "you're right and someone elses wrong" that wasn't aimed at you, i meant that in general. doh

by Guest Mon Mar 25 2013, 10:21

Ah, okay. Sorry for that. Tongues

by millygirl Tue Mar 26 2013, 00:48

Hi al Im new here and have a new staffy with fear aggression issues.
So by chance found caesars books and have posted my early quik results using his advice in book.
However I had no idea he used kicking.shock collars etc i wouldnt ever do/approve of that.
But like most ideas ...there are good and bad parts.
His basic advice about asserting me as pack leader has worked quickly to change round a situation where my dog could have attacked me..so quickly too and no kicks etc!

by millygirl Tue Mar 26 2013, 00:55

So Debs if you want to know what I have done to change my dog around let me know ...Im keen to hear tips experiences from others with fear aggression issues ...what works etc ( my girl was in the pound and attcked by other dogs)

I definitely feel more in contol of her when out and will get dog whisperer to do house call too. I have had dog in previous dog fight situation so I know I am fearful of this and dread it happening so passing this down lead to Milly.

We are walking on lead away from other dogs...as much as possible avoiding confrontations until I can get dog whisperer in ( its $300)

by Guest Tue Mar 26 2013, 01:20

millygirl wrote:So Debs if you want to know what I have done to change my dog around let me know ...Im keen to hear tips experiences from others with fear aggression issues ...what works etc ( my girl was in the pound and attcked by other dogs)

I definitely feel more in contol of her when out and will get dog whisperer to do house call too. I have had dog in previous dog fight situation so I know I am fearful of this and dread it happening so passing this down lead to Milly.

We are walking on lead away from other dogs...as much as possible avoiding confrontations until I can get dog whisperer in ( its $300)

If it's someone who uses Cesar Milan's techniques, I'm afraid it may well include kicking or shock collars, etc. Here's a video someone posted of him working on an aggressive dog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk

At the end of the day, all humans should be the boss of their dogs in the same way that a parent is the boss of their kids, because for everyone's safety and happiness, they have to be in charge and set rules. But that doesn't mean you have to be bossy or make your dog fearful of you or constantly submissive. At least, that's how I feel. Even if the pack leader theory was true (and the person who originally came up with it has taken it back), I think being a leader can be done gently, calmly and without giving the dog any fear at all.

If you want some advice on your issues, feel free to make a new topic explaining the problem in detail, and people can advise you on some techniques that may help, without the use of a trainer/behaviourist Smile

by millygirl Tue Mar 26 2013, 02:02

Thanks Tara
No they dont use any pain/fear techniques, and llike I said i wouln't use those ways either. I have always had dogs and love them too much.
But like i said, there is often some good points with anything/anyone. So I can only speak from my experience with Caesar's tehniques that it has turned my dog around so far and without any pain or bad control involved.

by **bullsmommy1** Tue Mar 26 2013, 18:00

He's brilliant that's all I'm saying, :-)

by millygirl Tue Mar 26 2013, 22:59

Have to agree thanks...c( not the kcking part) certainly we have powerful dogs and they are loved very much, but we need to be in control of them.
One of my sons tried to separate an old staffy cross lab that had grown up with my son...not one sign of biting...one day when I was out started fight with our other old spaniel...he had a broken thumb crushed in old females jaws! No incidents after...

by Guest Wed Mar 27 2013, 01:25

Being in control & being a pack leader are two different things.

Your dog needs to know that he must do what you say, but that can be taught with firm kindness rather than dominance.

by Billybunter Wed Mar 27 2013, 11:05

Either way caryll it sounds the same to me pack leader/control its the same you have one person stood tall as the boss as the rule maker

by Guest Wed Mar 27 2013, 11:08

No, it really isn't the same.

And punishment rarely gets a good result with dogs.

by Guest Wed Mar 27 2013, 11:09

Billybunter wrote:Either way caryll it sounds the same to me pack leader/control its the same you have one person stood tall as the boss as the rule maker

I think control can be exercised without the need for enforcing pack behaviour. For example, in my opinion, a dog may know that the owner is boss, despite the fact that the owners may not eat first every day or walk through doorways first. Smile

by **Rupertsbooks** Mon Apr 01 2013, 20:38

There is a guy in my local park who has both his staffy crosses under supreme control. I've never quite seen anything like it. He never ever puts them on a lead and they cross very busy roads etc without incident. I asked him who he used and he said CM. He said his dogs had been very bitey before and his girlfriend was very against disciplining them. However, this bloke went for the CM approach and it has worked. However, what I did notice about this guy is that he is very macho and likes that swaggering thing of "I don't need a lead." I've never seen him being affectionate with his dogs and they come across a bit like robots when I meet them. You can't really get through to them.

My dog is very annoying sometimes. Today he was very hyper for example. I do need to do further training and I will investigate CM's techniques. However, I love the spirit, the enthusiasm, the affection of my dog and I wouldn't want in any way to crush that.

I think different people have very different relationships with their dogs and want different things from them.

I'm going to watch some Cesar now.

by jamesbeil Mon Apr 01 2013, 22:33

I've just watched that video of Cesar with Shadow and frankly I'm appalled. The basic theory - be in charge, let your dog know who's boss - that makes sense, of course it does.

But seeing a dog go blue in the tongue and collapse, now that's just not bloody well on, and if I saw someone doing that to a dog I'd cross the street and give them a tongue lashing.

I'm no expert, but I seem to have a happy, healthy dog who knows who's boss, and I can trust him on and off the lead, and I've not had to do anything approaching what I just saw. I don't give a fiddle how successful his methods are, a man that can do that to a dog, even with the best of intentions, really shouldn't be giving out advice.

by Guest Mon Apr 01 2013, 22:36

jamesbeil wrote:a man that can do that to a dog, even with the best of intentions, really shouldn't be giving out advice.

I agree with you there.

I wish the people who still follow the Pack Leader Theory would read the comments made by the man who originally coined the phrase. He accepts that his own research was fatally flawed and based on a non standard wolf pack.

by Guest Mon Apr 01 2013, 22:37

jamesbeil wrote:I've just watched that video of Cesar with Shadow and frankly I'm appalled. The basic theory - be in charge, let your dog know who's boss - that makes sense, of course it does.

But seeing a dog go blue in the tongue and collapse, now that's just not bloody well on, and if I saw someone doing that to a dog I'd cross the street and give them a tongue lashing.

I'm no expert, but I seem to have a happy, healthy dog who knows who's boss, and I can trust him on and off the lead, and I've not had to do anything approaching what I just saw. I don't give a fiddle how successful his methods are, a man that can do that to a dog, even with the best of intentions, really shouldn't be giving out advice.

Just liked your post. thumbs up

by Guest Tue Apr 02 2013, 02:16

Rupertsbooks wrote:There is a guy in my local park who has both his staffy crosses under supreme control. I've never quite seen anything like it. He never ever puts them on a lead and they cross very busy roads etc without incident. I asked him who he used and he said CM. He said his dogs had been very bitey before and his girlfriend was very against disciplining them. However, this bloke went for the CM approach and it has worked. However, what I did notice about this guy is that he is very macho and likes that swaggering thing of "I don't need a lead." I've never seen him being affectionate with his dogs and they come across a bit like robots when I meet them. You can't really get through to them.

My dog is very annoying sometimes. Today he was very hyper for example. I do need to do further training and I will investigate CM's techniques. However, I love the spirit, the enthusiasm, the affection of my dog and I wouldn't want in any way to crush that.

I think different people have very different relationships with their dogs and want different things from them.

I'm going to watch some Cesar now.

I know a guy with an American Bulldog x Boxer who's extremely well-behaved, never has to be on the lead (on the lead at roads for safety though) and is very friendly, but still has his personality and spirit, because the guy's used positive reinforcement. You can train your dogs to listen to you and be well-behaved without breaking their spirit, and to me, if you use such harsh methods that the dog basically turns into a robot following commands but with no real personality, it's not even worth it. I'd rather have a dog with issues than one that does whatever I say because I've forced it into submission.

by Guest Tue Apr 02 2013, 02:33

Well said Tara applause

by RichieSBT Tue Apr 02 2013, 03:50

tara pretty much nailed it

my parents have had dogs my entire life and all of them have been exceptionally well trained yet still retained their personalities. all through training with positive reinforcement. and not using fear, punishment or physical abuse.

theres a huge difference between a dog respecting you and a dog fearing you.
id rather have a companion than a servant

having a dog is pointless if it basically acts like a robot its entire life.
if you want something that sits there, quietly behaving until you decide that you want a cuddle or to play then buy a teddybear.

any "affection" you get from a dog who is trained harshly will only ever be born of fear and obligation.

imagine having to live each day for he rest of your life with a person and constantly having to think "id better do as he says or he'll hit me". being constantly on edge.
no thanks.
yes, i know, dogs arent humans but the fact is that they clearly have feelings (although not as complex as ours) and yes, i agree that we need to be the boss but that can easily be acheived without punishing and scaring a dog.

I couldnt even watch all of that video posted earlier. if id have seen that happening id have broken that cretins fingers off and punched them down his throat angry

i'll admit that some of the methods he uses yield good results
but a lot of them could be substituted with far better and kinder methods in my opinion.

if cesars harsh methods have worked for you. then good for you
i'm just happy in the knowledge that my dog will "obey" me because pleasing me makes him happy, not because he fears me.

by **Galadriel** Tue Apr 02 2013, 07:44

In behavioural science...

Positive (+) = to add something
Negative (-) = to take something away
Reinforcement = to increase the likelihood of a behaviour happening again
Punishment = to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour happening again

Dogs do what works.

Positive reinforcement - adds something the dog likes to increase the likelihood of the behaviour being repeated like a treat for a sit.

Negative reinforcement - removing something the dog doesn't like to increase the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated like strangling a dog with a choke chain until he stops struggling.

Positive punishment - adding something the dog doesn't like to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated like a kick to the rear end if the dog jumps up.

Negative punishment - taking away something the dog likes to decrease the likelihood of a behaviour being repeated like ignoring your dog (taking away attention) when he jumps up.

Only two of the above are humane IMO and they are positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Unfortunately outdated trainers like CM use negative reinforcement and positive punishment too.

Yes those old fashioned and cruel training methods work on many dogs, whilst the human is there because the dog is afraid to carry out the behaviour for fear of a punishment being applied. They have been beaten into submission. Only trouble is, if the human isn't there then they'll probably carry on doing what you don't want them to do because dogs don't know wrong from right, they only know what is safe or good for dogs or what is dangerous or not good for dogs,.

Not only is negative reinforcement and positive punishment less effective than positive reinforcement and negative punishment, it harms the bond between human and dog. Dogs become afraid of their humans instead of being confident in the knowledge that humans only mean good things for dogs.

If you're reading this and still think CM's methods are OK then do your dogs a favour and read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson! Smile

by **Galadriel** Tue Apr 02 2013, 07:51

Here's and extract from The Culture Clash:

Imagine you live on a planet where the dominant species is far more intellectually sophisticated than human beings but often keep humans as companion animals. They are called the Gorns. They communicate with each other via a combination of telepathy, eye movements and high-pitched squeaks, unintelligible and unlearnable by humans, whose brains are prepared for verbal language acquisition only. What humans sometimes learn is the meaning of individual sounds by repeated association with things of relevance to them. The Gorns and humans bond strongly but there are many Gorn rules that humans must try to assimilate with limited information and usually high stakes.

You are one of the lucky humans who lives with the Gorns in their dwelling. Many other humans are chained to small cabanas in the yard or kept in outdoor pens of varying size. They have become so socially starved that they cannot control their emotions when a Gorn goes near them. Because of this behaviour, the Gorns agree that they could never be house humans. They are too excitable.

The dwelling you share with your Gorn family is fitted with numerous water-filled porcelain bowls, complete with flushers. Every time you try to urinate in one, though, any nearby Gorn attacks you. You learn to only use the toilet when there are no Gorns present. Sometimes they come home and stuff your head down the toilet for no apparent reason. You hate this and start sucking up to the Gorns when they come home to try and stave this off but they view this as increasing evidence of your guilt.

You are also punished for watching videos, reading certain books, talking to other human beings, eating pizza or cheesecake, and writing letters. These are all considered behaviour problems by the Gorns. To avoid going crazy, once again you wait until they are not around to try doing anything you with to do. While they are around, you sit quietly, staring straight ahead. Because they witness this good behaviour you are so obviously capable of, they attribute to “spite” the video watching and other transgressions that occur when you are alone. Obviously you resent being left alone, they figure. You are walked several times a day and left crossword-puzzle books to do. You have never used them because you hate crosswords; the Gorns think you’re ignoring them out of revenge.

Worst of all, you like them. They are, after all, often nice to you. But when you smile at them, they punish you, likewise for shaking hands. If you apologize, they punish you again. You have not seen another human since you were a small child. When you see one on the street you are curious, excited and sometimes afraid. You really don’t know how to act. So, the Gorn you live with keeps you away from other humans. Your social skills never develop.

Top Ten Behaviour Problems of Pet Humans on Planet Gorn
Watching TV
Use of water-filled porcelain bowls as elimination sites
Listening to music other than Country & Western
Talking to other humans
Smoking
Sitting on chairs (“How can I get him to stop sitting on CHAIRS?!”)
Toothbrushing
Eating anything but (nutritionally balanced) Human Chow
Shaking hands to greet
Smiling

Finally, you are brought to training school. A large part of the training consists of having your air briefly cut off by a metal chain around your neck. They are sure you understand every squeak and telepathic communication they make because you sometimes get it right. You are guessing and hate the training. You feel stressed out a lot of the time.

One day, you see a Gorn approaching with the training collar in hand. You have PMS, a sore neck and you just don’t feel up to the baffling coercion about to ensue. You tell them in your sternest voice to please leave you alone and go away. The Gorns are shocked by this unprovoked aggressive behaviour. They thought you had a good temperament.

They put you in one of their vehicles and take you for a drive. You watch the attractive planetary landscape going by and wonder where you are going. The vehicle stops and you are led into a building filled with the smell of human sweat and excrement. Humans are everywhere in small cages. Some are nervous, some depressed, most watch the goings on from their prisons. Your Gorns, with whom you have lived your entire life, hand you over to strangers who drag you to a small room. You are terrified and yell for your Gorn family to help you. They turn and walk out the door of the building. You are held down and given a lethal injection. It is, after all, the humane way to do it.

This nightmarish world is the one inhabited by many domestic dogs all the time. Virtaully all natural dog behaviours – chewing, barking, rough play, chasing moving objects, eating food items within reach, jumping up to access faces, settling disputes with threat displays, establishing contact with strange dogs, guarding resources, leaning into steady pressure against their necks, urinating on porous surfaces like carpets, defending themselves from perceived threat – are considered by humans to be behaviour problems. The rules that seem so obvious to us make absolutely no sense to dogs. They are not humans in dog suits…

It is as inherently obvious to dogs that furniture, clothing and car interiors are good for chewing as it is inherently obvious to you that TV sets are good for watching. If I reprimand you for watching the TV, your most likely course of action is to simply watch TV when I’m not around… Housetraining is another classic example… Owners interpret dogs who “refuse” to eliminate on walks and then go on the carpet when the owner leaves the room to answer the phone as “getting back at them”. Absolutely not so. The dog has simply learned to go to the bathroom on an obvious toilet – the carpet – when the attacker is not present.

He behaves obsequiously on the owner’s return to try and turn off the punishment that inevitably occurs when certain context cues (owner plus poop on rug) are present. It is clear from his terrified, submissive posture that the dog would dearly love to avoid that punishment if only he knew how. If someone punished you in a certain circumstance, you would beg for mercy too, regardless of whether you had any clue as to why they were about to punish you. It’s Orwellian what we do to dogs.

by Pink_Floyd Tue Apr 02 2013, 07:55

Another vote for the Culture Clash here!

Yes positive reinforcement training takes longer than negative but if it takes me another few months to get Floyd trained to standard I want then a few months it will take, I will never use negative reinforcement or aversive training. Wouldn't want to lose an ounce of his HUGE personality.

by Guest Tue Apr 02 2013, 08:04

Galadriel, thanks for posting that. I already know that things dogs do we don't want them to do are natural things to them, but it brings it to another level when it's explained from our point of view.

by **Galadriel** Tue Apr 02 2013, 08:20

It does doesn't it?

That extract brings a tear to my eye because that is exactly what it's like for so many dogs, living in complete confusion and fear and all because so many humans think they have to intimidate and 'be the pack leader'. Sad

by **Galadriel** Tue Apr 02 2013, 08:42

Pink_Floyd wrote:Another vote for the Culture Clash here!

Yes positive reinforcement training takes longer than negative but if it takes me another few months to get Floyd trained to standard I want then a few months it will take, I will never use negative reinforcement or aversive training. Wouldn't want to lose an ounce of his HUGE personality.

Just picked up on this.

Actually, +/R (positive reinforcement) and -/P (negative punishment) training methods don't take longer, that's the beauty of them, they're kinder, foster a better bond and tend to be quicker! Especially if you're using a marker like a clicker.

You have to be incredibly accurate to deliver an effective aversive/positive punishment for it to be effective and most people don't have quick enough reactions! Like when people use chock chains, by the time the chain is tight enough for the dog to realise, the behaviour has passed and the dog doesn't even know what it was being punished for.

by Pink_Floyd Tue Apr 02 2013, 10:50

We do use a clicker with Floyd and its great, although I feel need one in every pocket and room of the house to capture the best behaviours! There is no need for choke chains or yelling at your dog, the last thing we need to strengthen with Floyd is a solid 'drop' as he's the destroyer of other dog's balls at the park and it's a tough one to proof at home as nothing is high value enough!

Anyway, the power of the clicker in pavlovian conditioning is shown best in the anecdote where the Labrador is conditioned to love fetching...that's next on the list after 'drop'!

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