caesar milan

First topic message reminder :

I was wondering what you think of Caesar Milan? I have heard good and bad reports on his training methods. Opinions please

The last few posts are very valuable - I particularly like the following quote...

"Only two of the above are humane IMO and they are positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Unfortunately outdated trainers like CM use negative reinforcement and positive punishment too."

Sums it up nicely.

Pink_Floyd wrote:We do use a clicker with Floyd and its great, although I feel need one in every pocket and room of the house to capture the best behaviours! There is no need for choke chains or yelling at your dog, the last thing we need to strengthen with Floyd is a solid 'drop' as he's the destroyer of other dog's balls at the park and it's a tough one to proof at home as nothing is high value enough!

Anyway, the power of the clicker in pavlovian conditioning is shown best in the anecdote where the Labrador is conditioned to love fetching...that's next on the list after 'drop'!

Haha I found tug is a good way to teach drop if it's any help. Every 10/20 seconds they have to drop and the drop is rewarded by beginning the tug game again. Both of mine really love tug though so perhaps that's why it's worked so well for me.

Caryll wrote:The last few posts are very valuable - I particularly like the following quote...

"Only two of the above are humane IMO and they are positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Unfortunately outdated trainers like CM use negative reinforcement and positive punishment too."

Sums it up nicely.

I've now watched a couple of the videos. Especially when he started out, the dogs were not massive problem cases (see Jack Russell and Chihuahua). He definitely helped them and their families who really couldn't see any other way out of their dog's behaviour than have them put down. I think audiences liek more and more dramatic cases, though. So CM is dealing with a lot of very extreme cases. I also think that this dominance thing appeals to a certain type of person who likes the macho approach and perhaps they misinterpret it or perhaps go too far. I am personally not capable - it's just not my character at home or at work or whatever - to be domineering so I can't keep the aggression up. I can be strict, though, which is another thing.

Obviously I don't think that electrocuting a dog is good or even necessarily effective. However, something like 200 dogs get put down in this country a week. If I were a dog, I'd rather spend a couple of days with CM learning to live more tranquilly with my owner, than be killed. Perhaps CM's programs have encouraged more people not to give up on their dogs? There is no one higher profile - I don't think Barbara Woodhouse dealt with the same situations!.

As for humane - I personally still struggle with the idea of castration even though it is "good" for a dog in many (most) ways and Rupes has been done.

One more thing: the guy in my park who uses the CM approach often tells me his dogs are obedient because "they would * themselves if they didn't. I come down hard on them when they misbehave." I am not that kind of person, it doesn't and has never appealed to me in any context and the kind of lessons I would take from CM would be the ones that are more typically "me." i.e. blocking my dog with my foot if he is bursting to run into the park and needs to slow down and listen to me.

But I think that being domineering appeals to this bloke and he would be like this no matter what. Do his dogs behave? Yes. Would they have lived had he not turned them around? Very unlikely. He's not cruel - as I have seen lots of dog owners be (leave their dog outside all day and never walk them for example) just very macho. He does seem to love them. It's a complicated issue.

Rupertsbooks wrote: However, something like 200 dogs get put down in this country a week. If I were a dog, I'd rather spend a couple of days with CM learning to live more tranquilly with my owner, than be killed.

The trouble with that is that if you train a dog through fear/pain/dominance, then he is only doing what you ask because he is scared/in pain/subdued. Eventually most dogs will overcome their fears & then what?

Rupertsbooks wrote:the guy in my park who uses the CM approach often tells me his dogs are obedient because "they would * themselves if they didn't. I come down hard on them when they misbehave."

Training through fear/pain/dominance. In certain situations the dogs may well overcome that & attack the person who has caused them pain & fear.

Rupertsbooks wrote: He's not cruel - as I have seen lots of dog owners be (leave their dog outside all day and never walk them for example) just very macho. He does seem to love them. It's a complicated issue.

But he is cruel. He has terrified his dogs into doing what he wants. They don't misbehave because they are in abject terror of him! Maybe he does love them in some strange way, but he isn't doing the best for them.

I know there are many, many manifestations of cruelty - training in this way is just one of them.