Head size

Hi guys,

My boy Harley is now 6.5 months old and is growing, growing, growing. He looks a little gangly at the moment but I am sure he will fill out. One thing that I have noticed is that his head is not growing proportionately with his body. When he was a pup, his head was well proportioned with his body but it seems his body has all of a sudden hit a big growth spurt but his head is not really keeping up. I had a good look at his parents and his father was a big boy with a big head, and his mother although feminine had a decent head too. Now Harley does not have pedigree papers, the people who we bought him from owned both parents and they gave us copies of parents pedigree papers so we can see the bloodlines.

Harley was desexed at 4 months, our vet from the RSPCA recomended it based on their practices and Harleys behaviour at this age. He was humping everything and was continually trying to be dominant over my young boys, humping them and growling at them.

Could desexing at this early age have affected the development of his head? Either way, I love my boy and would not swap him for any other dog....... Just want to get everyones opinions.

PS there are some pics of Harley posted in the introductions section.

Pics of Harley are here

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t25108-hi-guys

If they are recent pics, I wouldn't worry! He looks like a six month old pup, and will continue to grow. The thing to remember is staffs come in all manner of shapes and sizes. Stop worrying and just enjoy him

Mine is 6.5 months as well and looks pretty much the same size... Remember that there skull splits around now to 10 months. You should notice a difference as that happens. I think mine is a late developer though as his balls haven't fully dropped yet.

At least he has balls!!! Lol.
My boy is desexed. And that's what I'm worried about, did I desex him too early? Not only for head development but overall physical and psychological development. Do dogs know the difference between a desexed and non-desexed dog? Does this affect a desexed dog when they socialize. I must say though, my boy is a gentleman with other dogs, very polite, let's the other dogs smell his bits without getting aggressive.

Dan330 wrote:Mine is 6.5 months as well and looks pretty much the same size... Remember that there skull splits around now to 10 months. You should notice a difference as that happens. I think mine is a late developer though as his balls haven't fully dropped yet.

.. their sculls DO NOT SPLIT !!!

He looks great to me, they grow at different rates, all legs and paws but it soon catches up with itself. Just to mention there heads don't split but there muscles develop which gives the indent in the skull

janey wrote:
He looks great to me, they grow at different rates, all legs and paws but it soon catches up with itself. Just to mention there heads don't split but there muscles develop which gives the indent in the skull

Sorry to be anal about it Janey .. but there isnt any indent in the scull as such, it is literally where the two huge jaw mucles meet creating a furrow thats looks like the head is almost two halves .. the muscles need to be fairly developed before it becomes obvious

Andy wrote:

Dan330 wrote:Mine is 6.5 months as well and looks pretty much the same size... Remember that there skull splits around now to 10 months. You should notice a difference as that happens. I think mine is a late developer though as his balls haven't fully dropped yet.

.. their sculls DO NOT SPLIT !!!

Sorry if I was a little blunt here .. but this one is right up there with "locking jaws" for me

Andy wrote: .. their sculls DO NOT SPLIT !!!

Its a term of phrase... easier than saying increased muscle mass resulting in a more pronounced grove ibn the top of there head.

Dan330 wrote:

Andy wrote: .. their sculls DO NOT SPLIT !!!

Its a term of phrase... easier than saying increased muscle mass resulting in a more pronounced grove ibn the top of there head.

Fair enough ... but you must be aware that there are LOADS of ppl out there who dont realise its a "term of phrase"

Harley wrote:At least he has balls!!! Lol.
My boy is desexed. And that's what I'm worried about, did I desex him too early? Not only for head development but overall physical and psychological development. Do dogs know the difference between a desexed and non-desexed dog? Does this affect a desexed dog when they socialize. I must say though, my boy is a gentleman with other dogs, very polite, let's the other dogs smell his bits without getting aggressive.

Well, from the other thread on neutering you will know my views on that.

Early neutering (to me that means any age less than 18 months) can & does affect growth. At 6 months it's hard to tell what the eventual effect will be. He is certainly very 'leggy' at the moment, but that could either be the neutering or a growth spurt. I wouldn't worry about his head - that will 'catch up' with his body in time. Staffs often don't get their final head shape/size till they're about 18 months or so, so plenty of time.

Neutered dogs don't seem to know the difference, but other entire dogs can often 'pick on' a neutered dog.

I agree, I think Harley is leggy at the moment. One thing I noticed when he was a pup was he always had massive paws. I think he is gonna be a big dog( like his father who was also tall but muscular and had a large round head.

I think he will eventually fill out even though he will probably be taller and leggier than the standard staffy. He has 2 other staffy friends at the park. One is an 8 month boy who is shorter, stockier and has a bigger head. he is also desexed and they get on very well. Harley was also playing with a 2 year old cattle dog who was not neutered and they had a ball together. So I think it's fair to say that one cannot generalize on the topic of the effect of neutering.

Also, I'd like to correct you on one thing. You stated that he is leggy and this could be because of the early neutering or a growth spurt. There is a third possibility, and that is that he may be that way genetically and thats the way he will end up.

Either way, he is not a show dog and won't lose any marks for it in my household ;-).

Harley wrote: So I think it's fair to say that one cannot generalize on the topic of the effect of neutering.

I think all you can do is generalise! There's no hard & fast, convincing, answer either way! Medically, an early neutered dog will be leggier/narrower than an un neutered, or later neutered dog - that isn't in doubt as the growth plates start to close once sufficient levels of testosterone etc are present. Without the introduction of 'puberty' hormones the growth plates close much later, resulting in longer legs & narrower body.

Harley wrote:Also, I'd like to correct you on one thing. You stated that he is leggy and this could be because of the early neutering or a growth spurt. There is a third possibility, and that is that he may be that way genetically and thats the way he will end up.

Either way, he is not a show dog and won't lose any marks for it in my household ;-).

Sure, if either of his parents are leggy, then that could be the case.

Medically in relation to growth plates yes, behaviourly no.

Not much supporting research
Of the concerns listed above, Dr. Olson and Dr. Bowen acknowledged that increased urinary incontinence is a well-known and well-documented side effect of sterilization in females. But both expressed doubt that the growth-plate issue is a cause for concern.

“That sounds bogus to me,” says Dr. Bowen. “Yes, if you do castration before growth plate closure, it will delay (the closure) so the animals will be slightly larger. But it’s a minor change. For example, one study showed that if a bitch is not spayed, the growth plates close at 42 weeks; if she was spayed at 7 weeks, the closure occurred at 60 weeks.”

“It’s something they determine in millimeters in X-rays – it’s minuscule,” agrees Dr. Olson.

Neither was convinced you could draw a compelling link between the growth-plate closure issue and subsequent problems such as fractures. We were unable to find any veterinarian who was familiar with the data about cardiac tumors and sterilization.
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/7_9/features/Spaying-and-Neuturing_15649-1.html

All I'm going to say is wow 11 weeks, that's very sad

11 weeks is an error.

Born 4th April

Desexed 10th August. So 4 months or approx 18 weeks.

Why is it sad? Do you know the dog? How can you make such a statement without knowing if the dog is happy. I can assure you he is a happy boy, is well loved, and socializes with other dogs daily. Your statement was made without any regard to any of this. And all this from a moderator.

ella wrote:All I'm going to say is wow 11 weeks, that's very sad

Its not sad, I'm sure the dog will be loved whatever and have a wonderful life... It won't know any different. The pictures of him are great!

I always fined dogs that have been fixed dont have the same muscle mass as dogs that have not been done, so dont grow as big

Harley wrote: “Yes, if you do castration before growth plate closure, it will delay (the closure) so the animals will be slightly larger. But it’s a minor change. For example, one study showed that if a bitch is not spayed, the growth plates close at 42 weeks; if she was spayed at 7 weeks, the closure occurred at 60 weeks.”

“It’s something they determine in millimeters in X-rays – it’s minuscule,” agrees Dr. Olson.

Neither was convinced you could draw a compelling link between the growth-plate closure issue and subsequent problems such as fractures. We were unable to find any veterinarian who was familiar with the data about cardiac tumors and sterilization.

I don't remember anyone saying anything about the delay in closure of the growth plates causing fractures!

The vet I use is the head vet of Moulton Agricultural College, so he's pretty well up on most things. He told me, when Dempsey was 9 weeks old, that in a breed his size (EBT, so slightly bigger than a staff) the delayed closure could mean an increase in leg length of around 4.5cm - that's nearly 2 inches (I would think that, for a staff, the figure would probably be around 2.5 or 3cm), and would be accompanied by a narrower body. That's from a vet who lectures for degree students. I'm not saying the dog would be unhealthy or any less loved than an un neutered dog, just that the delay in growth plate closure does make a difference.

As far as I'm aware, though, it does not affect the size of the dog's head.

Harley wrote:11 weeks is an error.

Born 4th April

Desexed 10th August. So 4 months or approx 18 weeks.

Why is it sad? Do you know the dog? How can you make such a statement without knowing if the dog is happy. I can assure you he is a happy boy, is well loved, and socializes with other dogs daily. Your statement was made without any regard to any of this. And all this from a moderator.

because that dog is a baby and that is unbelievingly young to neuter a dog and i do not agree with it what so ever.

makes no difference if i'm a mod at all, i do not believe in neutering and certainly not in a dog under 18 months

My statement 'sad' has nothing to do with the dog feeling sad, it's sad that he was neutered so early BIG difference FFS

We all have our opinions on neutering and we all differ, hugely. Lets discuss nicely or agree to disagree.

janey wrote:

We all have our opinions on neutering and we all differ, hugely. Lets discuss nicely or agree to disagree.

The neutering debate will always cause hot discussions. None of us is totally right or totally wrong - we just need to discuss & share opinions calmly & politely.

So you are feeling melancholic that my boy was neutered at 4 months because now his legs will be longer? Possibly up to 3 cm longer according to your vet who as you have explained is suitably qualified to make such a statements. Even though my post above quotes other "suitably qualified vets" who are quoting studies who say the heaight difference is only detectable in X-rays as in the "millimeters"

Sorry, but your comments are nothing more that self serving, you have an opinion and want to show everyone that your opinion matters most. You have given no compelling reason or a suitable explanation as to why someone should feel "sad" regarding a pup being neutered at 4 months. I have provided you with reasons why you "shouldn't" feel sad, being my boy is healthy and happy so there don't seem to be any ill effects from the process. In fact I have put forward positive effects both in this post and the neutering post. So if this makes you sad, perhaps you should explore other reasons for this sadness as I assure you my boy only brings happiness to me and my family.

So next time you feel like commenting I think you should leave the emotions out of it and stick to the facts.

Harley wrote:So you are feeling melancholic that my boy was neutered at 4 months because now his legs will be longer? Possibly up to 3 cm longer according to your vet who as you have explained is suitably qualified to make such a statements. Even though my post above quotes other "suitably qualified vets" who are quoting studies who say the heaight difference is only detectable in X-rays as in the "millimeters"

Sorry, but your comments are nothing more that self serving, you have an opinion and want to show everyone that your opinion matters most. You have given no compelling reason or a suitable explanation as to why someone should feel "sad" regarding a pup being neutered at 4 months. I have provided you with reasons why you "shouldn't" feel sad, being my boy is healthy and happy so there don't seem to be any ill effects from the process. In fact I have put forward positive effects both in this post and the neutering post. So if this makes you sad, perhaps you should explore other reasons for this sadness as I assure you my boy only brings happiness to me and my family.

So next time you feel like commenting I think you should leave the emotions out of it and stick to the facts.

What the hell are you on about?

I am sticking to the facts, this is a forum everyone has an opinion and have a right to express it, and guess what i don't care if you don't like mine, i'm still gonna say it

As mentioned by others, there is evidence on both sides. You have taken one side and frankly I couldn't care less. I have made a decision based on my knowledge and research, recommendations by our vet and our dogs "individual " temperament.

I don't object to you reciting facts. To say you are saddened is not necessary. You are implying I have done something to hurt my dog. Keep your emotions to yourself, debate the issue and don't get personal.

Harley wrote:So you are feeling melancholic that my boy was neutered at 4 months because now his legs will be longer? Possibly up to 3 cm longer according to your vet who as you have explained is suitably qualified to make such a statements. Even though my post above quotes other "suitably qualified vets" who are quoting studies who say the heaight difference is only detectable in X-rays as in the "millimeters"

Sorry, but your comments are nothing more that self serving, you have an opinion and want to show everyone that your opinion matters most. You have given no compelling reason or a suitable explanation as to why someone should feel "sad" regarding a pup being neutered at 4 months. I have provided you with reasons why you "shouldn't" feel sad, being my boy is healthy and happy so there don't seem to be any ill effects from the process. In fact I have put forward positive effects both in this post and the neutering post. So if this makes you sad, perhaps you should explore other reasons for this sadness as I assure you my boy only brings happiness to me and my family.

So next time you feel like commenting I think you should leave the emotions out of it and stick to the facts.

And maybe next time you could attribute your quotes to the correct members? The posts about the vet and size were by me, not Ella. And the post that mentioned 'sad' were by Ella, not me.

You asked certain questions but you are not prepared to listen to the answers unless they vindicate you.

That's fine. Up to you, as you so rightly say.

Harley wrote:As mentioned by others, there is evidence on both sides. You have taken one side and frankly I couldn't care less. I have made a decision based on my knowledge and research, recommendations by our vet and our dogs "individual " temperament.

I don't object to you reciting facts. To say you are saddened is not necessary. You are implying I have done something to hurt my dog. Keep your emotions to yourself, debate the issue and don't get personal.

OMG this is getting on my nerves.

Right you are clearly not from the UK. When i used the word 'sad' in that sentence it has nothing to do with the feeling of being sad. When i used it it meant 'pathetic, wrong, i don't agree with it'

I am certainly not saddened by something that will never affect me.

Ok got it, good.

ETA: you don't know me very well, but a little tip. Do not try and tell what i can and cannot say or do either.

OK Peeps getting a little out of hand now

Harley , I am a little confused as you made the post looking for opinions and advice , however youy just seem to counter every opinion with an argument

Do you want advice and opinions or a debate ??

Yeah id love opinions but have only received a few about the topic. The topic was head size, not neutering. I am active in the neutering post so any comments about that could have been on that post rather than hijacking this one.

Sorry I did misquote Caryll, I am sorry.

Harley wrote:Yeah id love opinions but have only received a few about the topic. The topic was head size, not neutering. I am active in the neutering post so any comments about that could have been on that post rather than hijacking this one.

But you did ask about early neutering in the opening post in this thread.....

Harley wrote:Could desexing at this early age have affected the development of his head? Either way, I love my boy and would not swap him for any other dog....... Just want to get everyones opinions.

I also said that early neutering wouldn't affect his head growth.

Harley wrote:Yeah id love opinions but have only received a few about the topic. The topic was head size, not neutering. I am active in the neutering post so any comments about that could have been on that post rather than hijacking this one.

Sorry I did misquote Caryll, I am sorry.

Well they sort of intermingle because the topic is about head size and could it have been affected by early neutering so can't really blame people for input and must admit I was like when I saw 11 weeks but as you say it's a mistake. My personal opinion is that Tommy won't be done before 2 years and it is purely personal . As Caryll says there are several hot topics that will spark reaction and you discovered one of them tonight

Right no early neutering won't affect his head size, that will be down to his genes and will probably be similar to his parents.

Early neutering can effect the overall size and muscle mass he will develop as he matures though.

Harley wrote:Yeah id love opinions but have only received a few about the topic. The topic was head size, not neutering. I am active in the neutering post so any comments about that could have been on that post rather than hijacking this one.

Sorry I did misquote Caryll, I am sorry.

Caryll wrote:

Harley wrote:Yeah id love opinions but have only received a few about the topic. The topic was head size, not neutering. I am active in the neutering post so any comments about that could have been on that post rather than hijacking this one.

But you did ask about early neutering in the opening post in this thread.....

Harley wrote:Could desexing at this early age have affected the development of his head? Either way, I love my boy and would not swap him for any other dog....... Just want to get everyones opinions.

I also said that early neutering wouldn't affect his head growth.

Dave wrote:

Harley wrote:Yeah id love opinions but have only received a few about the topic. The topic was head size, not neutering. I am active in the neutering post so any comments about that could have been on that post rather than hijacking this one.

Sorry I did misquote Caryll, I am sorry.

Well they sort of intermingle because the topic is about head size and could it have been affected by early neutering so can't really blame people for input and must admit I was like when I saw 11 weeks but as you say it's a mistake. My personal opinion is that Tommy won't be done before 2 years and it is purely personal . As Caryll says there are several hot topics that will spark reaction and you discovered one of them tonight

ella wrote:Right no early neutering won't affect his head size, that will be down to his genes and will probably be similar to his parents.

Early neutering can effect the overall size and muscle mass he will develop as he matures though.

Thanks everyone now we're back on track big forum >< ><

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I agree with Janey, let's agree to disagree.

And neutering early is more common here in the US than I sense from most of our members who are mostly from the UK.

I think the issues which generate the most controversy are the ones where there are good and bad points on both sides, right?

micheled wrote:I agree with Janey, let's agree to disagree.

And neutering early is more common here in the US than I sense from most of our members who are mostly from the UK.

I think the issues which generate the most controversy are the ones where there are good and bad points on both sides, right?

I agree.. Here in Australia it is really pushed upon you to have them done and do it young... I had to be firm with my vet when I told her I wasn't getting Steff done til she was older.. She made me feel like an irresponsible dog owner coz I didn't want to book her in to be spayed at 4 months old..

I don't want to argue. Didn't know this was such a sensitive topic.

So in conclusion

Head size not affected by neutering
Muscle mass is
Length of legs possibly
Everyone loves their dogs and makes decisions that they believe are in the best interest of their beloved. The topic of neutering polarizes opinions but should not polarize people.

Harley wrote:I don't want to argue. Didn't know this was such a sensitive topic.

So in conclusion

Head size not affected by neutering
Muscle mass is
Length of legs possibly
Everyone loves their dogs and makes decisions that they believe are in the best interest of their beloved. The topic of neutering polarizes opinions but should not polarize people.

Sounds like fair comments

Summed up, its a personal opinion Xx

he will be a big boy one day i thought the same about my staffy he just turn 14 months and now he filling out fast with muscle and his head as grown alot in the last month but just give him time to develop and love him as he is

Have you got his papers? If he full? If not then youll never know how he will look. He has a long neck which is why i ask.

He does not have papers. I did not buy him from a breeder, they were a couple that had both parents. They gave me copies of the parents papers and i had a good look at both parents so I'm quite satisfied that he is pure staffy. Although as you state I can't be 100% certain. In saying that, he does have a long neck and looks leggy, but from all the advice given thus far I think his looks will change many times between now and when he matures, he is only 6 months.

Harley - you have been given a hard time on this thread because of the early neutering of your boy, but what's done is done and there is no going back on that.

I think that most people would agree that humping at 3-4 months old is unusual, and as it involved your children I can understand why you wanted to try to cure it by neutering (and I hope it has).

To go back to your first question about head size. Your pup looks just great for his age - maybe his head will grow to show standard tank size, maybe not.
I'm sure you will love him no matter what his head size.

Harley wrote:He does not have papers. I did not buy him from a breeder, they were a couple that had both parents. They gave me copies of the parents papers and i had a good look at both parents so I'm quite satisfied that he is pure staffy. Although as you state I can't be 100% certain. In saying that, he does have a long neck and looks leggy, but from all the advice given thus far I think his looks will change many times between now and when he matures, he is only 6 months.

He surely will, but at the same time, two parents with papers...why does he have none? You'll never know so don't be concerned about how he grows just make sure he is healthy and getting what he needs per his height/weight.

Thats a question I asked the owners. Pups can only have papers if the breeder is registered and the sire and dam have papers. The owners were not registered breeders and therefore no papers for Harley. Like I said, the owners gave me copies of the parents papers and made representations that the pup was pure and identified the parents (who lived together). In summing all this up, you are 100% correct in that we can't be 100% certain without the papers. I am however satisfied as to who Harley's parents are, and I don't think anything sinister was going on.