Help identify the full breed?

I would appreciate opinions on this dog's breeding and how it compares to the dog in the last two pictures...

http://www.doconnel.force9.co.uk/sox/

Hi, I'm not sure what your question is? Are you wondering if this is a pure bred staffie, is the other dog a parent or something?

it is part staffy what the dog is crossed with im unsure

The joules are quiet big but not sure what the cross is

yes agree,sox is a staffy cross but not sure either,he is gorgeous what ever thou

First is a 3yr old staffie cross. It'd be great if anyone can tie it down further.

The second is simply listed as "cross breed", is 2yr old and by my estimate (based on these photo's) much bigger than the first. I'm interested to know if the second also seems like a staffie crossbreed and what it's crossbreed might be. The two are not related in any way.

To be honest, I think it's almost impossible to pin it down much more. Interestingly, someone on here had their dog DNA tested recently and the results came back with some surprising breeds included.

Looking at the first dog, I'd not be surprised to find some sighthound in there, especially the top right shot looks quite deep chested and the tail has that curl to it. But I'd also not be surprised to find a mix of various breeds, with the bull breed coming through the strongest.

The second is slightly harder to see from the shots, but the head is more jowly so possibly mastiff or something like that?

But both possibly staffie crosses, the first more so than the second.

I'm seeing american bull dog x staffy. Very popular cross to make a pit bull looking dog in the UK. But as liz says, its impossible to tell really.

Thanks for your replies. I might be able to go into more details at a later date but the short version is that both dogs were in Preston RSPCA at the same time. The first, my recently deceased sister's dog, was supposedly declared a dangerous dog by the police and put down despite assurances by the RSPCA that it would be re-homed (how they came to have the dog is not so straight forward). The second is just one of many dogs similar if not almost identical to my sister's dog that are currently up for adoption on various RSPCA sites.

I'm not a dog owner and until recently knew very little about them or BSL, it's impact on cross breeds, pit bull standards or various facts about the RSPCA. So I was curious why this dog would be declared a "dangerous" breed while other almost identical ones arn't. Neither the police or the RSPCA will answer this question. The police won't even state if they were involved in the decision or not, which I find very strange.

Like I say, there's a bit more to this story and I'm still awaiting responses to various queries.

@stella: yes, he was a very good looking dog, very friendly, good natured and even got on with other dogs (contrary to what I've read elsewhere about these type of dogs)

I obviously can't speak about the details of these particular dogs or how that RSPCA centre works, but as I volunteer on a regular basis for the local RSPCA affiliated kennels and so have direct experience of how these assessments are made, I might be able to shed a little light on the process in as I have seen it.

The first thing to remember we are not allowed to rehome any dog that is assessed as being a 'pit bull type' unless it is to someone who as a license to keep that dog. We did recently have a dog rehomed to someone who obtained a license but not many people are prepared to do that. Otherwise, it is illegal to keep a pit bull type so it therefore cannot be rehomed.

Any dog that may possibly be determined to be a pit bull type is photographed and images sent to the police officer who has been trained to make the legal assessment. If he thinks it is possibly a pit bull type, he will come and assess the dog, tape measure in hand. If it is borderline he will take temperament into consideration but if it is, to his mind, clear cut, then he will require it to be pts.

It's not the RSPCA that is at fault here, or the police officers. It is the law that is the proverbial ass. Until the law stop discriminating based only on a set of measurements, dogs like your sister's will continue to be pts. That's what the RSPCA and other organisations are still campaigning for.

I appreciate your reply Liz and that's exactly what I have been told. However there are other aspects to this that I don't want to discuss at this time that make me believe it was solely an RSPCA decision in this case. That's before the question of why some dogs and not others.

Some RSPCA handlers are trained in the assessment of type dogs, however, there always has to be a final decision on breed made by the police. At least that's how it worked when I worked in kennels. As Liz has said, the law is rubbish! But RSPCA/police staff have to abide by said law, whether they agree with it or not. Trust me, I've seen as many handlers in tears having a dog PTS as I have owners. Their hands are tied.

Regarding certain dogs being PTS and others not, there are a set of "tick boxes" that have to be marked when measuring a dog to assess for type. Tallying a score over a certain number result in the dog being classified as type - if the dog is borderline other aspects can be taken into account, but I couldn't clarify what these were as we very rarely encountered that situation. Sorry for your loss.

I've just looked at the photos - the first dog looks to be staffie cross and second looks to be American bull dog or mastiff cross potentially. Both bull breed crosses, but very different ancestry by the looks of things. The first dog is much more "square" that the latter, which is more heavy set. Many people mistake Pit Bull Types due to the media portrayal - which is to name anything that's a bull breed a pit bull! Pit bulls were bred to look athletic and "sporting". The bottom dog is much too chunky to be a pit bull.

I agree with all that liz has just said. The top dog, to me, would be "type" and the bottom is more on the mastiff/bulldog scale. To me it makes no difference, there is more likelyhood of getting mauled by a jackrussel than a staffy cross, but since jack russels are only the size of a big toe noone seems to care.

Im sorry you have had to look into this though.

Yesterday I lost all patience with the rspca (and others) so I'm writing up this whole saga and going to the papers. I'm also considering legal action so will be skipping a few details.

On the day my sister was found the police arranged with her friend to look after my sister's dog while the family were informed. The very next morning this "friend", without us knowing or agreeing, signed the dog over to the rspca. While we were out starting funeral arrangements an rspca inspector put a card through the door telling us to call the national number. I was constantly on the phone the rest of that day (one day after my sisters death!) and most the next trying to locate the dog, explaining the situation nearly a dozen times. They initially claimed no knowledge then finally one very nasty women said "Even if I knew I wouldn't tell you". The inspector never made any further attempt to contact us and I realise now we would never have got a response on the phone because our name wasn't on the form. Out of desperation we went to the local rspca office and by luck an old acquaintance worked there. She promised to get an inspector to visit us.

On day 3 after my sister's death an inspector did turn up, told us the dog was already in Preston (70 miles away), acknowledged the situation and offered to return the dog. During this conversation we had mentioned my sister had already started looking into re-homing options so he described the rspca's re-homing procedures in detail, which all sounded very thorough. After we explicitly stated we did not want the dog destroyed, answered his questions and being assured that possibility was very unlikely, we felt confident that the rspca was a "safe" option. There was no mention of several key facts that completely trash any such assurances and any one of them would have prevented us signing. Call us naive, this was our first experience with rspca, the initial difficulty getting an answer out of them should have rung alarm bells.

Even though I notified Preston of the situation a few days later and again after a few weeks, they eventually claimed to not know anything and that the police had ordered the destruction. Apart from the obvious here and what I've since discovered about the rspca, there are other reasons to believe they are lying and until the police confirm they were involved then I simply don't believe them. They won't say why dogs with the same breeding (or more dangerous) are still available for adoption.

So that's the gist of this story and there's even more to it. Sad part: I was prepared to take the dog if the rspca had any difficulty re-homing him but I live 400 miles away and couldn't be in two places at once. All in all, a heartless and completely unnecessary death of a dog that had done no one any harm and had been my sister's constant companion for four years through cancer and other illnesses.

im so sorry to read all that. The RSPCA are absolute rats. They are so fiercely "law abiding" they have actually brainwashed most of their staff that pit/staff dogs are very bad dogs.

So sorry about your loss.

I'm really sorry for your loss. It sounds like all has been dealt with insensitively by the office staff. Even sadder that your sisters dog was lost also. As with anything, there are good centres and bad centres, obviously not knowing the full story it's very hard to comment as to why this would have happened so it's probably best to gain advice from somebody that was involved in the case, not people making presumptions.

I will say, I've worked in RSPCA affiliated kennels for a number of years and I've never experienced anything like this. I love bull breeds - my own dog is a rescue with behavioural problems and she was assessed as type on arrival and passed. I entirely understand your upset for this poor treatment - remember that office employees are different from shelter employees. I can't tell you how much myself and my colleagues cared for the dogs - doing everything in our power to make them safe, happy and comfortable in our care. I worked 6 days a week for minimum wage, often working unpaid overtime, but I loved my job. Hard decisions often have to be made, but they come from the top or the police. We haven't been brainwashed, there is so much going on behind the scenes.

I'm not going to comment further on the case itself. I'm not at all saying I disbelieve you, dok, but there is so often much more to a story than meets the eye and without full information it is impossible to comment or pass judgement.

Rachel is absolutely right that the RSPCA are not 'rats', either individually or as an organisation. They don't always get it right, I'll give you that, but they do an enormous amount of good. If they are 'fiercely law abiding' it is probably because if they were not they'd get slated too. What would you have them do, apply one law for one and one for another? In my experience, they have an incredibly difficult balancing act that they will never get right in the eyes of those who have already decided against them.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, Hayley, but it is frustrating and upsetting to those of us who work/volunteer in rescue to hear collegues who we know well and who care enormously being called 'rats'.

Well, three months later and I have given the RSPCA every chance to supply a credible answer. I have worked my way through Preston branch mgr, Chief Inspector, Operations Superintendent, Chief Officer of the Inspectorate and today emailed the RSPCA executive. At every stage they have stalled, insulted, pulled several dirty tricks and finally took to ignoring me. In case you think that I may have been abusive, I have not. I and my sister have persistently & patiently requested a letter-of-permission so we can discuss Sox's assessment directly with the police and an answer as to why Sox was selectively referred to police, why no second opinion was sought or the order contested in any way whatsoever, why we were not contacted as requested (at zero cost, they had addresses, tel/mob numbers, email addresses) or why there appeared to be a mad rush to clear kennel space.

So far they have generally absolved themselves of any/all blame with the one exception of "poor" communication (shocking understatement for what would have to be a TOTAL lack of communication by every one involved at every stage and level). They even had the audacity to claim that the inspector who first took charge of the dog without authority and fully aware of the situation, who then failed to report it or make any attempt to contact the family and who whisked Sox quickly off to Preston... "showed great compassion". That conclusion completely defies logic.

Along the way it has become very clear that dogs **ARE** selectively referred to the police. I have added three other dogs to my web page and there are many more to be found on RSPCA websites, even Preston's. I would challenge anyone who claims the last dog is less "type" than the first!...

http://www.doconnel.force9.co.uk/sox/

I'm now convinced that on a scale of 0 (SBT) to 10 (PBT) Sox would have been a 2 or at most a 3. I'll soon be putting a lot of images and videos on-line to get opinions of actual PBT owners.

I posted here simply to get opinions from SBT owners and would like to thank those who have commented. I did not intend to stir up any debate about the RSPCA and fully accept there are a lot of people doing good work. That said, it's now clear to me and a lot of other people that the RSPCA is a two-faced arrogant organisation more often focused on money, prosecutions, sometimes even persecution, than saving animals. Anyone who supports them in any way should educate themselves and examine their conscience.

I entirely understand your upset, anguish and distress within the situation, I can only imagine how upsetting this has been for you. It does appear that the way that this case has been dealt with is highly unprofessional and has only prolonged your stress and upset. I'm unsure of where you can go that's higher than where you have already been? Perhaps you will get an answer from the executive. I genuinely hope that you get some answers soon and a thorough explanation.

I've had a look at the dogs out of interest, if you are referring to the brindle second from last then yes there are similarities between them and the first dog pictures. The very last cream dog however does not look type to me at all, he has a much longer coat and softer features. This still doesn't mean that I agree that the first dog is type either. If you can look online for DEFRA's guidelines regarding prohibited dogs I think they have all of the characteristics available (there are a LOT!) As mentioned previously, many people claim to have pit bulls, but they're actually crossbreeds. BSL and "type" dogs are an entirely different and very complicated ball game. You will likely get different responses from all over the internet.

The RSPCA debate is constant, however, your last comment regarding examining our conscience and educating ourselves is really quite hurtful and not appreciated by people that are trying to help you. BSL happens in all kennels, just look at the recent case of Stella who was held for years without exercise in a private boarding facility.

Due to the tone of some of the comments on this thread it has been decided to close it before it descends to an unacceptable debate.