Bite inhibition

Do those sour apple flavourings etc work?

I've tried pretty much every strategy except for smacking and shouting but my little lad has been an utter nightmare all day and i've been at my wits end today..Obviously he's a baby, so it's all part and parcel but today i've had to stay away from him quite a lot because i've been getting really angry...I literally haven't been able to take a step without him under my feet either ripping my clothes, footwear or biting my feet..When i've picked him up he has continued to bite my hands and arms, drawing blood through my clothes on my legs and arms. He also bit my face today..twice, and bit my lip yesterday.
I've done all the 'ouching', numerous time outs, folded arms and turning away..My last resort was to spray him with water (which i've done twice) but i really do not like that idea..although it did stop him instantly..
When we play he obviously gets more exuberant and gets more bitey..he will ignore any other toys, treats, distractions etc and if he starts biting me the only thing i can do is to walk away from him..with him biting my feet every step of the way....Then of course, if he is in the living room i can only leave him for 20=30 seconds because without my supervision he will either start chewing something, or he'll wee...
It all sounds very funny, but today has really got me fed up, and i look like i've been whipped with barbed wire, plus my eyes have been red raw which has added to the fun...
Anyway, whinge over, and back to my question....The only other thing i can think of is these repellent flavourings...Do they work?

what kinda things has your pup been doing?

The thing is, you need to continue the distraction, ignore, ouch behaviours continually, sometimes for months. And then when you think he's cracked it, he'll be a teenager and he'll find another frustrating behaviour to repeat. Welcome to puppyhood!

Chopping and changing between methods will only confuse Spike. He's only 9 weeks old. Patience and consistency are key - choose a (preferably positive reinforcement) method and stick to it, for at least 6 weeks, before you write it off as not being the method for him. When he's fully vaccinate and you can get him out and about, things will get easier. In the mean time ensure he has stucrure to his day - a strict routine for the time being. Toilet - breakfast (in a kong if poss - toilet again - some form of play or training to tire him out - toilet - crate for nap time - toilet - 2nd meal (if you're feeding x3) - toilet - more stimulation (on his own if needs be, give him something safe to destroy (a cardboard box for example) - toilet - crate & nap.... You can see where I'm going with this. When he's able to go out and about replace 2 x play with his walks. Keep things steady and repetitive for him, so that he knows what is expected.

Have you tried putting him in his crate for a nap? Marley was terrible when he was tired! Put him in there covered it and he'd be sleeping in seconds, he was much pleasant afterwards. Also I used to distract Marley when he got really bad with the sit give paw etc, then I'd praise him. Playing fetch in the house was great too always tired him out so he was less nippy, it well get better with time tho

Patience is the key and i know easier said than done, i never thought I'd survive the puppy stage (i got my boy at 8 wks), i can't tell you how many times i cried and was ready to give up - I'm so glad i persevered, hes nearly 2 now and still pushes boundaries but is my best friend, he's amazing!! He was the alpha male of the litter and had a fierce personality, thankfully so do I! Be consistant, it's the only way he'll learn, and get him in a routine daily as much as poss. You WILL get thru this if you are patient & consistant & persist and Spike WILL settle down i promise! There is no quick fix, his behaviour is normal, now it's up to you to help educate/teach him. Remember we're all here for support and have many many years and levels of experience to help. Hang in there!

when he's tired he usually has a mental 10 minutes and then throws himself on the floor knackered!
We've had a good play of tug tonight and he was as good as gold..He sat when i told him to and waited for me to say 'take it', then he'd launch at the toy, and let go when i said 'leave it'...weird..
I think he gets over exuberant sometimes, and occasionally gets excited to be going into the front room...
For Spike, the ouch technique is just nonsense...Reading other forums i've never read anyone who said it worked...The most effective method is to try and control the biting before he gets in a 'bitey mood'..when he's feeling really bitey there isn't really a lot i can do other then remove myself from him..also i find that when i play with him that if i refrain from touching him and only touching the toy this helps to inhibit him from biting ME....

The mental 10 mins they never grow out of lol! I'm glad today was a better day. At the end of the day find a method that works for you & Spike and keep at it, it will subside he is still so very very young

Ruby was exactly the same with those little razor sharp teeth. Once they fall out its gets easier. Don't give up it's worth all the pain!

It sounds to me like you're expecting miracles, Si. The 'ouch' technique can work but only if you're consistent and patient, and only as long as you use it as part of a good general management and training programme. Sorry if this is going to sound harsh, but I'm reading escallating energy and tension from you that will impact his behaviour, and lots of 'don't', but not much 'do'.

As well as keeping up with the 'ouch', there are several things I'd do that don't resort to gimmiks. The first is wear big gloves. Those thick leather gardening gloves that go up the wrist are good. And avoid having your face within biting range. If he's going for ankles as well, then protect your legs too. You need to be able to not react.

Actually, let's step back and look at why Spud is doing this. He's a puppy and he needs to learn how to interact. Naturally, he'd be doing this with his litter mates and poor old mum, but because we take them into our human only households they have no choice but to do it with us.

As a dog and as a baby, he has to learn the ropes, or better put you need to teach him the ropes. He can only do what he knows, which at the moment is his instinct. He has no power of reasoning and absolutely no natural way of understanding you as a human or your human environment.

Learning is a process that involves finding out what gets you one of three things - a) something nice, b) the removal of something not nice, c) something horrible or d) the withholding of something you want. (To be really geeky, these in behavioural terms are called positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment.) It is very, very well known that relying on positive punishment will only ever get you so far.

Telling someone what not to do (punishment) will only ever tell you what not to do. The most effective training is through reinforcement, and with dogs that nearly always positive reinforcement with a bit of negative thrown if you're dealing with fears.

So back to training Spud. You need to start getting your mind round the detail of how you are interacting with him as seen through his eyes and how he is learning, again through his eyes. At the moment, it sounds like you're initiating high energy games (tug of war) so saying 'I'm here for exciting play', but not showing him a different way of interacting with you.

It also sounds like your emotional energy is reaching boiling point, which is completely the opposite of what you need to create and calm atmosphere where you can both learn to relax. Everything has to come from you, it cannot come from him, so you need to take a deep breath and learn how to lower your energy, and increase you patience.

Please have a look through these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0C724F6F6A597540

Victoria does know what she's talking about, she's extremely well respected and her methods do work. Look at how quiet she is, look at how she praises for every little thing, look at how she has the puppy engaged. Yes, I know it's very easy for someone with as much experience as she has but if you can get your mind away from trying to force your boy into obedience within a week, and into working with him at his pace on this long joint journey that is training, and also learn to love watching him learn, love helping him learn, you'll bet doing amazing things very quickly.

I'll be honest with you, Si. I'm worried that things could go very pear shaped if you don't step away from your current course of punishment and frustration. This is such an important time in a dogs life and the lessons Spud learns now will be with him forever. If he starts getting cross because of punishment, and/or if he starts fearing your anger, you have the potential to create genuine aggression later on.

As soon as you can when he's had his jabs, find puppy socialisation opportunities (many vets do puppy parties) and see if you can find a good, positive method puppy class where both of you can learn together. In the meantime, work on the training in those videos and also find some stimulating games for him that don't involve high energy fighting with you. Hiding treats is simple, keeps them occupied and the mental effort is tiring. Training is also tiring for pups (but don't overdo it in the quest to tire him!).

And above all remember, this is normal, everyone who has had a puppy will have been through the testing times (as Rachel says only to hit testing teenage times!). I know it feels like he's worse than any other puppy ever but I promise you he isn't. He's just little Spudster, a bit lost in what to do in this world he finds himself in, and needing his dad to help him through.

Well put liz

LizP wrote:It sounds to me like you're expecting miracles, Si. The 'ouch' technique can work but only if you're consistent and patient, and only as long as you use it as part of a good general management and training programme. Sorry if this is going to sound harsh, but I'm reading escallating energy and tension from you that will impact his behaviour, and lots of 'don't', but not much 'do'.

As well as keeping up with the 'ouch', there are several things I'd do that don't resort to gimmiks. The first is wear big gloves. Those thick leather gardening gloves that go up the wrist are good. And avoid having your face within biting range. If he's going for ankles as well, then protect your legs too. You need to be able to not react.

Actually, let's step back and look at why Spud is doing this. He's a puppy and he needs to learn how to interact. Naturally, he'd be doing this with his litter mates and poor old mum, but because we take them into our human only households they have no choice but to do it with us.

As a dog and as a baby, he has to learn the ropes, or better put you need to teach him the ropes. He can only do what he knows, which at the moment is his instinct. He has no power of reasoning and absolutely no natural way of understanding you as a human or your human environment.

Learning is a process that involves finding out what gets you one of three things - a) something nice, b) the removal of something not nice, c) something horrible or d) the withholding of something you want. (To be really geeky, these in behavioural terms are called positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment and negative punishment.) It is very, very well known that relying on positive punishment will only ever get you so far.

Telling someone what not to do (punishment) will only ever tell you what not to do. The most effective training is through reinforcement, and with dogs that nearly always positive reinforcement with a bit of negative thrown if you're dealing with fears.

So back to training Spud. You need to start getting your mind round the detail of how you are interacting with him as seen through his eyes and how he is learning, again through his eyes. At the moment, it sounds like you're initiating high energy games (tug of war) so saying 'I'm here for exciting play', but not showing him a different way of interacting with you.

It also sounds like your emotional energy is reaching boiling point, which is completely the opposite of what you need to create and calm atmosphere where you can both learn to relax. Everything has to come from you, it cannot come from him, so you need to take a deep breath and learn how to lower your energy, and increase you patience.

Please have a look through these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0C724F6F6A597540

Victoria does know what she's talking about, she's extremely well respected and her methods do work. Look at how quiet she is, look at how she praises for every little thing, look at how she has the puppy engaged. Yes, I know it's very easy for someone with as much experience as she has but if you can get your mind away from trying to force your boy into obedience within a week, and into working with him at his pace on this long joint journey that is training, and also learn to love watching him learn, love helping him learn, you'll bet doing amazing things very quickly.

I'll be honest with you, Si. I'm worried that things could go very pear shaped if you don't step away from your current course of punishment and frustration. This is such an important time in a dogs life and the lessons Spud learns now will be with him forever. If he starts getting cross because of punishment, and/or if he starts fearing your anger, you have the potential to create genuine aggression later on.

As soon as you can when he's had his jabs, find puppy socialisation opportunities (many vets do puppy parties) and see if you can find a good, positive method puppy class where both of you can learn together. In the meantime, work on the training in those videos and also find some stimulating games for him that don't involve high energy fighting with you. Hiding treats is simple, keeps them occupied and the mental effort is tiring. Training is also tiring for pups (but don't overdo it in the quest to tire him!).

And above all remember, this is normal, everyone who has had a puppy will have been through the testing times (as Rachel says only to hit testing teenage times!). I know it feels like he's worse than any other puppy ever but I promise you he isn't. He's just little Spudster, a bit lost in what to do in this world he finds himself in, and needing his dad to help him through.

Excellent advice

Brilliant advice from Liz

good advice.. my Buddy was a devil dog at times until he was 5 months and then he started behaving and being sweet.. now he is 6 months and the devil is coming back... he will not win though .. he will behave ... consistency is definitely what is needed and socialisation - keep going he will come good

Ziggy has tried this a few times but I a sturn no and then say kisses and she licks me. She tends to lick, nip, lick, nip, lick then has cuddles.

Is this the correct way? Or should I be saying ouch? I don't want her to think it's playful though with the ouch as I would naturally say it in a calm voice.

If I have toys at arms length i will give her one of her kongs or bone or rope and that helps

if a stern NO works then that is the way to go - ouch doesn't work for every dog - Buddy didn't respond to Ouch but he responds to saying "nicely" when he gets bitey and stops and gives me a lick , if that doesn't work a stern No stops him completely and then I distract home with a toy . Buddy is 6 months now and is trying his luck with the biting again -he is also teething which makes him grumpy .. a firm No and distraction with a toy is going in the right direction -they soon learn, it is also a good time to teach the "enough" command this comes in handy in so many situations, when playing nicely stop the game and say enough.. when she stops praise or give her a treat and then start the game again.. do this a few times a day -so she gets the idea of the command -you can then use this if she gets boisterous or rough in play helpful when she plays full on with another dog and you want the play to stop, or in any situation where you want a change in behaviour Only command that stops Buddy flattening our cat !

Yes it is handy to have toys at arms length not very useful when they are hanging off your trouser leg tho the ouch never worked with Marley he used to give me a funny look then it would start all over again, the 'no' command still doesn't work with him either, but if she is responding to the 'no' them I'd just stick to that, as carol said the 'enough' command is very useful, and the 'leave it' that works best for me but they are all different I think your both doing great

It doesn't have to be ouch - you can use any word that you like, just be consistent.

The problem that I have with the word "no" is that it's overused and doesn't tell the dog what you DO want them to do, only that they need to stop what they're doing now. I would much rather have different commands for different situations - for example; I use leave it (self explanatory), enough (for over arousal/too rough play), quiet (for barking/whining), stop (for roadsides/emergencies), wait (if getting too for ahead/being pushy). I always follow these with a positive, so I praise after she complies with the command, and then give her an alternative, generally a release command to continue what she was doing (mine is "okay!") or if she needs to be distracted I go into a short training session with food/play rewards.

thanks for the advice.. Im no a big believer in saying 'no' and it's something i've avoided so far. id much rather have the emphasis on the positive.

ive already watched Victoria Stilwells videos. Theres also some good content from Zak George and another channel called Kikopup.