He went for a child again

My son took my daughter into the nursery, while I waited outside the gates in a quiet area with Alfie. One of the nursery Nans (she's got parental custody) came along with her 3 yr old granddaughter. They were already pretty close and I said Alfie was stressed at being out and on the lead. Alfie stood and wagged his tail at the girl who then stroked his head, when she tried to stroke him again he went for her!! No growl or verbal warning just all teeth suddenly. I immediately apologised, but the nan said "Oh shes alright". I don't think he managed to get her but it obviously scared her. Could have been really bad though. Im lucky the other woman didn't kick up a right fuss about him.
Im really scared now as he once went for my 3 yr old while she was sitting with me stroking him nicely, so that's twice now! We sometimes have friends round that are my work friends with kids the same age. We used to meet at mum and toddler groups but they don't go to same nursery schools now so meet once a month for lunch and play at each others homes. There are five 3yr olds round at once. I have hosted it twice since having Alfie and have had to watch him, occupy him kongs and KEEP telling the kids to just leave him alone. There is no where I can shut him in out of the way. Im terrified now that he will seriously hurt a little one. I never leave him with the kids but things can happen so quickly and with no warning. Panicking at the moment.

I would seek professional help with a problem that serious   

Sorry for not helping much but I'm not very experienced with dogs myself   

Good luck   

Would also advize some professional help from a qualified trainer, they may suggest a muzzle for when he is is near children for which training would be required. Please see the link below for a good training method for dogs to wear a muzzle:

http://www.morrco.com/trdogtowemu.html

Oh hun, I am sorry I have never experienced this before and wouldn't know where to start with any advise - so sorry what a horrible situation - all I can say is you an work with it, as mentioned above maybe try a good trainer, ask your vets even Xx

Hey! I would say to get the trainer back in, but in the mean time, could you fit a crate in anywhere? At least he would be secure and comfortable with unknown children around when crated, especially if distracted with kongs/chews!

Could it be that he had bad experience with your little one? Maybe he was left alone with the kid? Obviously now it's too much a risk to leave him alone with any kid including yours till he's retrained sorry that's not much help but its not typical behaviour usually they are brilliant with kids. Never had Any dog that was aggressive to kids please get professional help cause it can go terribly wrong. Must be horrible for you. Maybe you can muzzle him when there are kids around?

Thanks all.
Alfies background if unfamiliar
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t52196-alfie-s-rehab-journey

I have sent a similar email to our trainer just now so see what she says.

I did muzzle train him previously, for about a month at home before taking him out in it (because he has fear aggression with dogs), but he hated it and was so mega stressed with it on and ripping his face trying to get it off. Our trainer said not to use it and in his case it would make him more stressed in a stressful situation and even more likely to go for a dog.

A crate is a thought for when we have guests round, though I would imagine he could be hyper in one.

Peppa he is a rehomed dog and lived with a 4 yr old boy, which he was meant to be great with. however they let the boy ride him around like a horse, Alfie is only small My girl has not done anything to him, we are lucky in a way in that she is not that bothered by him. She loves him but doesn't pet him much, though she gives him his meals and plays ball with him while I am beside her. He is much more relaxed with my 10yr old son and is always on his lap for snuggles etc.

The muzzle and crate are both good idea, can't really offer much else I'm afraid Hun xxx

Thanks Saz xxx

Sounds like the crate idea may well be the way to go here then.

What an awful situation. Sounds like Alfie is unsure of a younger child. I'm sorry I can't offer any advice but I think crating him is the best way forward

Oh no what a horrible situation to be in. I can't really offer any further advice to that already given but the crate does look like a possible solution. It's very strange that there isn't any trigger or sign before hand.

I hope the trainer can help you so that Alfie can become calm around kids.

Sorry flowerbud I didn't know Alfie's story just responded to the situation didn't mean to criticise you. Obviously you have saved he's life but he is still traumatised from before. I really feel for you and your family the only thing I can think of is finding another trainer that speaialises in situations like this and meanwhile please be careful x

Thanks all I will get a crate and speak to professional.

Peppa don't worry I didn't take it as a criticism, was just trying to explain the situation. I would have thought the same had I not known.

sounds like the crate is the way to go,hope you get some help from your trainer x

just dont let people stroke him or kids play with him now sam doesn't like everyone, there must of been some time of sign like ears, tail, or something

No I wont. Not that I saw but it was so quick.

i can remember one moment with sam when i was picking up my nephew about 4 kids came over and i could tell he was just about to bark so i pulled him away

Oh Sue how horrid for you hun, I have no experience either but the trainer, muzzle and crate seem worth a try xxx

You must have had such a fright. Keep him away from kids and don't let anyone pet him at the school gates (I'm sure you will do this anyway). Poor Alfie he must have been scared the child was going to hurt him. Crating may be the way forward. Don't beat yourself up as nobody was hurt, I'm sure you will be able to sort this out    

Thanks Inez and Claire.
It really shook me up. I never go as far as the gates, I wait in a quieter area which leads down to a canal path, but is right by the school. Both of mine go to the same school so my 10yr old just takes my 3yr old into the nursery (I watch) then comes out and goes into the main school. Normally I avoid any people petting him and as I was explaining to the nan that he was very stressed I thought she would have common sense to not let the child near him. But she came a bit closer and Alfie, on a short lead anyway luckily, moved towards her wagging his tail and looking happy. To be honest if that was it he would have been fine but it was when she leant back to him he didn't like, she may have been bending over a bit more thinking about it. The nan is one of those people that walks past a dog and thinks shes best buddies with it    However I should have stopped her anyway even with his "friendly" first greeting. Wont make that mistake again.
Thanks for all the support really appreciate it been feeling rubbish x

Where was the child stood? if in front face on that can be very threatening to a dog nose to nose and direct eye contact

I've been to a few jobs where kids have approached dogs outside shops etc with their owners. The owners have been absolutely devastated genuinely the dog has never bitten before but the constant has been the kid approaching from the front and looking the dog in the eye

I know that Ledger can have no more than 3seconds contact with another dog if they greet nose to nose with experience I now see the ears go back a bit, the lip lick and whale eye and it's a "3seconds that enough now watch me" to get his attention. The nan leaning over also won't have helped Alfie feeling threatened.

As above tho I would suggest muzzle training for public places and when people visit as it's just not worth the risk

Hello - I think you have to be completely pragmatic about this one.

Put him in a separate room, or crate him - whatever is most calming for him.

When you say this is the second time, what exactly happened the first time?

I think you just have to be practical and not put anyone at risk. I'm not just talking about other people/children but if something were to happen, you would be in a serious situation and Alfie would probably be in a worse one.

Put your practical hat on, don't torture yourself with trying to work out why this happened. It is not your fault.

I fostered a dog once who wouldn't stop biting me, it escalated every time to the point where it frightened me. I was bitten on the chest and legs and arms. This happened every time I was playing hide and seek with her, to practice her recall. When she felt she was losing me, this would happen. Also happened once when I went swimming in a river. I was really upset as I was so worried about the consequences for her (she was later adopted by a vet who had an interest in rehabilitating dogs).

Anyway, I understand your alarm and I can only say that, although this is your responsibility, you have done nothing wrong, and everything right. I am so sorry you are going through this.

One last question - is she ill at all? Does she show any sign of tummy upset, for instance?

flowerbud wrote:There is no where I can shut him in out of the way.

I dont quite understand this. Is everything open plan? No doors anywhere? To an animal, I'm sure kids can be very scary. Little ones move erratically and that must be extra distressing for creatures at the same eye level. The noise they make when at full bellow is maximum stressful as well (as anyone who's sat near one on a plane or train will testify). If I had a fiver for every time someone has told me (did you know...?) that Douglas is a member of 'the nanny dog' breed I would be very rich, but I think it's a brainless, meaningless description and never ever let kids pat him when we're out - for his protection, not theirs. We're not a mobile petting zoo. I'd do the same if my dog were a labrador or a yorkie or even a poodle. If (some) dogs find (some) kids stressful, that may just be the logical conclusion - depending on how the kids are behaving. Temporary separation may be the best way to get peace of mind.

hi sorry to hear about your situation, my uncle is a renowned dog behaiourist if you want to give him a call he will be able to help you, his name is paul daly his website is canine coaching, hope all goes well

Thanks all.
Jules yes she was more in front of him.
Rupertsbooks No sign of any illness or sore areas.
When he grabbed my 3yr old daughters arm we were both sitting on the sofa with him on my lap. We were both quietly stroking him (only a few minutes), back of his neck shoulders not his head. That time I realised he looked uncomfortable and was just about to say lets leave him when he grabbed her arm. He licked his lips and looked round at me, but I just wasn't quick enough. He didn't leave any teeth indents and it didn't hurt her but it was definitely a warning.
Yeahbut. Yes it is mostly open plan only a door to the front room. The problem is if I have friend's children round they play in all the downstairs rooms as that's where the toys are or are also in and out of the garden. I do not trust them not to open doors or even gates. I think a crate to be used at these times with his Kong and stag bar. He can have his space and also see whats going on. I agree, we are out for a walk not for petting (was the same with our old dog, who was very friendly), it was a combination of us standing still and me not expecting them to stop and bad judgement etc..

Kattie, thank you I have taken down his details and will see if I can get hold of him tomorrow. Is it ok to say I heard about him through Kattie?

flowerbud wrote:That time I realised he looked uncomfortable and was just about to say lets leave him when he .....

I think you're dead right to draw attention to a kind of tipping point there. Things can be fine and then - snap - suddenly things can get a teeny bit ugly. Something like this happened today to Douglas and me when we were out. We were just coming back from the vet where he was getting his annual jabs (so probably a bit upsetting anyway for him) and a middle-aged man in the street stopped and simply had to speak to Douglas. You know this phenomenon when people are absolutely determined to love-bomb your dog (for reasons all of their own)? It's bad manners really, he didnt ask at all, didnt even look at me at the other end of the lead, just dived straight into a heavy petting session. Well, Douglas was ok at first but, despite the guy being well-meaning, I could see that he was rubbing just a bit too hard, being a bit too rough. I think some people (especially some men) think Douglas looks like a tough guy (which he does) and that he will enjoy some tough love (which he does NOT). It was too much, too hard, and it was over-familiar. I experienced just the thought that you described when you started to notice that Alfie was looking uncomfortable. I should have stopped it right there, but Douglas in a flash had already pulled his ugly face and the guy withdrew his hand in alarm as the great jaws clanged shut in the empty air. So I think there is something there to watch for and I, personally, am extra sensitive now (even more than before) to signs of discomfort - which need immediate action. Despite my assertion yesterday that 'we are not a mobile petting zoo' it's really hard to keep adults away from Douglas when they're determined to make contact. I still feel kids are in a different league though and, speaking personally, wouldnt allow Douglas to be in a position that could get him into trouble as there would be little forgiveness with kids - even when it's the kid's fault.

The only thing I would mention with the crate idea which is being discussed here for Alfie, which is a good idea, is to please not put it in a place where he could get stressed out with kids shouting and poking things through the bars. To be in a quiet place out of the way would be good for Alfie.

yeahbut wrote:

flowerbud wrote:That time I realised he looked uncomfortable and was just about to say lets leave him when he .....

I think you're dead right to draw attention to a kind of tipping point there. Things can be fine and then - snap - suddenly things can get a teeny bit ugly. Something like this happened today to Douglas and me when we were out. We were just coming back from the vet where he was getting his annual jabs (so probably a bit upsetting anyway for him) and a middle-aged man in the street stopped and simply had to speak to Douglas. You know this phenomenon when people are absolutely determined to love-bomb your dog (for reasons all of their own)? It's bad manners really, he didnt ask at all, didnt even look at me at the other end of the lead, just dived straight into a heavy petting session. Well, Douglas was ok at first but, despite the guy being well-meaning, I could see that he was rubbing just a bit too hard, being a bit too rough. I think some people (especially some men) think Douglas looks like a tough guy (which he does) and that he will enjoy some tough love (which he does NOT). It was too much, too hard, and it was over-familiar. I experienced just the thought that you described when you started to notice that Alfie was looking uncomfortable. I should have stopped it right there, but Douglas in a flash had already pulled his ugly face and the guy withdrew his hand in alarm as the great jaws clanged shut in the empty air. So I think there is something there to watch for and I, personally, am extra sensitive now (even more than before) to signs of discomfort - which need immediate action. Despite my assertion yesterday that 'we are not a mobile petting zoo' it's really hard to keep adults away from Douglas when they're determined to make contact. I still feel kids are in a different league though and, speaking personally, wouldnt allow Douglas to be in a position that could get him into trouble as there would be little forgiveness with kids - even when it's the kid's fault.

The only thing I would mention with the crate idea which is being discussed here for Alfie, which is a good idea, is to please not put it in a place where he could get stressed out with kids shouting and poking things through the bars. To be in a quiet place out of the way would be good for Alfie.

Sorry you and Douglas had that experience. Its not just bad manners to ignore the owners and go straight to the dog its stupidity! I was always brought up to leave unknown dogs well alone and so are my children. Theres no excuse for adults.


We have a crate, friends old one, will introduce it tomorrow. Going to put it in the dining room where one of his beds is currently, the quietest area too, which is why its there.

Rang Kattie's Uncle Paul Daly (thank you again Kattie) and had a chat with him. Some of the things he said was that nobody was to touch him in his "place", which we already do, he has a couple of beds and when he is in them we leave him alone. He said to stop sofa privileges, but then he said at least not when kids are with you. To get him a "I need space" vest, which I must order. He said to ring back in a few weeks or sooner if any more problems.

Thanks for the much needed support.

Hi i saw him tonight at training classes and he mentioned that you rang him, sorry i didnt reply to your message earlier about whether it was okay to mention me but of course it is , hope he has given you some help, those vests are brilliant i know so many people that use them

Thanks Kattie he was very nice. Vest ordered

im glad he could give you some guidance, he offers one to ones if needed and travels the whole country so if you need any help just call him

Thanks

anytime

I had this problem with my previous staffie. She was good with kids until a 7 yr old boy went into her face with his hands in a clawed posture like he was going to scratch her face (he thought it was funny erm ...). Well, she just seemed to snap & went for him. I manage to stop her - just but after that she lunged at my little 18 mth old granddaughter twice. Luckily she was in a netted play pen so she just knocked her down. I dread to think if she hadn't been in the play pen. From that day on every time the grandkids came around we would shut Bree in the bedroom. It was awful poor girl but there was no other option. I did begin to resent the family coming round at times - I loved Bree so much but family come first especially youngsters.

Milo is totally different & loves everyone & everything but I feel I have learnt from Bree how easily they can be frightened by children so I keep an eye on things.

I am sorry to say this but and dog trainer that says not to muzzle a dog that is human aggressive is a fool.

You are responsible for the dog and for the children that may be around it. A muzzle may stress the dog but eventually it will become used to it.

I am not trying to be horrible just realistic. I have had to explain to a parent why his kid was missing a chunk out of his leg, call an ambulance then the police on myself and then take my dog on a one way trip to the vets. Not exactly my favourite memory.

You can never tell if a toddler is coming round the corner in front of you and dogs are much faster reacting than you can be especially if you are dealing with your own kids,traffic or other distractions.

GET A MUZZLE. This breed has enough bad press. Being careful is always the best move. Trying to avoid won't work you will get caught out and can you deal with the consequences?

BTW my dog that bite the child was muzzled when out, when he did it he snapped a plastic covered wire rope jumped a 7 foot fence, a gate and a hedge to get to the child. The police told me I couldn't have been more careful however I still feel guilty and I deserve to feel guilty I should have put that dog down before it got to that.

Read more about dog behaviour, watch you dog carefully so you can see the warning signs and MUZZLE.