Thoughts?

So since I got my pup I was training with positive methods basically ignoring bad behaviors or giving a verbal no up until last 2 month. I had been having problems with recalls and jumping on people so I got talking with one of my aunts who has a 2 yr old GSD that used to have really bad dog aggression issues(lunging/barking/snapping while passing) up until last year, she had tried 4 or so different trainers that used positive methods none of them helped one told her the dog would be like that the rest of it's life so she figured she needed to try something different a friend recommended a trainer that didn't only use positive methods that also gave physical corrections/used check chains(i hate them but thats not the point)/e-collars and within a week of working with the dog the dog was no longer lunging etc the dog is now allowed off lead even around other dogs. So anyway I've been reading up on a more balanced approach for the past 2 months I still hate full check chains but I do use an e-collar and a prong, since recall training with the e-collar on low level stim I can recall my staff from mid chase of a ball/cat anyways while looking through some forums online I came across this article thought it was an interesting read.

http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/plan_b.htm

I understand a lot of people will swear by positive only methods and if it works for your dog good on you but it wasn't working for mine in the 8 months I was trying it I'd just rather not risk that my dog chases a rabbit/cat into the middle of the street and gets killed rather than giving a correction(not pain) I still use marker/clicker training etc I just use other tools also.

I will never use fear based methods, sorry, but I think they're barbaric. My dog was seriously aggressive when I took her in with people and other animals, I've never hurt or scared her to train her, and she is now safe in the community.

Balance, yes. Fear/pain based techniques? Never.

Have you ever tried redirecting behaviours? I don't believe that pure positive works.. But 99% of this forum uses kind, humane methods with their dogs along with clear boundaries and a good routine of exercise, along with nutritional diet and mental stimulation, and they're doing so well. I'd imagine it's more of an issue with you and your timing/tones/activity with the dog, really.

Plus, GSD's are wonderful dogs to train.. So sensitive and intelligent. To give them an electric shock rather than teaching them an alternative command is simply lazy and cruel. I'm really shocked at this post.

No no no and never

Ledger is also rescue and obviously had fear based training from previous owners but everything I do with him is reward based. I even stopped going to our first agility group as one of the trainers sprayed Ledger in the face with water when another dog started on him through a fence. Admittedly some things aren't easy and take time and effort to work through but we are getting there, agility and flyball have worked wonders on his recall

Rachel33 wrote:I will never use fear based methods, sorry, but I think they're barbaric. My dog was seriously aggressive when I took her in with people and other animals, I've never hurt or scared her to train her, and she is now safe in the community.

Balance, yes. Fear/pain based techniques? Never.

Just because a tool can inflict pain/cause fear doesn't mean they have to be used like that, the levels of stimulation from an e-collar I was talking about certainly don't cause pain/fear and most of the time can't even be felt by humans I can cause pain with a canny collar or a flat collar but I don't.

You said that you use prong collars in your first post?

Rachel33 wrote:Have you ever tried redirecting behaviours? I don't believe that pure positive works.. But 99% of this forum uses kind, humane methods with their dogs along with clear boundaries and a good routine of exercise, along with nutritional diet and mental stimulation, and they're doing so well. I'd imagine it's more of an issue with you and your timing/tones/activity with the dog, really.

Plus, GSD's are wonderful dogs to train.. So sensitive and intelligent. To give them an electric shock rather than teaching them an alternative command is simply lazy and cruel. I'm really shocked at this post.

I've tried redirecting into a sit before getting attention and rewarding with treats/play with jumping on people/me after sitting calmly she would then go back to jumping up, I guess jumping up can be more rewarding than a treat to some dogs.

My dog is walked 45 minutes at 7 am every morning a short 20 min walk in the afternoon followed by 10-15 minutes of fetch then another 45 minute walk in the evening she's fed once(she stopped eating her morning meal herself) a day an hour or so after her evening walk she was on nature diet until we changed to raw a few months ago we regularly have games of tug and 3 or so short 3-5 minute training sessions a day.

I have NEVER taught any command by yanking her around on a prong collar or "shocking" her with an e-collar every command I've taught has been done through reward based marker training, however, after she generalizes the command I've then proofed the command using an e-collar and prong collar around distractions.

Rachel33 wrote:You said that you use prong collars in your first post?

Yes but when used properly a leash correction doesn't need to inflict pain it needs to get the dogs attention back on you more of a reminder that your there you could do the same with a normal collar but you'd need to use a lot more pressure and all of that pressure would be at the front of the neck a prong distributes the pressure around the neck and not as much pressure is needed which is why I don't like check chains all the pressure goes to where the rings at one part of the neck and will continue to tighten a prong only tightens so far, a herm sprenger prong collars prongs are rounded down aren't pointed like some cheaper brands.

Oh and I wasn't trying to tell anyone how to train I was simply sharing my experiences/views and sharing an article I found interesting, if your style of training works for you that's great but to say I'm lazy and imply I'm incompetent and cruel is unnecessary especially since I'm sure a lot of people hear probably yourself included use gentle leaders/canny collars and halti's which cause more stress/fear/pain than an e-collar the way I and most people nowadays use them.

I'm in no way lazy when it comes to training I just believe that some thing's such as chasing rabbits/cats/live stock and possibly even jumping for some dogs especially dogs with high pray drive are self rewarding a dog that high in drive bolting after whatever a stern "no" realistically isn't going to cut it.


http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/_articles/gentle_leader.html

http://dogsintraining.wordpress.com/2011/03/29/not-so-gentle-leader/

Jumping up isn't really a life threatening behaviour though, is it? Does jumping up really require electric shocking your dog? Or stabbing her in the neck with a metal spike? I've used vibration collars for deaf dogs that work well to get their attention, if the shock really isn't that high, and isn't used for pain or a negative reaction, why not just use a vibration collar to get her attention?

As I said, as far as I'm concerned, any trainer that has to use pain to get the behaviour that they want is a poor trainer, that or uneducated. No matter how much you sugar coat it, a prong/e collar is a negative and aversive way of training, there is absolutely nothing good coming from one of those devices. I've heard all of the myths before, but I'll stick with science.

My dog has an extremely high prey drive, she was awful with sheep/cats/rabbits/horses/cows/birds.. Pretty much all livestock! She will tolerate some other dogs after a lot of work. Afraid of men, but being a terrier would lunge/snap/growl when passing in the street initially, the same with anything with wheels. Again, I've never needed to use pain to distract her. I've put the effort in to train her to a high enough level that a noises from my own vocal range will distract her no matter what the distraction, followed by a recall command and a focus command, she can sit and focus for a long time due to practise, and knows "wait" also which will stop her in her tracks no matter what the distraction. And yep, a simple firm NO actually WILL deter her mid chase, followed by a redirecting command. She can now sit/stay in a field full of live stock. I've experienced this first hand. Even aversive trainers that I've worked with will use training discs or pet correcter to distract, but they wouldn't even use stabbing or shocking.

I'm replying on my phone so can't reply with any links to studies, but I've studied dog behaviour with the Cambridge institute for the past 4 years alongside hands on experience with some of the most damaged and aggressive dogs that you could wish to meet. There are hundreds of studies into dog behaviour, and pain based methods may work but they're also damaging your dog, neither does pure positive ignoring all behaviours and never telling your dog to stop! One of my tutors takes in GSD's and Rottweilers and rehabs them, another does the same with bull breeds.. They've never used those collars. As soon as that pain is removed, the behaviour will come back, and if it doesn't, that's because you've terrified your dog so much that they're too scared to move a muscle. But also I do agree that if your dog doesn't know boundaries, then they're going to be a walking disaster!

I'm really not trying to be rude to you, but this was bound to be a very emotive subject and personally I feel very strongly about these matters. If you're so under confident in your techniques in controlling your dog that you feel that you have to use these devices, that's not actually any of my business, but you asked for thoughts and this forum in general promotes humane ways of training our dogs. As Jules mentioned, my dog was also previously trained using negative methods and continulously only bad things with the stimulus, which then in turn creates frustration/anger/aggression due to confliction with what is a natural behaviour for her breed type.. Terriers chase, this needs to be redirected and channeled, not punished! Due to operant conditioning she now associates good things, and will actually sit and look at me when she sees another dog, instead of trying to eat them.

I actually work with behaviour with autistic people, as well as continuing training with dogs on the side. Pain based and restrictive, institutional techniques were used with them for years, and the psychological damage was horrendous. They carried out these behaviours to cope with their environment and they were punished for it; we now used distraction, positive reward and withdrawal in the case of aggression/anxiety or any other severe event and our events have lessened by about 75%. Of course, human and dog behaviour are different, but dogs react to their environment in a similar way as people with sensory perceptual issues do, and across the behaviour board no matter what the specifies, pain based methods are a dud.

Chris nothing you could say would convince me that shock or prong collars are an appropriate training tool

Ledger is headstrong and challenging at times he had 2 years of being scared whether it was who owned him and beat him with the metal clip of his lead, whatever happened for him to have so many broken teeth or his previous homing from dogs trust where they dragged him off the sofa by his collar so he bit them.

I've seen the fear in his eyes when I stood in just that wrong place or moved my arm in the wrong way after I got him he too would lunge at other dogs and was massively fearful and reactive particularly to intact male dogs with male owners.

Three years on he isn't perfect on lead sit and watch me works but there isn't always the time and space for that, where possible I will always step to the side with him especially if I don't know the other dog keep my tone calm and tell him 'eyes forward'. His recall is good but for my own peace of mind he only goes off in certain areas where i have a good view and out of respect for other owners he goes back on lead (you see the concern when they see an off lead staffy) his 'stand' (don't move til I get to you) command is very good and my next plan is to train an 'emergency down' that is easier with collies who work well away from their owners but from agility he is always looking for and more likely to come back towards me

The only difference is if he has a ball in his mouth then he won't even attempt to approach another dog, his recall is 100% and when other dogs approach him he is polite and more often than not will happily play chase with them (otherwise he just walks away from the dog) that ball is like his comfort blanket.

Whilst I can understand you wanting instant results you have as you say a pup who will be naturally pushing boundaries to see what they can get away with. We still struggle with the jumping up sadly it's harder to train other people who encourage it and would have been massively positive to him as a way to get attention in kennels but he is so much better.

Always encouraging when you get a response from others, my dog walker saw us at fly ball last week and commented how focused on me he is and my neighbour who has a 12yr old crossbreed said how good it must be to have a dog that does everything you tell it, believe me he is far from that but good to know how other people see him

Whilst I respect your view Chris, I could never advocate the use of shock or prong collars. Having seen someone use a shock collar, I am appalled at the pain it inflicted and changed my view of that person forever. I'm not saying that you would ever use it in such a dramatic way but my worry is this, because they have a variable shock setting, where is the line drawn ?. The case that I witnessed had seen the setting increased and increased until an effect was achieved.

The effect was very disturbing in that the dog howled in pain and actually saw a negative reaction from the dog. I had a long conversation over a pint in the pub with the person using this device and asked if it had worked at all, he admitted it hadn't. Unfortunately this persons training methods have been lacking on all fronts, positive reward included, so now the dog doesn't have any off lead time at all. Don't get me wrong, the owner loves his dog and wouldn't knowingly mistreat it. He doesn't use the shock collar anymore and the dog has free reign of a very large garden and is walked well on lead.

So whilst I respect your view, I would never use this technique.

Rachel33 wrote:Jumping up isn't really a life threatening behaviour though, is it? Does jumping up really require electric shocking your dog? Or stabbing her in the neck with a metal spike? I've used vibration collars for deaf dogs that work well to get their attention, if the shock really isn't that high, and isn't used for pain or a negative reaction, why not just use a vibration collar to get her attention?

As I said, as far as I'm concerned, any trainer that has to use pain to get the behaviour that they want is a poor trainer, that or uneducated. No matter how much you sugar coat it, a prong/e collar is a negative and aversive way of training, there is absolutely nothing good coming from one of those devices. I've heard all of the myths before, but I'll stick with science.

You say I sugar coat it but all you're doing is exaggerating how I use the tool, although you bring up a great point about vibration collars, from what I've read/heard you can't fine tune most if not all vibration collars the way you can a good quality e-collar which is often more aversive/negative than using the e-collar on low level stimulation for a lot of dogs. The part about prong and e-collars being negative and aversive - ofcourse they are but that doesn't mean they have to cause pain, saying the word "no" is negative using a halti is both negative and aversive, why do you think they work on a lot of dogs?

This is as far as I got, we're obviously not going to see eye to eye and that's fine, that's not the reason I started this topic, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

-Ian- wrote:Whilst I respect your view Chris, I could never advocate the use of shock or prong collars. Having seen someone use a shock collar, I am appalled at the pain it inflicted and changed my view of that person forever. I'm not saying that you would ever use it in such a dramatic way but my worry is this, because they have a variable shock setting, where is the line drawn ?. The case that I witnessed had seen the setting increased and increased until an effect was achieved.

The effect was very disturbing in that the dog howled in pain and actually saw a negative reaction from the dog. I had a long conversation over a pint in the pub with the person using this device and asked if it had worked at all, he admitted it hadn't. Unfortunately this persons training methods have been lacking on all fronts, positive reward included, so now the dog doesn't have any off lead time at all. Don't get me wrong, the owner loves his dog and wouldn't knowingly mistreat it. He doesn't use the shock collar anymore and the dog has free reign of a very large garden and is walked well on lead.

So whilst I respect your view, I would never use this technique.

The first part in bold is a very good question, the way I see it is every dog is different and so is every e-collar so there isn't a straight forward answer, the good quality collars have between 1-100 and 1-127 stimulation settings which allows for really low level training basically what I done was got the dog used to the collar going on and coming off over 2 weeks randomly throughout the days I'd put it on and off varying time but never stimulate with it then after the 2 week period I started by finding the dogs initial working level under next to no distraction (in the garden) which was 12(I can't even feel the stimulation below 17 on my neck) on a Mini Educator Ecollar (Einstein) ET-300TS then I taught her how to turn the stim off by having her on a long line and when she got a bit in front I applied the stim and guided her back with the line turning the stim off as soon as she turned her head to come back. Obviously in a more distracting environment the level of stimulation is higher but the highest I've had to use was in the low/mid 20s while proofing around cat/ rabbit's which again isn't painful it's more like a good tap on the shoulder.

The only time I'd use the collar the way you described is in a life threatening situation(dog running for a road etc) which I'm sure we can both agree the dog getting hit with a car is A LOT worse than the dog being in pain for a few seconds that leaves no lasting damage (unless your dog has heart problems then I wouldn't use a e-collar anyway)

I can also respect your view and that you'd never use them.

You asked for thoughts, we have them.

The thought of prong collars make me feel sick! No idea why anyone would want to put metal inward facing spikes onto their dog they are meant to love. Just putting one on the dog is bad enough but to then attach a lead and pull those spikes into their neck?!! Nasty things!

Sorry but my thoughts on shock and prong collars are certainly not going to be aired here (we do have some younger readers)                  

Rachel33 wrote:You asked for thoughts, we have them.

Yes about the article I posted in my OP, although after re-reading my OP it did sound like I was asking for opinions on prongs/e-collars that wasn't my intention.

I read the article a long time ago, but having worked in rescue for the last 5 years and heard every excuse in the book for giving up a dog, "pure positive" training didn't come up once. In fact the amount of dogs that I've had come into kennels for killing livestock who have been trained aversively around them is unreal. Usually countryside dogs with Neanderthal owners.. As soon as they can escape and be free, and not at risk of being electrocuted they will chase and kill to their hearts desire.. Funny that.

As previously stated, I do agree that purely positive training lacks balance and there of course need to be boundaries and consequences for actions for every being on this earth, how else will they learn? However, I will always use the least aversive measure possible, which for me is verbal redirection and firm commands. I don't even shout at my dog, because I just don't need to! I do use tools such as halti's, long lines, leads, muzzles and harnesses that manage, but they don't inflict pain. If a dog is uncomfortable wearing any of these after desensitising, we don't make them wear it. Some dogs don't mind them, some don't like anything being on their face. If you yank a halti yes it will do damage, but anything in the wrong hands can do damage. As Jules mentioned, the metal part of a lead could do damage in the wrong hands. But e collars and prong collars do damage even in the right hands! I will repeat; nothing positive can come of using these tools. If your dog is going to run out into the road, put them on a lead! If your dog chases livestock, use a long line, train strong obedience commands and manage the places that you walk. Your dog is a terrier who is going to have a natural drive around small animals; manage it! Don't repress it, it only builds frustration.

I will never advocate using shock or prong collars, and that's all I can say. The other people that have commented on this thread, that you have ignored for some reason, have made some very valid points also. I would hate for somebody young and impressionable to stumble upon this thread and think that physical abuse to your dog is a quick fix way to get them to do what you want, without creating a bond or putting in any real effort.

I've grown up with lurchers on a farm full of livestock, my parents used e collars on them years ago to stop them bolting out of the fields to get to the sheep, and even they don't use those collars now that they have learnt and developed their own training methods. They still keep the same breeds, but they have found positive reinforcement, along with clear boundaries and management to be most effective, and kind to their dogs.