Cropped Ears - ok or not?

First topic message reminder :

I just can't get past the ears, cracking looking dogs though.

Moo is getting fat atm and I hate it!

Dave wrote:

ella wrote:I would never crop a dogs ears, BUT if some naturally had ears that looked like these i'd have them i love the look, not the fact it's cutting the ears though.

If that make any sense

I know what you mean there and it does make sense as it is liking the look but not how it is achieved and this isn't any different to someone saying I would like a labrador that looked like a bit of a poodle and "izzy wizzy lets get busy" there you go

If that makes sense

yer thats it i like the look but not the fact it's 'man made'

Caryll wrote:

bigwazza wrote:im going to stick my 2 pence worth again and say again we need to change the view of what we think of if you think apbt sadly that in my head is cropped ears i do in no way condone it and don't like it (or the thought of the act happening)we really need to change the views we have as i guarantee if ear clipping was banned worldwide if we seen a clipped dog in 20years time we would be outraged at the sight

It's strange, but when I think of pitbull I don't think of cropped ears!

What annoys me is that people go on about the fact that fighting dogs had their ears clipped.......have a look at old paintings of fighting dogs in this country - they all have normal ears, just small & 'rose', because the small rose ears were easy to hold back flat against the dog's head & they rarely got too much damage. So it's human vanity that has resulted in cropped ears!

I dont think it was ever a thing done to any extent over here, it seemed to be pretty much an APBT thing over the pond from what I've seen

As some of you may know by now (as I've banged on about them long enough ) I used to have Dobermanns, and they were docked. And I must admit that I do like the look of a Dobe with a docked tail, they just do not look right with a long tail. Sorry, but there it is. BUT, and this is a big BUT, the puppies were always "done" when a day old by the simple expedient of putting a tight elastic band around the tail and after a few days the end of the tail withered and died and dropped off. And after all, this is what farmers routinely do to baby lambs (to prevent horrible things happening in their tails later, which I won't go into ).

The puppies also had their dew claws snipped off around the same time - I'll admit that is more painful, but only temporarily, and saves much trouble with dew claws in later life (Kuchar chews at his, and I have read on this site of accidents happening with dew claws).

However, back to cropped ears - I don't like them. I don't like the look of them, but have you ever FELT cropped ears - when you pull them through your hands, like you do when loving your dog? Cropped ears are surrounded by hard scar tissue and feel eeeugh.

I know it sounds like I'm condoning chopping some bits off dogs and not others and I'm really glad that at least Staffies are chopped about (except for the dew claws ....)

Sorry, my last post should have read "staffies are NOT chopped about" !

new Staffy owner wrote:As some of you may know by now (as I've banged on about them long enough ) I used to have Dobermanns, and they were docked. And I must admit that I do like the look of a Dobe with a docked tail, they just do not look right with a long tail. Sorry, but there it is.

When the docking ban came in over here, I thought the first tails looked odd - dobermans, rottweilers, spaniels etc, etc. But as time has gone on, I've got used to them & now I think it looks really good! I prefer to see a tail on a dog anyway, but to actually see a dobe or a rotty wagging a full tail is a joy to behold!

i think rottie look stupid with tails

Only because you're not used to seeing it.

I wouldn't say that Rotties (or even Dobes) look exactly stupid with tails, just - untidy.

Can't speak for Rotties, but a Dobe CAN wag! The whole backside goes into it - my daughter used to call them "Wigglebums".

We probably WILL get used to them in time, like our forebears got used to the sight of horses with undocked tails, but at the moment, personally speaking, I prefer a docked tail on Dobermanns, so long as it has been done with the humane elastic band method.

new Staffy owner wrote:Can't speak for Rotties, but a Dobe CAN wag! The whole backside goes into it - my daughter used to call them "Wigglebums".

My Tervs used to do the whole wagglebum routine & they both had really gorgeous plums of tails!

new Staffy owner wrote:We probably WILL get used to them in time, like our forebears got used to the sight of horses with undocked tails, but at the moment, personally speaking, I prefer a docked tail on Dobermanns, so long as it has been done with the humane elastic band method.

But a dobe can't legally be docked at all in the UK now - either with an elastic band or by a vet - because they're not classed as 'working' dogs in the same way as spaniels & other gun dogs.

Yes I know Caryll and it's illogical I'll admit but I still prefer "the old look" of Dobes. Actually, I haven't seen a Dobe for years, if I had maybe I'd get used to the sight of them with tails.

We've strayed off the cropped ears subject of this thread, so I do apologise for that.

Caryll wrote:

new Staffy owner wrote:As some of you may know by now (as I've banged on about them long enough ) I used to have Dobermanns, and they were docked. And I must admit that I do like the look of a Dobe with a docked tail, they just do not look right with a long tail. Sorry, but there it is.

When the docking ban came in over here, I thought the first tails looked odd - dobermans, rottweilers, spaniels etc, etc. But as time has gone on, I've got used to them & now I think it looks really good! I prefer to see a tail on a dog anyway, but to actually see a dobe or a rotty wagging a full tail is a joy to behold!

Caryll wrote:Only because you're not used to seeing it.

total agree thats what iv been trying to get across we just need to get used to see dogs looking like that

To be honest, I think it's stupid that people think dogs look stupid for looking how they're meant to look. It's like people who are to used to the media's idea of beauty that only stick-thin women who are photoshopped to look flawless are how they're meant to look. When in reality it's not like that. It only looks stupid because you're not used to it. Just like any qualities you find unattractive to the opposite sex, if that was actually the norm, I guarantee it'd be seen as attractive to most people. People are easily-influenced by the way the world is, but that doesn't make it right. Cutting off tails and ears to make a dog look right to us, it's just pointless.

As I've said, I've never really focused on the ears, I'm more interested in the animal itself .. cropped or not .. that said, I think if done correctly, it suits the APBT .. but hey, thats just MY opinion, I dont expect anyone else to agree with me, and thats fine too

So, Andy, if you were in a country where it's legal to crop, would you have your dog's ears done?

Possibly, I'm not sure, I'd speak to a vet I trusted and see if it can be done with little or no discomfort to the dog at all .. and if that just wasnt possible, then deffo not !!

I love the look, whether i'd get it done TBH i really don't know.

I wouldn't get ANY of my dogs' ears cropped even if I lived in a country where it is allowed. And even - I hope - if I had been accustomed to the look of them on certain breeds.

Not only must it be very painful (like having your ear lobes pierced only more so), but the ears have to be taped up for some time to get them to stand up while they heal and the scar tissue forms.

But most of all, I hate the FEEL of the ears, all hard scar tissue. Just caress your Staff's silky ears and imagine them all hard and knobbly.

amount of scarring depends on how good the vet is, i've felt cropped ears with very minimal scarring.

ella wrote:amount of scarring depends on how good the vet is, i've felt cropped ears with very minimal scarring.

Well yes I suppose it will depend on the vet. The particular dog I was thinking of was a Brazilian import, beautiful dog but his ears felt like corrugated cardboard.

Andy wrote:Possibly, I'm not sure, I'd speak to a vet I trusted and see if it can be done with little or no discomfort to the dog at all .. and if that just wasnt possible, then deffo not !!

Reading about it over the years, and over the last week or so especially, it would appear that no matter how good the vet is, the post operation period is very painful for about a month, even with strong pain relief. There is also the discomfort of not only having the ears taped, but having to change the bandaging daily to prevent infection.

new Staffy owner wrote:

ella wrote:amount of scarring depends on how good the vet is, i've felt cropped ears with very minimal scarring.

Well yes I suppose it will depend on the vet. The particular dog I was thinking of was a Brazilian import, beautiful dog but his ears felt like corrugated cardboard.

Oh i don't doubt you i've seen some awfully done ears with huge amounts of scarring even done by vets.

Absolutely, Caryll. Why put your dog through all that, just for a "look". and Ella, I rest my case.

Thank goodness it will never be allowed here (UK).

This thread has brought home to me how individuals see 'cruelty' differently. To me, chopping bits off a dog unnecessarily is cruelty, but to others it's an 'enhancement'.

It's a strange world.

Caryll wrote:

Andy wrote:Possibly, I'm not sure, I'd speak to a vet I trusted and see if it can be done with little or no discomfort to the dog at all .. and if that just wasnt possible, then deffo not !!

Reading about it over the years, and over the last week or so especially, it would appear that no matter how good the vet is, the post operation period is very painful for about a month, even with strong pain relief. There is also the discomfort of not only having the ears taped, but having to change the bandaging daily to prevent infection.

There ya go then, that being the case .. my hyperthetical answer to your hyperthetical question, would be no

So, this is a hyperthetical

Caryll wrote:This thread has brought home to me how individuals see 'cruelty' differently. To me, chopping bits off a dog unnecessarily is cruelty, but to others it's an 'enhancement'.

It's a strange world.

Well yeah, a lot of people do things to their dogs some of us would consider cruel, and yet they genuinely love their dogs. It's odd, but suppose we all have different limits when it comes to what's OK and what isn't.

That said, I get what you're saying about it being painful. Having parts of you cut off is going to hurt afterwards no matter what. Puts your body through pain and also the stress of healing and everything. So to me, to have that done because you prefer the look to how your dog looks naturally, it's just pointless when you're meant to love your dog for who it is rather than seeking to make it look perfect by your own standards (moreso if it means something painful/stressful).

Dave wrote:

Hayley wrote:I want a doberman in the future and i would like it to have the ears and tail done, but know this is no illegal and i wont get it. But i still want it lol

on the other hand its awully cruel to chop up your dog to make it look good.

Which side of the fence are you on Hayley . I'm on the one that lets them keep the bits that mummy and daddy gave them

Put it this way. If someone gave me a dobby pup that was intact, i woudlnt be taking it to the vet to get chopped up. But if there was a dobby with ears and tail already done, i would consider it. I woudlnt do it myself, but i do like the look.

But tails in working dogs are necessary to prevent injury. People who still use terriers for ratting and rabbiting n stuff cut the tails so that when they are reaching in to pull the dog out they DONT grab the tail and break the dogs back.

ella wrote:I would never crop a dogs ears, BUT if some naturally had ears that looked like these i'd have them i love the look, not the fact it's cutting the ears though.

If that make any sense

i know what you mean. thats how i feel. i like the look but would not do it myself. if a doberman naturally came out with raisedd ears like a GSD and no tail i would be on it like a car bonnet

Hayley wrote:But tails in working dogs are necessary to prevent injury. People who still use terriers for ratting and rabbiting n stuff cut the tails so that when they are reaching in to pull the dog out they DONT grab the tail and break the dogs back.

The vast majority of dogs that are still docked have never seen a days work in their lives & never will! It's a sham! The breeder tells the vet that the pups are going to 'working' homes, the vet docks the tails with a clear concience, and then the breeder can't find working owners so they go to pet homes. The fact is, there was never the intention to sell to working homes in the first place!

Well yeah and thats wrong, and most "breeders" wont sell to working homes, which is why a vet shoudlnt do it. most working homes will be from dogs that are already working and they wont take it to a vet to get docked so thats the vet taking money

just been looking a bit more closely into the subject and now you will find it hard to find a surgeon that will do the procedure as its not always going to get good results and they don't want to be involved in needless procedures that could harm there reputations.
breed organisations that states certain breeds needed to be clipped to be registered have relaxed that rule .
and the puppy after surgery could actually be in for up to 4 months of pain
and its not unknown for puppies to do during or after surgery

bigwazza wrote:just been looking a bit more closely into the subject and now you will find it hard to find a surgeon that will do the procedure as its not always going to get good results and they don't want to be involved in needless procedures that could harm there reputations.
breed organisations that states certain breeds needed to be clipped to be registered have relaxed that rule .
and the puppy after surgery could actually be in for up to 4 months of pain
and its not unknown for puppies to do during or after surgery

down side to the first point is there will be untrained butchers more than happy to do the procedure with household scissors

And that is something that is completely unacceptable

Hayley wrote:And that is something that is completely unacceptable

and saddly not illegal in some places

Hayley wrote:Well yeah and thats wrong, and most "breeders" wont sell to working homes, which is why a vet shoudlnt do it. most working homes will be from dogs that are already working and they wont take it to a vet to get docked so thats the vet taking money

It's now illegal for anyone other than a vet to dock a dog's tail & it must be done by 5 days old.

I found this (about tails, not ears) & thought it might be interesting.....

The exemption for working dogs allows a dog that is likely to perform certain specified types of work to have its tail docked by a veterinary surgeon. The dog will have to be less than 5 days old and the veterinary surgeon will have to certify that he or she has seen specified evidence that the dog is likely to work in specified areas. Puppies being docked must be microchipped, either at the time of docking or when the vet considers they are old enough. The types of dog that are allowed to be docked and the types of evidence needed, is detailed below.

Puppies from certain working dogs may be docked if evidence is provided to the vet that it is likely to be worked in connection with law enforcement, activities of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, emergency rescue, lawful pest control, or the lawful shooting of animals. It is accepted that in a litter, not all puppies docked will be found suitable for work.

The owner of the dog, or person representing the owner must make a signed statement that, the dam of the puppies to be docked is of a type which can be certified as set out below, the date on which the puppies were born and that it is intended that they will be used, or sold, for one of the working purposes set out in the regulations.

The vet must sign a declaration that the requirements of the regulations have been satisfied i.e. that he has been given the necessary declaration by the owner or person representing the owner and has seen the evidence required.

The vet must have a completed statement, signed and dated by the owner of the dog (or by another person whom the veterinary surgeon to whom it is presented reasonably believes to be representing the owner), made in the form set out in the regulations. The vet must see the dam of the dog and a further piece of evidence such as:

a current shotgun or firearm certificate issued to the owner of the dog, or to the agent or employee of the owner most likely to be using the dog for work in connection with the lawful shooting of animals OR

a letter from a gamekeeper, a land occupier (or his agent), a person with shooting rights, a shoot organiser, a club official, a person representing the National Working Terrier Federation, or a person engaged in lawful pest control, stating that the breeder of the dog whose tail is to be docked is known to him and that dogs bred by that breeder have been used (as the case may be) on his land, or in his shoot, or for pest control.

Although the procedure is the same, the list of dogs which can be docked are different between England and Wales. There is a total ban on docking in Scotland.

In England the following can be docked:

1. Hunt point retrieve breeds of any type or combination of types.

2. Spaniels of any type or combination of types.

3. Terriers of any type or combination of types.

In Wales the following can be docked:

1. Spaniels of the following breeds: English Springer Spaniel, Welsh Springer Spaniel and Cocker Spaniel, but not combinations of breeds

2. Terriers of the following breeds: Jack Russell Terrier, Cairn Terrier, Lakeland Terrier, Norfolk Terrier, but not combinations of breeds

3. Hunt point retrievers of the following breeds:

Braque Italian, Brittany, German Long Haired Pointer, German Short Haired Pointer, German Wire Haired Pointer, Hungarian Vizsla, Hungarian Wire Haired Vizsla, Italian Spinone, Spanish Water Dog, Weimaraner, Korthals Griffon, Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer, Large Munsterlander, Small Munsterlander.

It remains the prerogative of a veterinary surgeon as to whether he chooses to dock a dog’s tail or not.

NO I dont think cutting bits off a dog for cosmetic reasons should be done even if done by a vet only for medical reasons is acceptable I think

gem wrote:NO I dont think cutting bits off a dog for cosmetic reasons should be done even if done by a vet only for medical reasons is acceptable I think

Caryll wrote:

gem wrote:NO I dont think cutting bits off a dog for cosmetic reasons should be done even if done by a vet only for medical reasons is acceptable I think

I think the 's have it!

Never seen a cairn terrier docked! That would look odd lol

I've only seen a Cairn Terrier docked. Oh the joys of living in USA. I see people bring their recently ear cropped puppies to puppy play group with the tape still on their ears after surgery. It's so upsetting to see the puppies wince or yelp when their ear gets bumped or pawed during play. How can someone do that to their puppy? Why? Because they want their dog to look "hard?" If you want a * eared dog, get a shepherd, spitz, or Bull Terrier. There is just no reason to chop off a dogs ears (unless it's for medical reason).

I don't know about other countries, but Cairns in England usually have natural tails.

As I said in my post on the other thread before my post was deleted 'cropping dogs ears is an unnecessary evil'!!

I've deleted several posts - no need for pettiness. The people concerned will know which posts have been removed & why. Let's move on!

Caryll wrote:I've deleted several posts - no need for pettiness. The people concerned will know which posts have been removed & why. Let's move on!

Good idea

Kind of back on topic, a few people who met my old Boxer would say how beautiful he is with his full tail (I guess they're used to seeing Boxers with docked tails?), but my god he knew how to whack you across the leg with the constant wagging

ANattyRat wrote:

Caryll wrote:I've deleted several posts - no need for pettiness. The people concerned will know which posts have been removed & why. Let's move on!

Good idea

Kind of back on topic, a few people who met my old Boxer would say how beautiful he is with his full tail (I guess they're used to seeing Boxers with docked tails?), but my god he knew how to whack you across the leg with the constant wagging

20 years ago I lived with a friend and her mother. The mother was a reknown boxer breeder, and bread some great show dogs.. They all had tails docked at a couple of days old, I remeber the first litter after I moved in there and taking the pups to the vets, they did tails and dew claws.. there was no sedation at all, it was horrific.. I'll never forget it.. But back then a boxer with a tail wsn't "proper" and couldn't be shown.. I remeber the reason for this was their tail bones were quite long and they would always break tail bones?? I have no idea if there was any truth to that

Caryll wrote:I've deleted several posts - no need for pettiness. The people concerned will know which posts have been removed & why. Let's move on!

My friend has a boxer with a tail. She planned on breeding her (don't get me started I want to strangle her for the way it's treated) but a few studs refused cause she had a tail. Some people asked if she was a cross breed too. Lol

i agree with Caryll its barbaric and cruel