Looking for a pup?

First topic message reminder :

Hi we are looking at buying a puppy, the breeder we have looked at is kc registered and has 5 generation papers for his dogs/pups, the pups we are looking at buying are £650 pounds is the dog likely to be a good one with regards to looks etc as we would like to show her? i have seen pics of the parents last litter and they are lovely looking dogs 2 of the litter are now show dogs, just needs some advice on looking for/buying a good staffy thanks

We all know inbred happen but breeder should be getting their lines down below 6.7% the % of some dogs i have seen tonight is just sick!! there cant be any excuse for a dog to be 24% inbreed you could expect it from a rare dog not staffie...

Agree.

Id love to know what lexi is for kicks, but i know shes not on champ dogs

That link is useful and i'm imagining does get used alot.

My male Mayjas coefficients is just 0.4% too
When he was mated to my female Sky whos 2.4% the resulting pups were 4.6% Both parents do share a common link and thats they both have dazzling white lad in their pedigrees.
Mayja is a complete out cross so thats why his is low.

Inbreeding too close relatives is wrong, but line breeding with say a stud that may just share a few common links with the planned female is ok in my books.

if you found a female as low has your Mayjas i would love a pup i would even treval down to london to get it

??? don't understand what you mean about valglo line?

lillytom wrote:??? don't understand what you mean about valglo line?

A lot of the Valglo Kennel dogs were highly inbred, and used extensively at stud.

Denise wrote:
Mayja is a complete out cross so thats why his is low.

What's this mean Denise ???

Caryll wrote:

lillytom wrote:??? don't understand what you mean about valglo line?

A lot of the Valglo Kennel dogs were highly inbred, and used extensively at stud.

Please excuse my ignorance as myself and my partner are very new to this - we have researched as best as we could but we aren't too familiar with all the genetic jargon that has been mentioned - in the simplest terms we just want a nice, healthy pedigree Staff as a family dog to grow up with our children. We have looked at some of the pups that have been bred by unverdadero in the past litters ... many are show dogs and some have been exported to Italy and Switzerland to name a few, they seem to have a lot of loyal and experienced followers on their Facebook page too.

The couple that run the kennel seem friendly, legit and happy to answer our questions ... they haven't been at all pushy for deposits etc ... It was our decision to put a deposit on a bitch pup as there has been a lot of interest.

From the responses so far I now feel we may have made a bad choice.

This is basically down to inbreeding in the Valglo lines (close relations matings like Brother / Sister , Father / Daughter etc ) I really don't know anything about the breeder but what does ring a couple of alarm bells with me is a) the inbreeding coefficient and b) the fact that someone like Denise who is our established breeder didn't knoe the kennel

Does close breeding mean a bad pup/adult dog?

Dave wrote:

Denise wrote:
Mayja is a complete out cross so thats why his is low.

What's this mean Denise ???

his mum and dad wasn't family members

Dave i know of Valglo kennels but not heard of unverdadero, but that does'nt mean to say they have not been around for long, a i bet some breeders have never heard of myself.

Valglo are stunning dogs, not to everyone taste but they have done well, maybe they are a bit too line breed for some ppl but they do bred true to type staffords.

Mayja's low % is due to the fact his dams an English bred female, his sires from Australia so his parents are unrelated so making him a scatter bred / out cross bred stafford.

It means that the pups have more chance of having bad skin, bad organs, bad growth and too inbred usually have worse temperaments. Think about it in human terms, you wouldn't want a girl to have her father or grandfathers child.

In the wild dogs don't even inbreed cause naturally it is wrong.

Denise wrote:Dave i know of Valglo kennels but not heard of unverdadero, but that does'nt mean to say they have not been around for long, a i bet some breeders have never heard of myself.

Valglo are stunning dogs, not to everyone taste but they have done well, maybe they are a bit too line breed for some ppl but they do bred true to type staffords.

Mayja's low % is due to the fact his dams an English bred female, his sires from Australia so his parents are unrelated so making him a scatter bred / out cross bred stafford.

Sorry everyone , please let me go down on record for making unfounded comments, I don't want to make statements that arent true and have possibly made some judgements that are not quite correct

We are not getting a pup from unverdadero anymore, as i contacted her today to ask her some questions regarding what we have discussed on here and she was un-helpful and basically told me too look up any questions i had on the internet! she also took a £50 deposit which she wont return to and the pup is only 2 weeks old so its not like we have let her down last min, very dissapointed as we really wanted the pup but these things happen for a reason. i have been in touch with a breeder on champ dogs who has some pups due at the end of sep. thanks for all the info you have all given me.

Hayley wrote:It means that the pups have more chance of having bad skin, bad organs, bad growth and too inbred usually have worse temperaments. Think about it in human terms, you wouldn't want a girl to have her father or grandfathers child.

In the wild dogs don't even inbreed cause naturally it is wrong.

That is not always the case. Now if the pup was from Valglo then i could say hand on heart the its a goodun, as their very experienced breeders and know their lines very well and would not knowingly breed ill pups.

For example semi wild street dogs dont walk round asking in season females if their related in any way, they just mate with who evers in heat at that time, and resulting pups are fine.

It needs to be put across only breeders with years of experience and know their blood lines inside out should attempt line breeding, you need to know if their are any faults etc lurking in the pedigrees, some one whos just started out unless they have an experienced breeder as a mentor is not going to know this so should stear clear.

lillytom wrote:We are not getting a pup from unverdadero anymore, as i contacted her today to ask her some questions regarding what we have discussed on here and she was un-helpful and basically told me too look up any questions i had on the internet! she also took a £50 deposit which she wont return to and the pup is only 2 weeks old so its not like we have let her down last min, very dissapointed as we really wanted the pup but these things happen for a reason. i have been in touch with a breeder on champ dogs who has some pups due at the end of sep. thanks for all the info you have all given me.

Did they state your deposit was non refundable at the time ??

I normally give ppl 7 days cooling off period in which a deposit can and will be returned, after 7 days its non refundable.

lillytom wrote:Does close breeding mean a bad pup/adult dog?

Not necessarily, but it does raise the likelihood of inherited health problems - like inbreeding in humans.

When i was talking about wild dogs i meant real wild, like wolves and african dogs, they will not inbreed (of course some have accidents but their social groups generally don't allow it) not strays. They have a very different social life lol

Denise wrote:

lillytom wrote:We are not getting a pup from unverdadero anymore, as i contacted her today to ask her some questions regarding what we have discussed on here and she was un-helpful and basically told me too look up any questions i had on the internet! she also took a £50 deposit which she wont return to and the pup is only 2 weeks old so its not like we have let her down last min, very dissapointed as we really wanted the pup but these things happen for a reason. i have been in touch with a breeder on champ dogs who has some pups due at the end of sep. thanks for all the info you have all given me.

Did they state your deposit was non refundable at the time ??

I normally give ppl 7 days cooling off period in which a deposit can and will be returned, after 7 days its non refundable.

No, she never mentioned it being non-refundable - to be honest it sounded very sour grapes to me, the irony of it all was that she kept saying she wasn't in it for the money

use this link you really want an pup below 6.7%

you just add the sire or the dam name and it will tell you the %

http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/inbreed/Default.aspx?breed=3080

In wolves its only the alpha pair that mate and produce litters, so this would account why.

Say for example a pride of lions, a rogue male takes over a pride kills the very young from the last male and rears his own with all the females.
Now IF that male is still on the throne at the time of his daughters reaching sexual maturity he'll mate with them too.
Now this may only happen say in every few generations but inbreeding as we know it has taken place, but the resulting pups may grow and have their cubs sired by a new male that takes over so reintroducing fresh blood.

lillytom wrote:
No, she never mentioned it being non-refundable - to be honest it sounded very sour grapes to me, the irony of it all was that she kept saying she wasn't in it for the money

If it was never mentioned that the deposit was non-refundable then she should give it back. However, you may have to persue it through the courts & you might find that cutting your losses is the best way forward.

Or tell her your getting in-touch with trading standards, as no verbal agreement or written receipt was given stating your deposit was non refundable .

i don't mind close line breeding now and then IMO all the time is wrong.... i look at one dogs who was close line breeding nearly every generation and the result said the dog was 25% inbred another litter on champion dog both sire and dam was over 20% inbred you could understand that if the dog was a rare breed but not staffie, I don't think any staffie should be double the avg in staffie.

I looked into Skye's and busters %
Skye was 3.6%
Buster was 22.9%
But if I was to breed them their pups would be 8.2% ( just curious not todo)
So not great but better than busters who was being sold about £900 ( not that I paid for him as he was a rescue)

Denise wrote:

Hayley wrote:It means that the pups have more chance of having bad skin, bad organs, bad growth and too inbred usually have worse temperaments. Think about it in human terms, you wouldn't want a girl to have her father or grandfathers child.

In the wild dogs don't even inbreed cause naturally it is wrong.

That is not always the case. Now if the pup was from Valglo then i could say hand on heart the its a goodun, as their very experienced breeders and know their lines very well and would not knowingly breed ill pups.

For example semi wild street dogs dont walk round asking in season females if their related in any way, they just mate with who evers in heat at that time, and resulting pups are fine.

It needs to be put across only breeders with years of experience and know their blood lines inside out should attempt line breeding, you need to know if their are any faults etc lurking in the pedigrees, some one whos just started out unless they have an experienced breeder as a mentor is not going to know this so should stear clear.

I think thats a great explanation I think the show world encourages breeders to breed better then better sometimes that may not seem to be the right thing to do although I do feel these dogs do a wonderful reprisentation in our breed. Our breed is healthy and health testing is erradicating known diseases in the breed that has to be a positive step forward I cant speak for everyone but it seems that with new research they are stepping up and making changes or should be, wont happen overnight

gem wrote:I think thats a great explanation I think the show world encourages breeders to breed better then better sometimes that may not seem to be the right thing to do although I do feel these dogs do a wonderful reprisentation in our breed. Our breed is healthy and health testing is erradicating known diseases in the breed that has to be a positive step forward I cant speak for everyone but it seems that with new research they are stepping up and making changes or should be, wont happen overnight

if you ask some people off the street that doesn't know much about breeding or hasn't done much research if they was ask if they would buy a kc dog they would say no because of the inbreeding that goes off so they will fill the pocket of back yard breeder instead thinking they going get a health-er dog so some breeders have to take some of blame for the huge amount back yard breeders we have in this county well around the world.

We are now getting a pup from a kc registered breeder off champ dogs he has been very helpful and hasn't asked for deposits etc so looking good

Also thanks for your advice everyone, we got our £50 deposit back after telling her we was going to trading standards.

cool have you done the inbred test on the sire and dams?

Yes i did they came back at a very low 4.5

great

lillytom wrote:We are now getting a pup from a kc registered breeder off champ dogs he has been very helpful and hasn't asked for deposits etc so looking good

Are you going to give us the link so we can have a look at your pup to be

Had three emails this morning from Champdogs; all three are about http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeder/29300

Three litters on the ground! Looks like only one of the parents has been health tested, well, he's hereditary clear for H2 LGA & HC but no eye screening done.

They call themselves caring, but no health tests made on their own dogs. All they mention is the sire of one litter (not their own dog) is clear of L2-HGA & HC. Not good.

[quote="Galadriel"]Had three emails this morning from Champdogs; all three are about http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeder/29300

Three litters on the ground! Looks like only one of the parents has been health tested, well, he's hereditary clear for H2 LGA & HC but no eye screening done. [/qu

Would you say this breeder is bad? we arn't getting our puppy from her now, she was very un helpful and by the sounds of it shes running a puppy farm! Thanks everyone for the info regarding this breeder

Caryll wrote:They call themselves caring, but no health tests made on their own dogs. All they mention is the sire of one litter (not their own dog) is clear of L2-HGA & HC. Not good.

When we contacted her regarding a puppy, she told me the mum was chardonnay and the dad was jj, from the pics on the link above she has stated a different!! very glad we didn't purchase a dog from her now.

[quote="lillytom"]

Galadriel wrote:Had three emails this morning from Champdogs; all three are about http://www.champdogs.co.uk/breeder/29300

Three litters on the ground! Looks like only one of the parents has been health tested, well, he's hereditary clear for H2 LGA & HC but no eye screening done. [/qu

Would you say this breeder is bad? we arn't getting our puppy from her now, she was very un helpful and by the sounds of it shes running a puppy farm! Thanks everyone for the info regarding this breeder

Well I wouldn't buy a pup from them; glad your not and that you got your deposit back.

Who are you looking at now? Have you checked both sire and dam have been health tested?

It's a breeder off the kc reg club and champ dogs, both his dogs have been health checked, he keeps them both as pets so were going to have a look at the parents tomo

lillytom wrote:It's a breeder off the kc reg club and champ dogs, both his dogs have been health checked, he keeps them both as pets so were going to have a look at the parents tomo

That sounds a bit more like it.

Wow, what a long read that was lol...

I've learned a couple of things reading this thread.

I'm sure the original dog would of beef fine, and all these dogs need a loving home, but by the sounds of it, your now dealing with a much better breeder, with perhaps better "ethics"?

Anyway, looking forward to the puppy pics