New member needs advice

Good morning all,

New member here looking for some advice to help us with wonderful dogs.

My wife and I purchased two staffie dogs as 9 week old pups from the same litter who were a wonderful addition to our home. Both are great with kids and other dogs and are very affectionate. They have just reached 6 months old which co-insided with them spending 3 weeks in a very good kennel whilst we were on honeymoon. They sleep in a large cage together in the kitchen and had their cage and toys etc when in the kennel.

They came out of the kennel last weekend and after a good couple of days back in their usual routine with good walks and a large garden to run around in they have started to fight, to the point where we have to keep them seperate 24 hours a day. Individually they are gentle placid dogs and remain good on the lead and around other dogs. When seperate at home they appear to cry for each other. When we try to put them together it becomes instantly tense and within a few minutes the heckles come up and the tails stiffen and both dogs start to square off and snarl.

We have read much on the internet this week and taken advice from a local pet store, who has changed their diet and put them on some tablets which are designed to calm them down. We have spoken to the vet who has agreed to take them in tomorrow to have them both fully steralised as the vet hopes that this will remove any hormones which are leading to the aggressive behavoir to each other. We will try this as the only alternative is to rehome one of the pups which would spoil what was a wonderful partnership of fun and mischief.

Is it a lost cause to have two dogs from the same litter and expect them to grow up well together or is their an alternative to loosing one of them. Does anyone have similar experience or advice, especially regarding the effects of steralisation.

Many thanks,

David

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Hi and welcome to the forum from Rocky and me.

Sorry to read you are starting to have problems with your dogs. I have only ever had one dog at a time so cannot really advise on multiples. I hope you can get them both back to being well behaved dogs as they were before.

Please have a read of the link below about the health issues surrounding dogs being spayed/neutered.

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t12763-long-term-health-risks-and-benefits-associated-with-spay-neuter-in-dogs

Hi and welcome from us and Suki. Sterilization won't neccessarily calm either of them down and siblings can have issues getting along. Are you certain that it isn't simply play. They can be very rough and vocal which can sometimes be mistaked for aggression. Here is a link that will hopefully help.

http://staffy-bull-terrier.co.uk/dogbodylanguage.html

I would keep them seperated if they are unsupervised though.

jstaff wrote:Hi and welcome from us and Suki. Sterilization won't neccessarily calm either of them down and siblings can have issues getting along. Are you certain that it isn't simply play. They can be very rough and vocal which can sometimes be mistaked for aggression. Here is a link that will hopefully help.

http://staffy-bull-terrier.co.uk/dogbodylanguage.html

I would keep them seperated if they are unsupervised though.

re the nuetering and about the rough puppy play as dont forget there only 6 months old and are still boistres and socialising i think a close eye should be kept on them while together and use the time to build up your dog/handler bond so they know if it kicks off you can stop it with a verbul command.

have you asked the kennals if anything happend between them while they were a way from you for the three weeks????as to me that seems to be strange to get problems in there care
maybe you will need to go back to basics and re sdocialise them back together

Hi & welcome. Cogratulations on your wedding.

I suppose you've already been told that getting two from the same litter & the same sex isn't advisable? But you've probably now realised that anyway!

What's their body language when you put them together? What happened the first time they had a squabble? Have you asked the kennels what they were like when they were there?

What do you feed them & when, and what sort of exercise do they get? How long, on or off lead, & how often?

Sorry for so many questions, but it's best to try & get as clear a picture as possible.

They are both very young to be neutered, and there's no guarantee that it will help in any way at all.

Thanks for all of your comments and help. To answer a few;

We simply did not know or were told by the breeder, the vet or the puppy training class that two from the same litter would be an issue. We simply thought it would be nice for them to have company and grow up together. We thought we were doing something in their best interests!

Now when we put them together there is some play gestures, then one will place a paw on the other and there is a tense atmosphere which was not present before. After a couple of minutes the tails and hackles go up then it moves to full snarling and growling, at which point we seperate them. If we are not quick enough they will both fight. No real damage fortunately with the exception of a minor cut on one ear.

They have not really had squabbles before. They would play and at times play quite roughly, but they would always seperate at a word if we thought it was a little rough and then it was straight back to tumbling or toy play.

No reported issues in the kennels. They did share a decent sized space and sleep in the same cage together.

Previously fed wheetabix and water for breakfast at 7am and Bakers dry food around 5pm. We have dropped both in favour of Royal Canin following advice from the pet store. The occassional treat when out walking. No table scraps or any 'non dog items'.

Prior to seperating them they had full run of a decent sized walled garden, with open access to a back porch with a bed and water and the kitchen with their cage and water. They also had a good walk together in a local park each evening (off the lead if no other dogs around) and generally a much longer walk in a country park on the weekend. They have always been good around kids and other dogs. We usually keep them on the lead around other dogs as they can be quite excited and fussy including jumping up which some dogs and owwners are not keen on. They had a good relationship with an adult staffie and also an adult lurcher who they played well with off the lead.

Vet seemed to think that 6 months was ok to be neutered. We appreciate that it may not be a solution but we are trying to keep two great dogs together. If it does come to it I would trather rehome one and let them both grow up to be good dogs than ruin them both.

We are sure it is not simply rough play.

Thank you all for your links and advice, which we will read and gain from. All other thoughts welcome.

Many thanks,

David

Hi & welcome to the forum

Hi and welcome to the forum.

This is a tricky one because as you know now, siblings are not a great idea, even more so if they are of the same sex.

Re the neutering, while it is a personal choice, it is not something I would consider at that age. I know there are many mambers here who have had their dogs done at 6 months and all has turned out fine, but I would definitely advise waiting until they are more mature before neutering.

I would take them both to basics. I would make them work for everything from food to affection. Let them play, but at the FIRST sign of anything kicking off, step in very firmly and separate them for ten minutes then try reintroducing them, doing the same thing if it starts again. Let them know that YOU are in charge and you will NOT tolerate anything like that.

shontelle wrote:Hi and welcome to the forum.

This is a tricky one because as you know now, siblings are not a great idea, even more so if they are of the same sex.

Re the neutering, while it is a personal choice, it is not something I would consider at that age. I know there are many mambers here who have had their dogs done at 6 months and all has turned out fine, but I would definitely advise waiting until they are more mature before neutering.

I would take them both to basics. I would make them work for everything from food to affection. Let them play, but at the FIRST sign of anything kicking off, step in very firmly and separate them for ten minutes then try reintroducing them, doing the same thing if it starts again. Let them know that YOU are in charge and you will NOT tolerate anything like that.

Yes, I agree with this. As soon as you said

DavidG wrote:then one will place a paw on the other and there is a tense atmosphere which was not present before.

my mind thought "dominance". They are trying to work out who's in charge & by the sound of it, neither are backing down - so you will have to do it for them! As soon as you see any kind of dominant behaviour step in, whether it's got niggly or not. Just walk in between them, saying "No, steady" (or something similar) and seperate them. If necessary, keep a collar on them both for the time being, as long as they are supervised. Don't let it get to a squabbling stage. That way, after a few repetitions you should be able to say "No, steady" and they'll stop & calm down.

I'm glad you got them off of the Bakers! It's a terrible food. How long have they been off it, and on Royal Canin?

Hi and welcome.

I cant believe some dumb * breeder allowed you to take 2 litter brothers What an idiot, it was obviously going to end like this.

Sorry to rant abit then, but no good breeder would recommend or even allow two litter brothers to be homed together, its thanks to them your in this situation now.

Personally i think it all stems from them being kenneled, you their ring leader had gone awol in their eyes ... plus their now in a strange place they decided to size each other up for the alpha position, even thou you have returned the apple cart has been distrubed and i dont think its going to be an easy road to get them back together.
It may never happen and you may need to rehome one of them, but the fact they are young is on your side.
Personally i dont agree with desexing a male so young before they have time to mature, but in this case i think its advisable IF you wish to keep them both.
You need to be aware desexing does not always work, but there is a slight chance it might owing to the fact they are young and are not fully mentally mature. Dont expect miracles the day after surgery as it takes time for what ever hormones that were present to subside.

In the mean time keep them separated in the home. Their daily walks can be together but dont take them on your own and dont allow any off lead free running up the park.
All toys are removed too, try not to excite them as thats a known clue for a punch up. And any squaring up or growling from either one is met by an even louder stern/growl tone voice from yourself and the culprit is removed.

Good luck its not going to be easy

hia from me and sasha

Hi and welcome to the forum, im sorry your 2 are not getting along at the moment. I'm unable to help, as i've never had two of the same sex at once. I think the breeder should of advised you to have 1 dog-1 bitch. Im not saying it will never work. Im sure some1 here with experiance of the same will drop in and advice. It could be they were playing. They do play very ruff, and yes, it could of got a bit nasty, due to them both trying to be the dominate. I think neutering may help. I really hope they settle down

kenny d wrote:Hi and welcome to the forum, im sorry your 2 are not getting along at the moment. I'm unable to help, as i've never had two of the same sex at once. I think the breeder should of advised you to have 1 dog-1 bitch. Im not saying it will never work. Im sure some1 here with experiance of the same will drop in and advice. It could be they were playing. They do play very ruff, and yes, it could of got a bit nasty, due to them both trying to be the dominate. I think neutering may help. I really hope they settle down

yes iv been waiting for blaze to pop on as she had a problem with her two boys not the same age but same sex

Hello and welcome to the forum

Hi & welcome to the forum

welcome, i have a few friends who have got two pups from the same litter and as had the same problem you have, one of my friends ended up selling one of the pups, the other stuck with it and now the dogs are older they seem to have settled with each other. i have 4 males that live together none of them have had there bits removed and they get on very well, so i would think about it before you part with your money at the vets...

Dave g you having 4 intact males living together is an exception not a general rule.

bigwazza wrote:

kenny d wrote:Hi and welcome to the forum, im sorry your 2 are not getting along at the moment. I'm unable to help, as i've never had two of the same sex at once. I think the breeder should of advised you to have 1 dog-1 bitch. Im not saying it will never work. Im sure some1 here with experiance of the same will drop in and advice. It could be they were playing. They do play very ruff, and yes, it could of got a bit nasty, due to them both trying to be the dominate. I think neutering may help. I really hope they settle down

yes iv been waiting for blaze to pop on as she had a problem with her two boys not the same age but same sex

Yes, they were ok until recently - I think Ty suddenly decided to have a go at Kaos? It was a one-off though, I think.

Hello and welcome to the forum from Tyson & me. I agree totally with The advice given by Denise. Calling in a professional may also be an option.

Denise wrote:Hi and welcome.

I cant believe some dumb * breeder allowed you to take 2 litter brothers What an idiot, it was obviously going to end like this.

Sorry to rant abit then, but no good breeder would recommend or even allow two litter brothers to be homed together, its thanks to them your in this situation now.

Personally i think it all stems from them being kenneled, you their ring leader had gone awol in their eyes ... plus their now in a strange place they decided to size each other up for the alpha position, even thou you have returned the apple cart has been distrubed and i dont think its going to be an easy road to get them back together.
It may never happen and you may need to rehome one of them, but the fact they are young is on your side.
Personally i dont agree with desexing a male so young before they have time to mature, but in this case i think its advisable IF you wish to keep them both.
You need to be aware desexing does not always work, but there is a slight chance it might owing to the fact they are young and are not fully mentally mature. Dont expect miracles the day after surgery as it takes time for what ever hormones that were present to subside.

In the mean time keep them separated in the home. Their daily walks can be together but dont take them on your own and dont allow any off lead free running up the park.
All toys are removed too, try not to excite them as thats a known clue for a punch up. And any squaring up or growling from either one is met by an even louder stern/growl tone voice from yourself and the culprit is removed.

Good luck its not going to be easy

Thanks Denise,

It is going to be tough. Appreciate your comments.

All the Best,

David

Welcome. I am a great believer in being the asertive pack leader. Watch the body language and read it. When you see one of them goinginto the zone then snap them out of it. Maybe muzzle them while you are doing this? I have never muzzled a dog though I have never needed to. I agree Caryll and they are testing the water!!
Be strong!

Hi welcome.

Unfortunately siblings generally don't get on well when they get older, dogs of the same age can fight more too. This is going to take a lot of work and some people would suggest rehoming one of them cause it might turn out that you will never be able to let your dogs in the same room/area or possibly walk together at all if they really go at each other.

welcome to the forum from me and the kids

Thanks to all for their advice. The neutering went well and both dogs took it very much in their stride. We have ahd a couple of walks on the lead and they have been perfect around other dogs and kids. In fact we had a bunch of toddlers and their parents come over in the park and both dogs were perfect and just rolled over to be fussed.
However last evening they both accidently entered the same room and were at it in a flash. Difficult to seperate and I got a scrape down one cheek in the process.
I am not prepared to take the risk that they may be ok together as I would hate them to injure anyone or each other so it is time to rehome one. They are both great pups and I rightly or wrongly believe it is better to split them up and let them both have a good life as well cared for pets who have so much to offer.
I did contact the breeder for advice or to see if he knew of a home but did not get a response.
Anyone want a pup?

Thanks,

David

Hi sorry it's not going well my boy was in the same situation as you are the breeder let him and his brother to a family that already had a female boxer and a young male staff to cut a long story short the family rehomed all the boys as they couldn't cope
My buster was about 5 months old he now lives quite happily ( most of the time) with my 2 yr old girl
Skye buster and me

Sorry for the delayed welcome, but welcome