Who is to blame?

Hi

I wonder if I can get some quick advice. This morning I was happily on my way home from my morning walk with my dog. Off lead I have him muzzled as he has a tendancy of occasionally getting over excited at small "squeaky" dogs and I don't like to take any chances as there was an occasion in the past when he was just over a year old where he grabbed a dog by the side of the neck and wouldn't let go. The other dog was unharmed thankfully, just a bit shaken up.

I've always been cautious of him around other dogs just because I know you can never trust any dog 100%. Anyway, he was on a lead under conrtrol and we were crossing the road heading home when all of a sudden a small white Westie came flying out of a house, out into the road (luckily no cars were coming as it is can be a busy road at times) and charged towards my dog. I immediately shouted out to the owner "WHOA WHOA WHOA please stop your dog". Anyway, I grabbed my dog by the collar to secure him but the Westie came running up and jumped up at him. He reacted and nipped the dog which then yelped, by which time the owner came racing over. It was over so quickly and it didn't appear that my dog hurt his dog.

We then had a bit an altercation as I was insisting he should have had his dog under control and on a lead on a public highway. Then because he saw I was carrying a muzzle immediately assumed my dog was agressive and started shouting at me saying why wasn't he wearing it. I just reiterated that his dog should not have been off a lead out of control on a public road.

I have never had any cause or concern to muzzle my dog on a lead as he has never shown aggression on a lead before.

I'm now extremely worried about any consequences as I live in a small village and this happened only about a minute from house and I have to walk past this guy's house daily in order to walk my dog. It's a small village and people talk. I don't want him suddenly turning up on my doorstep saying my dog hurt his dog as it's his word against mine at the end of the day, but it was his dog off the lead.

Who would be at fault here as I know in dog law terms this can be a grey area? I go by the rule that if my dog is off the lead and I see another dog approaching I will put my dog on a lead as you don't know how that dog will react. I thought that as my dog was on a lead and this dog wasn't that my dog is under my control.

My friend in the same village had to rehome her dogs because of an unfortunate incident 2 years ago. I can't ever bear the thought of anything happening to my boy or repercussions from this incident

Any advice greatly received - thank all!

Lis

Absolutley not your problem! Your dog was on lead and under control the westie was not. Even if your dog had killed the other dog the police would not press charges as the other dog was not on a lead and therefore not under control and yours was. My Ty can be very funny with other dogs espeacially when he is out with me (he's not so bad with hubby) he's constantly on defensive mode. I only ever let him off lead when we are completley alone in fields, hes on lead at all other times but i never muzzel him. I have also made sure his recall is spot on so if another dog does appear i no i can get him back to me straight away. I think recall is of huge importance to a DA dog. But no in answer to your question the other owner was to blame, you werent in the slightest. I am very honest btw and i WOULD tell u if i thought the situation could of been prevented.

Not your fault at all. Yours was on lead and under control.

No way were you at fault. Your dog was on lead & you responsibly called out for the other owner to control his dog. The westie was 'out of control' in a public area & so the other owner was totally at fault.

If I were you, being that it's a small community, I'd start straight away telling my side of the story before the other guy gets a chance to twist it. Don't run him down, just tell it like you were more concerned about the dog getting out & possibly getting run over! That makes you a concerned citizen!

One thing that I now do everytime me and hubby take Rocky for a walk anywhere is to video him every time another dog approaches. A couple of months ago we had a loose dog approach Rocky and we presume the owner contacted the local dog warden who was waiting at the park for us one day.

After we had explained what happend he could see who was at fault ie. the owner of the loose dog.

When we are out Rocky is on a long line and hubby will usually be walking him this allows me to take my little camcorder with us. When I take Rocky out on my own I only have him on a short lead and avoid certain areas, where I know there will be lots of people and dogs gathering. Rocky is not very good with lots of people crowding around him.

There are some small camcorders on the market that could be clipped to a pocket on your top, it may be an idea to invest is one of these that way you will always have video evidence of how your dog reacts to others. This can always be shown to people who question whos dog is under control.

Have a look at the link to some pocket camcorders the Kodak one is a good price:

http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/pocket-camcorders/347_3815_31483_xx_xx/xx-criteria.html

Sorry Kathy but I think it isn't a good way to be to have to live your life like this , we should have to be proved guilty , not innocent

It's just that I hear so many times your dog did this and your dog did that. If you have it on video you have evidence of what happend straight away. You can also see how your dog reacts to others which can help with training your dog, you can also see if your dog has done any thing wrong and keep a record of his behavioural progress.

Thanks for all your comments so far everyone, I really appreciate the support and advice. It's a relief to know that I am not at fault here and that the owner of the loose dog was at fault.

I'm just still anxious that if and when I next see this guy and I am with my dog that it won't be the end of it and I get aggro about the fact that he will see it that my dog had a go at his dog and wasn't wearing his muzzle!

Also if he suddenly turns up on my doorstep saying his dog had injuries. Because of the altercation I was keen to move on away from the situation so didn't confirm with this guy that his dog was ok. It was over so quickly and my dog did growl and nip this dog, but it was nothing more than any other dog telling another off for getting in his face!

But because I have a "staffie" and he has the "cute defenseless little westie" who will be looked at as the bad one?!?

The video camera idea is good and would work when you are out with a friend or partner, but I mainly walk alone with my dog, so this would be quite difficult especially when incidents occur out of the blue and so quickly, as this morning did, and I have my dog on his lead.

I've considered knocking on his door and speaking to him in a civil manner to try and placate the situation for the future, but not sure that might just reinforce in his eyes that I do consider that my dog is aggressive and I'm trying to get out of any repercussions, but this is not the case at all!

My friend was sued in a big way with her dog incident. People can be really nasty when they want to be. I really dont want to go down that road at all

Thank again

kathytake2 wrote:It's just that I hear so many times your dog did this and your dog did that. If you have it on video you have evidence of what happend straight away. You can also see how your dog reacts to others which can help with training your dog, you can also see if your dog has done any thing wrong and keep a record of his behavioural progress.

I agree

I wouldn't approach him myself, as you say that might reinforce in his mind that you have something to be worried about!

I would spread the word around the community about what happened, but don't try to apportion blame - just say that you were worried about the westie getting run over from being allowed to cross the road on its own. Make sure everybody knows that there was no harm done by either dog. That makes you the good guy!

Agree with others that this is not your problem. That loose dog was not under control so not your problem no matter what. I like Caryll's suggestion.

It's a sad state of affairs when we feel the need to record our dogs on walks in case something happens. Totally appreciate the reasonings behind it, just think the world has gone crazy at times

I agree that you were not at fault. It is not a require my for Your dog to wear a Muzzle, but by having one shows that you are a reaponsible owner who knows your dog and takes necessary precautions. I also know the 'joys' of living in a small, everyone knows everyone, community, so I feel your pain. I hope nothing comes of it, and to a certain extent people can understand that dogs will be dogs!

I'm really lucky, my Rosie is not at all interested in other dogs when she has her ball to fetch and quite often runs round twice as far to avoid other dogs getting in her way! Although this doesn't stop owners of 'puff ball' dogs actually picking their dog up when Rosie is off the lead playing fetch ha ha ha it makes me laugh, it must be because of that attractive lip flapping teeth showing grin she has on her face while running ha ha ha

You were definitely not to blame. Your dog was under control and personally, if another dog gets up in your dogs face, then your dog is totally allowed (in my opinion) to growl and nip and say "Behave!" There's a really good article on this matter: http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/

My pup is really friendly with other dogs but if there's a really boisterous dog that is all up in his face, barking and irritating, then his play bites become more of a snap as he gets irritated. Thankfully, for the most part, the owners of said dogs have either been knowledgable or reasonable enough to understand that my dog wasn't being 'dog aggressive'.

Unfortunately its a sad truth, that people love to deal out blame to Staffies. I get so sad, but used, to people not waiting their dog to socialise with mine because he's a Staffie, even though I have had many dogs (often JRT and other small dogs) that snap and try and bite mine - though for some reason this owners never seem to think their dog is a problem. Sigh.

I wouldn't go up to this guy, but if people ask, I'd explain what happened in a logical, reasoned way (don't get too emotional) and then you just have to hope that people will see what actually happened.

munschk wrote:You were definitely not to blame. Your dog was under control and personally, if another dog gets up in your dogs face, then your dog is totally allowed (in my opinion) to growl and nip and say "Behave!" There's a really good article on this matter: http://flyingdogpress.com/content/view/42/97/

Unfortunately its a sad truth, that people love to deal out blame to Staffies. I get so sad, but used, to people not waiting their dog to socialise with mine because he's a Staffie, even though I have had many dogs (often JRT and other small dogs) that snap and try and bite mine - though for some reason this owners never seem to think their dog is a problem. Sigh.

I wouldn't go up to this guy, but if people ask, I'd explain what happened in a logical, reasoned way (don't get too emotional) and then you just have to hope that people will see what actually happened.

I can't agree with this more and thanks so much to you all for your support, advice and comments. I love this site! It's so nice to speak to those dog owners that totally understand our dogs and how amazing they are! Not the "asbos" of the dog world to be blamed and shamed all the time!

Thanks Caryll and Munschk: I've calmed down a lot today and def won't be approaching this guy!! As you have said, it would just make him think I am trying to cover something up, when all I really want to do is keep the peace! Not admit my dog is guilty coz he so isn't!

I am fairly new to the village so don't know many people at the moment, but acknowledging other dog owners on a daily basis is always the quickest way to get to know fellow dog people. If anything is ever said or said to me I will definitely put the story across emphasising my concern for the other dog and the fact that it ran in the road. I actually have met a couple of lovely local staffy owners and we have lovely chats when we meet on walks. I love the mutual respect we have for our dogs.

My poor boy knew something was up yesterday morning though, he is so sensitive to my mood and if I'm upset bless him. When we got home (after the incident) and after breakfast he just popped himself in his bed and when I looked at him he put his ears back and had a look as if saying "sorry mum, have I done something wrong?" I made extra fuss of him to make sure he knew that he had done NOTHING wrong at all!

Thanks again one and all xxx

Oh that look just melts your heart every time doesn't it. I find a little bit of cheese always goes down well to cheer up a sad dog! X

Glad we could help =)

Just keep meeting the dog owners, I promise, once they meet your delightful dog, they will know the right side of the story.

One thing though, just re-read your original post, just remember that sometimes grabbing/even holding a dog can cause tension and predispose to a fight. The best is to keep the leash slack but ready as any tension in your body/arm can transmit down the leash.

munschk wrote:Glad we could help =)

One thing though, just re-read your original post, just remember that sometimes grabbing/even holding a dog can cause tension and predispose to a fight. The best is to keep the leash slack but ready as any tension in your body/arm can transmit down the leash.

Sorry for the late reply!!

I totally agree with you regarding my tension possibly contributing towards my dog's actions. But I could just see what was gonna happen by the way this little dog was charging towards my dog and I just knew if he did react and get hold of the little yappy thing, we all know who would have come off worse!!!!

That said, I have seen the idiot on more than one occasion now still leaving his house with his dog off a lead and out of control!!!

All I can say is... he has been warned!!!

Thanks again for all your posts xx

Totally agree, not your problem at all!

I've been in this situation so many times when my dog has been on lead to heel, completely under my control and another irresponsible dog owner doesn't have control of his/her dog. Yet my dog ALWAYS ends up the bad guy because of her breed when she's actually never even so much as growled at another dog. She's just highly anxious with people and new dogs and always on the lead or muzzled in new situations as i'd never want her to be in a situation where she would have to react.

Yet, as in your situation people see a staffy and muzzle and assume the worst. Really sorry this has happened to you, I would report it if I was you, not only could the dogs have been hurt, the westie could have caused a serious car accident running out in the road like that. Grrr, makes me so mad!!

Rachel33 wrote:Totally agree, not your problem at all!

I've been in this situation so many times when my dog has been on lead to heel, completely under my control and another irresponsible dog owner doesn't have control of his/her dog. Yet my dog ALWAYS ends up the bad guy because of her breed when she's actually never even so much as growled at another dog. She's just highly anxious with people and new dogs and always on the lead or muzzled in new situations as i'd never want her to be in a situation where she would have to react.

Yet, as in your situation people see a staffy and muzzle and assume the worst. Really sorry this has happened to you, I would report it if I was you, not only could the dogs have been hurt, the westie could have caused a serious car accident running out in the road like that. Grrr, makes me so mad!!

Thanks for your reply Rachel. Yes, it's very sad that our breed of dog has the finger pointed in their direction in any instance which involves other dogs of any other breed.

Don't worry, I have already reported the incident the day it happened to the police. Although they can't and won't do anything, I wanted the incident on record and to show that I'm the responsible dog owner and not the guy who let's his dog run freely and out of control on a public highway!!

I also reported another incident where a guy with two Jack Russels (who were incidently snarling and snapping at my dog) who threatened to "stab" my dog if I didn't get him away from his dogs!! My dog was muzzled at the time and did nothing more serious than to try and ask them to play with him!!

I dont blame you for reporting the incident with the threatening behaviour, I would of done exactly the same.

Some people really,

kathytake2 wrote:I dont blame you for reporting the incident with the threatening behaviour, I would of done exactly the same.

Some people really,

Hi Kathy, that's exactly why I did do just that!! It was threatening behaviour with intent to use an offensive weapon on my dog! I was horrified at the time and just kept thinking what if he had of just stabbed my dog for no apparent reason? You just don't know what some people are like these days, it can be pretty scary sometimes. All we want to do is love and care for our gorgeous dogs, give them a loving and happy home/life and all they want to do for us is to give us their unconditional love and devotion in return

I've literally just read your post about what happened to your poor boy Rocky last week. I so feel your pain, and Rocky's!! I hope he is making a speedy recovery and the trauma of the situ has not affected him too much. I hope your neighbour has learnt his lesson too about letting his dog run freely where you live. Some people have no clue or responsibility for their dogs!!!

I worry constantly now about whether a dog will just run out of nowhere and jump or attack my Dizzy or when we are out walking and am constantly on my guard and look out. He is my baby and I love him so much. Although I know he can well hold his own, but if anything happened to him or he got hurt or injured I would be completely beside myself!

Rocky has a wonderful forever home with you and don't ever forget that. My Dizzy was a rescue too and I just know I have given him a happy home, wonderful life and loving family, and a mum who loves him dearly. Remember, you can never beat the love, devotion and affection of a gorgeous staffie!

Totally agree with all, you had your dog under control, he didnt, end of!
Its as been said, because we all have a staffie. Shame on them really, cos as dog owners they know nothing about dogs, so there does that not tell you something. You hold your head up high, why, because you both have done nothing wrong. My Pixee from the blue cross does not take well to grey hair strangers, I have to make sure she is on lead when they are about. She does not like other dogs much when taken by suprise, so any time she has off lead, is when I know theres no other dogs about. Her recall is getting better each day. And we live in a village too. People know her, and are always trying to make friends with her. Always say hello and hold your head high.

Me too, I have to agree you were completely in the right and the other owner has to take full responsibility for his dogs actions.
I too live in a village and my Blu has got a slight reputation as he has now grabbed and held 2 other dogs in the village. The first time we were walking through the fields and I did not see the other dog (a black lab) which was running free and as Blu ran up to it with his tail wagging in friendly greeting mode the owner grabbed it and put it on its lead and started screaming. This caused the lab to bite my Blu on the shoulder puncturing his skin so he grabbed it by the scruff of the neck and just held it. He was not growling, barking or trying to shake the other dog just holding it but he would not let go, all the time this woman is screaming which was not helping matters at all. I eventually got him to let go and fortunately no harm was done to her dog, no skin breaks nothing.
Trouble was she then went telling anyone who would listen that my dog was dangerous. He isn't but he is a staffie.
Then to make matters worse and this is my fault about 3 weeks later we were walking past the local pub, me teaching him to walk at heel without a lead when he was spotted and as he is so handsome someone called him over and he does not need much encouragement if he thinks a petting is coming his way. Trouble was there was another dog under a table again not with any lead in the beer garden that came out growling at him so he grabbed that one as well.
Again no growling, barking or shaking just holding it by the scruff of the neck but again would not let go straight away.
That was more worrying as I was surrounded by 4 men who had been drinking threatening to kill my dog, and not helped by a woman who ran out of the pub to shout and swear at me telling me she was going to have him destroyed as he was a dangerous animal.
Again no injury was caused to the other dog, or to mine and I managed to get away with no further incident.
I now only walk him through the village on his lead and take extra care when out in the fields.
He is generally well behaved and up until these 2 incidents he had played on the beach and in the fields with a variety of different breeds with no problems.
However, because of this I no longer allow him to play with other dogs and always clip him up when I see other dogs coming. This of course does nothing to help his socialising skills, but does give me peace of mind.
On a plus note, as I walk the dog at set times other owners have started taking their dogs earlier/later than us so we rarely see any other dogs on our walk.
Everyone that has taken the time to get to know me and Blu, or the OH and Blu know he is a friendly dog and not some aggressive out of control animal, when talking to other owners he just sits beside me while I stand talking, he is interested in the other dogs but does not try to pull towards them or show signs of aggression to them.
Unfortunately some people will still turn and go the other way when they see us coming, but I see that as there problem not ours.

So keep your dog and keep walking him, as you or him have done nothing wrong, and also, you have shown you are the responsible owner by your actions at the time and also by seeking advice on how to deal with this situation.

moffman wrote:Me too, I have to agree you were completely in the right and the other owner has to take full responsibility for his dogs actions.

I too live in a village and my Blu has got a slight reputation as he has now grabbed and held 2 other dogs in the village. Again no growling, barking or shaking just holding it by the scruff of the neck but again would not let go straight away.

Again no injury was caused to the other dog, or to mine and I managed to get away with no further incident.
I now only walk him through the village on his lead and take extra care when out in the fields.

He is generally well behaved and up until these 2 incidents he had played on the beach and in the fields with a variety of different breeds with no problems.

So keep your dog and keep walking him, as you or him have done nothing wrong, and also, you have shown you are the responsible owner by your actions at the time and also by seeking advice on how to deal with this situation.

Thanks for your post and I so feel for what happened with you and Blu. My Dizzy has done exactly the same as Blu in the past and grabbed hold of a couple of dogs by the neck and not let go. Like you say, there is no growling, barking or shaking, just that fixed hold. But it is a very scary situ to be in when it happens!

Because I know his strength and power I am always vigilant when it comes to him and other dogs. Like Blu he plays happily with lots of different dogs of all breeds and sizes. But occasionally there'll be a dog he knows he can dominate and if they squeak or make any kind of submissive body language he takes full advantage or gets over excited and goes steaming in to chase the other dog, but not in a very friendly way. I call it his school bully routine, haha! During the rare occasions this has happened he gets put back straight on a lead and I check him for his non acceptable behaviour!!

He does wear a muzzle whilst playing with other dogs now, but only because of what has happened with two dogs in the past. I just don't want to run the risk of him possibily hurting/injuring another dog during play, whether he meant it or not! A staffy's jaws are extremely strong and as a woman I would struggle to release him if this happened when I was out walking alone with him.

As for the Westie that came flying at him that day, which is what my post was about, I know in my heart that if he had of got hold of it, that it was never the fault of my dog but totally the fault of the irresponsible owner of the Westie who also put his dog in danger by letting it run freely into the middle of the road!!

As someone else has said to me on this forum, if a stranger came running up to us and jumped on us, we would not exactly take it too well and tell them off in return, which in theory that is exactly what he did that day!

Staffy lover wrote:Totally agree with all, you had your dog under control, he didnt, end of!
Its as been said, because we all have a staffie. Shame on them really, cos as dog owners they know nothing about dogs, so there does that not tell you something. You hold your head up high, why, because you both have done nothing wrong. My Pixee from the blue cross does not take well to grey hair strangers, I have to make sure she is on lead when they are about. She does not like other dogs much when taken by suprise, so any time she has off lead, is when I know theres no other dogs about. Her recall is getting better each day. And we live in a village too. People know her, and are always trying to make friends with her. Always say hello and hold your head high.

Thank you very much for your post. As you say, there are too many people out there that have no idea about Staffies, only listen to all the bad press they hear about them. I've never had such a loving and loyal dog in my life until owning a Staffy. His cuddles are the best and they are nothing but big softies underneath all that brawn and muscle

Keep at it with the recall. My Dizzy took some time to master that one when I first rescued him and if he saw another dog he was off regardless of what I said. But he has got better and better and now if he is too far ahead or I am calling him too me, I only have to call his name in a low calm tone, or whistle once and he stops in his tracks and looks to me or comes running to my side