Leads

Gee asked about the picture of the dog lead that I posted.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/36417148@N00/6813126006/

This is delicate ground.
Dog leads or any tool that is used for dog training or control are often the subject of heated debate and I hope I don't stir up an argument here.
I'm not going to be anti about such tools as prong collars, pinch collars and so on, except to say that I don't think that they are necessary or effective.
The lead I use is a non fixed soft rope lead, as you can see from the picture.
It's cheap, it's very light and comfortable for the dog to wear and most importantly, It's secure,.
Any dog, and particularly a staffie with its thick bull neck, can back out of a fixed collar unless it's done up too tightly to be comfortable, which is not a good thing to do to the dog, and an escape can have tragic consequences. That's a clincher for me, my first duty to my dog is to keep her safe.
There are other advantages.
I see the primary use of the lead as a tool to communicate with the dog. A physical link as good as a telephone. If you have to use the lead to physically restrain the dog, except in extremis, then your relationship with your dog needs more work. Your dog should trust you and follow you.
Consider how it's possible for a feeble human to lead and control half a ton or more of horse.
If you tried leading a horse the way I see some people 'leading' a dog, by yelling, pulling, chasing, getting frustrated and angry. I'd pay to watch that. I reckon it would be hugely entertaining.
You wouldn't attempt to lead a horse by brute force and you don't lead a horse by by a collar just in front of its shoulders. You lead a horse by a headstall or bridle and you don't do it with strength, you do it with calm intention. That means by knowing what you want and expecting, (very important that word) expecting the horse to follow your lead.
A halti would answer for all of the above and was designed to function much as a halter does for horses but it has the disadvantage, for me, that the dog's mouth is restricted, especially if the dog is pulling back.
A dog is a dog is a dog and a dog's only means of defence is it's mouth.
Dogs know when their mouth is restricted and it affects their confidence. This can lead them towards nervous aggression and sometimes means that other dogs, sensing weakness, are more likely to respond badly.
A confident, steady, sociable, well-mannered dog is a safer dog.
I trust my dog not to attack another dog even if the other dog is aggressive to her. I've seen her deal with mild aggression often enough to trust her. Often enough to know that she can cope,
But I won't put her in a position where she might get bitten by a truly aggressive dog without being able to defend herself.
I use the lead in two 'modes'.
For normal walking, now that Rosie is pretty good on the lead, I drop it over her head as a loose loop. It doesn't tighten up as easily as a choke chain but it doesn't slacken off into a necklace either, the way that a choke-chain does. That suits me. I've had a choke chain drop off of a dogs head as it stopped to sniff something.
Not good.
If I want to attract her attention, I can do it with a tiny twitch of the lead because there's no slack to take up.
Most importantly, I hold the lead loosely with a relaxed hand and arm.
To tell the truth, I've spent so much time teaching myself to hold the lead without any tension in my arm, that I find myself walking along holding the lead between finger and thumb or just looped over one finger. Not very sensible. When I catch myself doing that, I pass my hand through the loop and put my hand in my pocket.

For situations where I need finer control over the dog or for when the dog and I are learning, I move the lead up to the top of the neck to just behind the ears. The small tag that you see halfway along the lead can be slid along to keep the lead from going slack around the neck.
It mustn't be tight around the neck. I tighten it up just enough to keep it in place. Quite often it slips down, but that's not a problem, it's useful. If it slips, I stop, take a few seconds t readjust it, make a fuss of the dog and then carry on.
In this position I have control over the dog's head, just as a headstall enables you to control a horse's head, and where the head goes, the body, and more importantly the attention,follows. With the lead in this position I can control a dog with the absolute minimum of force. Much less force than if the collar is down the dog's neck so that he can use his shoulders to pull. And I don't have to shout or pull back, which will always make the dog pull harder. All I have to do is pull low and sideways, firmly and gently, to turn him. Once the dog can't face what he's pulling towards he has to face something else, and that's me.
Then I can ask him to relax and pay attention to me.

A few important points.
Never pull on the lead. Pulling back will only frustrate the dog and increase the pulling.
If the dog pulls, I hold the lead firmly and redirect the dog. The dog can pull until he he gets fed up with it.
I can wait, and I can keep redirecting him until he gets the idea.

Never, ever yank or jerk at a lead that's around a dogs neck. How would you like it? Any correction or guidance with the lead must be made with soft hands and the strength of the correction must get gentler and gentler as the dog leans to respond more easily.

Tension on the lead from the handler should be short and to the point. As soon as the dog responds, the tension must go, that's like saying 'Yes! You got it!, well done!' to the dog. but you must be as quick with the relaxation as you are with the correction or the message is lost. Stay with tension on the lead for a second too long and instead of giving a correction you are punishing the dog for misbehaving and that is a human concept.

Always wait for the dog to understand what you want. For that to happen, both you and the dog need to be calm and you need to know exactly what you want.
I find that all I ever want from my dog, in that sense, is simple.
Relax and follow me.
They like simple.

I don't punish dogs.
They don't do it amongst themselves and they don't understand it.
All I can do is show them, over and over, what I want them to do and what is not acceptable. They are simple creatures but if they are taught in a simple way they learn very quickly.
Dogs can tell when you're happy or sad, angry or relaxed, tired or ready for a game. They are very attuned to us and they always want to please.
When you correct them, if you can become attuned to your dog, you can see that they know full well that you are displeased with them. Not angry, never ever angry or frustrated, just displeased with their behaviour.
And when they get it right, when you get it right, you get pleased with them and believe me, they know that completely too and it's all the reward that they ever want.

To forestall any accusations of harshness or cruelty, I've posted a video to youtube to show what I mean about corrections with the lead. They are to get her attention, nothing more, and gentle pressure on the lead (you can see that I'm holding the lead very lightly) will move her, not pull her, to the position that you want
I've left the audio there to show how quiet it all is.
You can see the lead in the two positions that I mentioned and will notice that the Rosie's demeanour doesn't change. She's submissive to what I want and calm but she never looks cowed or afraid.
At one point you'll see her lick her lips. They do that when they're unsure, confused.
I'm not surprised.
This excercise was something that we'd never done before.
It wasn't easy for Rosie because home is 25 metres one way and open fields 10 metres the other way. She thought that she was going out for a walk. Instead, I had her walking in circles and stopping and starting for no apparent reason.
At no time did I deliberately give her any warning that I was going to start or stop.
This is what I mean when I say that it's vital that your dog follows you and that the physical position of the dog is not particularly important. It's the dog's mind that must follow you willingly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWzvNFl5sP0&feature=youtu.be

It's basically a slip lead, which is very similar in function to a check chain. Slightly less harsh, I suppose, although it doesn't loosen as readily as a check chain.

BUT I don't agree that it's safe. What if you need to hold your dog still? You can't hold him still safely on a slip lead the way you can a collar. It's also very easy for a dog to get out of a slip lead, and frankly it's not legal in the UK to use one on its own. In the UK you need a properly fitting collar withan identification tag securely attached.

A simple flat collar, properly fitted and with a good training lead attached is far superior. And a halti, used properly, doesn't restrict the dog's mouth in any way at all - it turns the head away from whatever is distracting it.

Interesting, I only have to use a collar and lead, Moo is off unless we're on road. Used one of those once (found one and it was in mums boot and I forgot her lead one day!) gotta say I didn't like handling her wearing it, but each to there own

The Control of Dogs Order 1930 (as amended) requires that every dog in a public place must wear a collar with the owner's name and address on it. The exemptions are when the dog is being used for sporting purposes, driving or tending livestock, destruction of 'vermin' or is one of a pack of hounds.

Rosie normally wears a legal collar at all times. She's not wearing it in the video because it makes it easier to see the lead.
I don't agree that a fixed collar is more secure than the lead shown. I think the opposite is true.
Unless a fixed collar is fitted so tightly around the dog's neck that it is uncomfortable for the dog, then the dog will be able to back out of it. That's happened to me, more than once, and I've seen it happen many times to others. Like a choke chain, this lead will tighten if the dog tries to back out of it. The difference, for the dog, is that it loosens as soon as the pulling stops. A tight fixed collar is always tight.

we use a harness but also make marley wear a collar with all info on it, the lead is attached to his harness so we don't have to have his collar tight(plenty of room around it) should the lead or harness fail then he's got his micro chip id and name phone number etc on display should he be found

Unless a fixed collar is fitted so tightly around the dog's neck that it is uncomfortable for the dog, then the dog will be able to back out of it.

You must be buying some cheap collars then. If this is consistently happening to you then I suggest a lurcher collar, its designed for dogs with heads thinner then their necks. My dog is secure and comfortable in his leather collars, I can fit two fingers between his neck and the collar and its impossible for him to back out of it as his head circumference is greater then his neck circumference like almost all Staffords. These studded collars of his have saved him from terrible injuries, twice he has been seriously attacked and the attacker was unable to get a grip around his throat because of the collar. If your dog was attacked-God forbid-she would have no protection. And its not use saying 'Oh well I would never let him be in that situation.' Both times with me both me and my dog were completely minding our own business and an aggressive dog came flying out from nowhere.
Clearly you've never used a halti before because they don't restrict the dogs bite.
You should not be using a slip lead on a Stafford. Even in your wonderful video I can see your dog leaning and tugging on the lead. Its dangerous for a dog with the pain threshold of a Stafford to wear a thin, rope lead. She's not going to let you know that her neck is burning from the rope and if she got excited about something and went for it, could throttle herself in a matter of seconds. Not only that but slip leads are designed for quick release (trust me I've seen them in their proper use-lamping) and she could easily get loose. Staffords are much better off in thick collars that spread the pressure around the neck. Its common sense.

Some very interesting points raised. Personally I dont much like flat collars as I dont like how tight it needs to be on Tysons neck to avoid him slipping it. I have only ever used a half check on him and a Halti in the early days. The training school we are at also recommends either slip leed as pictured or half checks. I suppose it is all about what you are used to.
I have tended to use a lot of the methods described by Oclasticon and they worked for us.

If I put one of these around Troy's neck, it would be tight as soon as we left the porch due to him pulling.

What make's it superior in the sense of teaching the dog not to pull? I've seen many a dog pulling while simultaneously choking themselves to death and I am sure Troy would do the same.

Is that part of the idea, that they just dislike the sensation of being choked and stop pulling?

I used one for my collie x as he didn't pull but both mine now wear harnesses and they can pull but 9/10 they walk lovely
A staff we know pulls like a steam train on his collar and every couple of mins he stops to cough he's 3 and has been the same since he was a pup

Is that part of the idea, that they just dislike the sensation of being choked and stop pulling?

That's pretty much the idea behind them, like a choke chain, but with most Staffords with a high pain threshold they'll continue to pull and choking be damned. My dog, if he wants to pull, will pull. Doesn't matter if he's wearing a choke, a collar, a harness or a clown costume. Using my voice and body to stop him pulling is far more effective then whatever bit of leather wear he's got on.
Another reason I prefer to walk him, to heel, off-lead.

I'm sorry Shakespearesdog, to disagree, but you are wrong on several points

You wrote this..
<<I can see your dog leaning and tugging on the lead. Its dangerous for a dog with the pain threshold of a Stafford to wear a thin, rope lead>>

(a)If you look at the video again you can see that I'm only holding the lead with finger and thumb or looped over one finger. The dog is not, at any time, pulling or tugging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWzvNFl5sP0&feature=youtu.be

(b) A staffie feels pain just as much as any dog. It's a dangerous and uncaring assumption to think that your dog can 'take it' more than another.

You wrote this..
<<Not only that but slip leads are designed for quick release (trust me I've seen them in their proper use-lamping) and she could easily get loose.>>

The lead I was using is nothing like the leads that are used for lamping or coursing or racing.
Leads used for this purpose have a wide leather collar, so that the dog can strain against it before release and the collar has a slip trigger near the handle, which opens the collar instantly.
In this way several dogs can be released by one handler at the same moment.
(Trust me, I've used them.)

Here's an example .

http://www.muluki.com/quick-release-slip-leads.html

You wrote this
<< with the dog pulling on the lead; a real puller won't be at all bothered if you just stop, he'll just lean into the collar & try to keep going or wait for you to start again! That's why I feel that the best method of teaching a dog to walk with you is the turn around & walk in the other direction method every time the dog pulls ahead. At least then he's having to use his concentration on following you.>>

And you wrote this

<< My dog, if he wants to pull, will pull. Doesn't matter if he's wearing a choke, a collar, a harness or a clown costume. Using my voice and body to stop him pulling is far more effective then whatever bit of leather wear he's got on. >>

Well, this spinning method that you advocate obviously doesn't work for you.
Perhaps you should try a different technique?

You wrote this, referring to the type of lead that I showed in the video.
<<That's pretty much the idea behind them, like a choke chain, but with most Staffords with a high pain threshold they'll continue to pull and choking be damned.>>

No, they're not like a choke chain
. They don't close up to put pressure on the neck as easily as a choke chain because they don't slip as easily and they can be adjusted so that they don't slide open.

I'll make a bet with you.

I'll have your dog walking properly, not pulling, on your lead, and I'll do it right in front of your eyes, in under an hour.
It's not the lead.

Oclasticon wrote: I don't agree that a fixed collar is more secure than the lead shown. I think the opposite is true.
Unless a fixed collar is fitted so tightly around the dog's neck that it is uncomfortable for the dog, then the dog will be able to back out of it. That's happened to me, more than once, and I've seen it happen many times to others. Like a choke chain, this lead will tighten if the dog tries to back out of it. The difference, for the dog, is that it loosens as soon as the pulling stops. A tight fixed collar is always tight.

I'm sorry, but I have to say that I think you are quite wrong. I have trained dogs for about 40 years & have used check chains, slip leads & flat collars. As far as I'm concerned a check chain or slip lead are only useful in a training situation & even then only by someone who has the right knowledge of how to use them. Both the check & slip are dangerous if used wrongly, and both are actually illegal to be used on their own in a public place.

A fixed collar does not have to be kept as tight as you say to be safe. A close fitting 1.5" or 2" collar will not slip over a dog's head in normal situations. Yes, a dog may be able to get out of one, but I've seen far more dogs slip a check/slip than a flat! A contemporary example is Crufts today. A GSD bitch, used to being shown on a slip decided she wanted out. She suddenly pulled her head backwards, slipped out of the loose slip lead & was gone! She leaped the chairs surrounding the ring & had a high old time dodging everybody for about 5 minutes! Put that into a public (on road) situation & you have a disaster!

And by the way, a slip lead will not always loosen immediately pressure is taken off. A rope slip will often 'catch' on itself & stay tight. I've seen it happen many times over the years.

In that case, Caryll, I hope it will be the only point on which we have to agree to differ.

How does this lead really help over a normal collar setup to stop a dog from pulling?

I understand it needs minor force in order to correct the dog and unless choking really deters a dog from pulling, what's the difference?

I find your opinions very arrogant and pompous Oclasticon and I think you need to learn to express yourself better then lecturing everyone with long winded arguments. You have competely taken everything I have said the wrong way and misquoted me multiple times and I find that very offensive.

I'll have your dog walking properly, not pulling, on your lead, and I'll do it right in front of your eyes, in under an hour.
It's not the lead.

My dog DOES walk properly. He DOESN'T pull. I am talking about situations when a dog sees a fox or gets spooked by something and strains to get to it or jumps in fright, perfectly normal terrier behaviour, he is after all a dog not a machine. I don't use a 'spinning method' I have no idea what you mean by this. If my dog pulls I tell him to 'Walk nicely please' and he immediately falls back just as he will respond to 'wait' at roadsides. I too can hold my lead with one finger. Slip leads are like a choke chain, however much you want to delude yourself. I know a staffy feels pain as much as any dog, that's obvious, but staffords are bred to have 'stiff upper lips'. THAT'S why its dangerous to use chokes/slips/prongs etc on them BECAUSE THEY WON'T TELL YOU WHEN THEY'RE IN PAIN UNLIKE OTHER BREEDS.
Don't you dare condescend to me, I'm not stupid.

I'll make a bet with you.

I'll have your dog walking properly, not pulling, on your lead, and I'll do it right in front of your eyes, in under an hour.
It's not the lead.

Clearly you think your some sort of wunderkind but that above statement is just plain mocking me and rather rude. Don't you dare insinuate my dog has any sort of problem whether it be walking on the lead, behaving in the park or anywhere, I raised him properly from eight weeks old and he is the best behaved, kindest, most laid back little dog I've ever met and I'm very proud of him.

If your dog does not pull then good, I have 2x staffies 1x pulls 1x doesn't.

I've tried various leads/collars in the past.
I have tried the slip lead that you mentioned & can say all that happened was when my dog pulled the lead did not release & stayed tight various times!
My preference is a decent flat leather collar with a decent leather lead. The other week my collar & lead set from AEcollars arrived & I find it much easy to control my dog, as he is a puller. He's not a constant puller but a jerk puller (walks fine/lose lead then sprints forward causing a snap, not good when using a slip lead or check collar) I've taken him to various trainers/behaviorist & he's improved but he still does it.

Halti head collars - tried them & do not like them, my staffy pulled away & got his muzzle out of it. I much prefer the K9 Brindle to the Halti, but was advised not to get it as he does not constantly pull, which is what these are designed for.

Staffies do have a higher than normal pain threshold, to say that all dogs have the same is abused! This is part of the temperament write up for Staffies found at this site http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/staffordshirebullterrier.htm - 'Owners need to protect these dogs from injuring themselves. Totally fearless and curious, they're liable to jump off of a deck or walk through broken glass'.

i must admit i bought one of these for lottie for her pulling buyt all she did was gasp and choke herself and give herself a sore throat it was usless so we are back to the old training lead that fastens onto her collar. tried a halti she managed to get that off before we got to the end of the drive but have used them before on our GSD and all it does is pull the skin on their face back when they pull it doesnt stop it either. training is the way to go for behaviour and we will stick at it till she gets the message which actualy she is ok these days she pulls sometimes but not all the time any more

Gee wrote:How does this lead really help over a normal collar setup to stop a dog from pulling?

I understand it needs minor force in order to correct the dog and unless choking really deters a dog from pulling, what's the difference?

Without it being used properly it won't stop your dog pulling. It has to be put on correctly (yes, there's a right & wrong way) and you dog will have to walk on one side of you all the time or the lead will not loosen when it slackens and your dog will choke.

If you are going to use the 'check' method of training then a check chain is better & safer than a slip lead. However, it must be used correctly or it is no use at all! Also, not all dogs respond well to a check chain or slip lead - staffs are notorious for being 'intimidated' by a check chain & it will make them very miserable.

This may be of interest to you...
https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t3292-check-chains-how-to-use-them?highlight=check+chain

Hmm.

I wouldn't mind a lead that fastens the way this one does right at the top of the next.

I use a standard lead and collar but the collar sits low so I don't have as much control over Troy.

Had a nightmare with him today pulling and whining. Wonder how long before I give in and get some sort of pulling device or choke chain!

I don't want to though, I think they just mask the real problem but saying that, Cesar uses them!!

Cesar uses many things - including his feet and fists. But that's another matter.

If you are going to use a check chain (not a choke chain - if they are used properly they don't choke), then make sure that you are fully aware of how to use it properly, and don't use it for anything other than short periods of training.

https://staffy-bull-terrier.niceboard.com/t3292-check-chains-how-to-use-them?highlight=check+chain

Gee, there are two ways to control a dog. Either physically or mentally.
Any lead or harness will control a dog physically simply because we are stronger than they are, but that is not a comfortable way for you or your dog.
Much better that you show your dog what you want and he does it willingly.
It's not a master slave relationship, It's a partnership.

The big advantage, mentally, that we have over a dog is that we can out-think them and we can plan. They don't plan, they react.
They also learn, but not in the human way or we could just explain what we want verbally.

They don't use and they can't understand speech.

They can be trained to react to particular sounds, such as 'sit' but to them it's just a particular sound that will bring a conditioned response.

This is a ritual that you can plan and repeat. And you will have to, day after day at first because it will take as long as it takes, but it will get quicker and easier until it becomes so normal for Troy that it will take no time at all.
You said, in an earlier post, that you could get Troy to wait where you had placed him by being patient, quiet and confident that he would obey.
If you've been practising that, use the same patient, quiet and confident approach.
Be silent, be focused be confident and be relaxed.
Remember that to a dog, noise represents excitement. They don't bark or whine when they are relaxed.
Your silence sends a very powerful message to the dog.
He will copy you, that's what dogs do, they are a mirror.
If you want to know about a dog, study the owner.
If you want to find out about a dog owner, look at their dog.
If you want to know why your dog is behaving in a particular way, look at yourself.

Taking a dog for a walk starts inside your home.

If you can't control the dog inside your home, you will never control him outside, with all the added distractions.

Don't set a time limit for this.

Before you pick up the lead, get yourself into a calm, patient state. Make sure that you're not rushed.
Get the lead, ignore any excitement from Troy and sit yourself down on a chair or a sofa.
That will help you relax and stay still.
If Troy tries to hurry you up by getting excited, whining, nudging you or anything like that, ignore him, don't make eye contact, just block him firmly from invading your personal space.

If I'm sitting, and a dog is trying to invade my space when I don't want him to, I block him using my hand with my fingers and thumbs in a cup shape, generally against his chest.
Definitely not to hit or push and never ever with anger, impatience or aggression. Just to block firmly, as an arms-length barrier.
I demand respect for my personal space, that's all.

Don't let his excitement make you hurry up.
Wait.
If you let him control you in any way, you are not in control, he is, and you must be in control of every part of the walk.

Wait.

Wait until he gives up and is waiting for your next move.
Wait until his level of excitement is zero, nil, not a bit.

He will give up. and each time you repeat this he will get the message quicker and quicker.

As always, the message is: calm down, relax and I'll give you what you want.

Once he's calmly waiting for your next move, and while still sitting down yourself, put the lead on.
If he gets excited, get even calmer yourself. Become a rock.
Once you see him waiting calmly, stand up.

Now you have him on the lead, you have a direct physical link to him, so you can control him physically as well as mentally, but he can also sense, through the lead, how tense you are or how relaxed you are.

If you are impatient, frustrated, angry, how can you hope to get your dog to calm down and follow you?
Be calm yourself and show that to the dog.

Have a picture in your mind of what you want, which is you and Troy, standing together.
Keep it in the front of your mind.

Move him into formation with you, left or right, whichever side you choose and if he moves out of that place, gently but firmly, move him back. Again and again and again until he gets it.

If he pulls, never pull back. Pull sideways, turn him.
Use the lead, your hand, your legs but never hard, always gently and with patience.
Guide him rather than force him.

Don't take a single step towards the door until you get what you want.

Every move you make, to the door, through the door, to the path outside, in the wider world, has to be the same.
From you, this will demand time and far more self control than you thought that you had.
You owe your dog that.

The object of the exercise is not to control Troy with the lead, but to show him the behaviour you want.
If you practice this consistently over time, you will eventually be able to drop the lead at any point and Troy will not move.
The lead doesn't matter.

Troy will make mistakes, again and again, but you must never depart from a kind, loving, firm approach.
Give him time to understand what you want and if it takes an hour to get to the front door the first time, so be it.
You're laying foundations here, showing Troy what you want, establishing a pattern of behaviour, and that needs endless patience at first but it pays dividends.

Try this before you think of using any tool such as a choke, and if you feel that you have to use such a tool, talk to a reputable professional before you do.

I've had my Rosie for about 18 months and she's pretty good both on and off lead. A nice happy friendly sociable dog, but I still follow the same ritual every single time I put on her lead.
When we go out for a walk, she's walking with me and I'm walking with her.

If you look at the last bit of the video that I posted here, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWzvNFl5sP0 you will see that after three or four repetitions, she's worked out that I'm going to stop again at the same point, so she stops with me and when I turn round she turns with me without any guidance. She's so in tune by this stage, that when I move my hip as if to turn, and then don't turn, she looks up at me as if to say 'What are you messing about at'

I use a harness and my dog doesnt pull. She couldnt pull in a harness so as a result learned to walk normally. I have never once used a slip lead or a choke chain on her.

Staffs definitely have a higher pain threshold, i know collies and labradors that yelp when they have a choke or slip lead on but i have never met a staffie that has yelped at anything!