Blue puppies.

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Blue puppies.

Post by brophski on Fri Feb 17 2012, 10:59


So today I start the search for my pup. I quite like the blue coated dogs, but I'm curious with the blue eyes is this just a puppy thing do they change colour? Also quite a few of the puppies, don't laugh, are quite pink?! is just because the fur is still forming?

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Andy on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:04

No unfortunately the lovely blue eye's dont last Sad .. they gradually turn to a range of colours from very pail creamy colour to brown ... just depends what the parents eye colour is (useually the mom I've found)

Not sure what you mean about the "pink" thing ?
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:08

Take care if you're specifically going for a blue dog. Many blues are being bred purely for their colour rather than the health of the pups. Make sure that the parents have been health checked for all the relevent genetic disorders.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:12

also to guarantee a blue that stays blue, one of the parents should be black


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by brophski on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:12

Yeah around the paws, mouth and underneath this is a few patches of pink! They seem quite young pups. I've had a look and one parent is blue and the other is a light tan colour. There asking for £375! no papers but mum and dad can be seen. Didn't know about the genetic disorders, thats quite bad. I assume the only way I'd know about that is if there tested?
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by brophski on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:13

I thought if I had both parents blue I would be safe. Can you end up with another colour entirely as it grows up?
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:17

yes, most of the blue pups who have got both parents blue will end up another colour a browny brindle just like my dog billy


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by brophski on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:25

Ah ok, that I never knew. It seems the ones I want are £650 because of their famous family lol. I might have to keep searching.
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Andy on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:31

Blue is a dilute of black ... so as said, when blue to blue is bred, the dilute goes further! (and is usually a money making excercise to be honest) ... most of Max's ped is black, but dad was blue brindle, and thats how he ended up.

If you specifically want a full blue, look for blue/black matings Wink
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:34

there is a chance a of alot of skin problems and other thing if both parents are blue, the best blue are from parents that aren't blue but they are rare,

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by brophski on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:34

Cheers for that guys, nearly forgot girls too! I'll keep you posted..
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Gazagem on Fri Feb 17 2012, 11:48

Both of mine are from both blue parents although they have white in them i think it depends on the breeding but as already said to get a good blue you have to look around
Ive been lucky with both their skin is good apart from an irritation skye got from a collar but giving them a good diet helps
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 17 2012, 12:55

brophski wrote:I've had a look and one parent is blue and the other is a light tan colour. There asking for £375! no papers but mum and dad can be seen. Didn't know about the genetic disorders, thats quite bad. I assume the only way I'd know about that is if there tested?

If they're not registered then I doubt that any health tests have been carried out & I'd avoid them. Just my opinion, tbh.

brophski wrote:I thought if I had both parents blue I would be safe. Can you end up with another colour entirely as it grows up?

It won't be another colour entirely, but the blue could end up 'washed out' or a fawny-blue.

Gazagem wrote:Both of mine are from both blue parents although they have white in them i think it depends on the breeding but as already said to get a good blue you have to look around

It isn't so much the breeding, as pure luck, I'm afraid. It has been proven that blue to blue matings can produce several health problems associated with the colour. A decent breeder, who has the welfar4e of the breed at heart, will not breed for colour alone, and will not breed a blue to a blue.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by IckleMini on Fri Feb 17 2012, 21:01

[/quote] It isn't so much the breeding, as pure luck, I'm afraid. It has been proven that blue to blue matings can produce several health problems associated with the colour. A decent breeder, who has the welfar4e of the breed at heart, will not breed for colour alone, and will not breed a blue to a blue.[/quote]

I've seen this mentioned several times now, about blue to blue matings producing health problems but where is the actual proof of this? I seem to remember Steve was going to write an article about this a few months ago and I was waiting for it with interest seeing as my boy is blue. As far as I can see his colour has not affected his health in any way (although he is from fully health tested parents so this could be the reason).

I think the main problem with blues is people are now breeding purely for the colour and not using health tested / kc registered dogs. However, this is a problem that affects the breed as a whole, it's not just isolated to blue animals. Unfortunately whilst people continue to buy from BYB with no thought to the welfare of the pups / parents, this will continue to be an issue for the breed.
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Fri Feb 17 2012, 21:20

cayll found proof of health issue that may pop if you breed 2 blue dog together but there wasn't enough to do a wrote up of it.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Fri Feb 17 2012, 21:31

What types of problems are caused by breeding for color?

The most common health problems associated with blue coated dogs are skin diseases--ranging from hot spots to allopecia (baldness) to mange. While most of these conditions are treatable, they can be stubborn to resolve and the cumulative cost can be expensive.

According to this article on the genetics of color found in The Encyclopedia of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the cells that create pigmentation interact closely with the neurological and immune systems. The article suggests that this may explain why dogs with recessive coloration seem more susceptible to nervous conditions and immune disorders. Consider, for example, the high incidences of deafness, low vision and temperament issues that are associated with white, merle and harlequin dogs.

A number of breeders state prominently on their websites that blue staffords are known to be more susceptible to bacterial, viral and fungal infections and they will not guarantee their blue staffords pups or those with blue parents against skin disorders.


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by IckleMini on Fri Feb 17 2012, 21:52

According to Wikipedia (so maybe it should be taken with a pinch of salt Smile ) the blue colouring in the Staffy was introduced when the now extinct Blue Paul Terrier was introduced into the breeding programme in the 19th century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Paul_Terrier

I can understand how the blue colour is a recessive form of black, but how does this then affect dogs that are naturally always blue such as the Weimaraner? Are they more prone to skin conditions as a result? Why don't they get progressively lighter as they are bred? It's all a bit confusing!
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Fri Feb 17 2012, 21:54

blue dog come from black or black brindle dogs nothing to do with Blue Paul Terrier, Weimaraner are not blue they are grey creamie colour.



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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Fri Feb 17 2012, 21:56


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by IckleMini on Fri Feb 17 2012, 22:03

But something has to have introduced the blue gene into the gene pool as such?
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Fri Feb 17 2012, 22:29

no you introduced the blue gene it's a freak of nature it's pop ups in black or black brindle hair dogs

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Fri Feb 17 2012, 23:33

IckleMini wrote:But something has to have introduced the blue gene into the gene pool as such?

No, it's a dilution of black - something that happens naturally, but it's not desirable to breed specifically for it. It's a mutation, if you like.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Debbie on Sat Feb 18 2012, 10:14

When you mate two black brindles you can get a blue puppy, its a dilute of the black brindle gene, caused by lack of pigmentation. I for one would have been mortified if one had
turned up in one of our litters, the pup would have been spayed or neutered so couldn't be bred from. I wouldn't want blue puppies advertised with our breeding in the pedigree, as I have seen with voodoo.
50% of the litters registered last year were blue, specifically bred for the colour and have been charged an absolute fortune for, it used to be a 'rare' colour but not anymore, I think the price is now coming down now because of this. Can't say if the skin and immune disorders are specific to blues or its just because there are a lot more of them now, so its showing up more. Other colours do get them too.

You can find out if the parents have been health tested for L2-HGA and HC you just need to go on the Kennel Club website and check the health test results, just put the sire and dams registered name in and it will tell you if they are clear, carrier or affected. or genetically clear thats a dog born from two clear parents, It will also tell you if they have been eye tested for PHPV although all puppies should be screened at 6 weeks.
Stay away from back yard breeders, make sure you see the puppys with mum and it has been brought up in a clean enviroment, wormed at 2, 6 and 8 weeks as they get the worms through mums milk and ask a lot of questions about socialisation etc, they should be willing to answer them all, don't just take the puppy with one hand and hand the money over with the other, this isn't a reputable breeder. They should have as many questions for you as well and I have always done a home check for ours, so don't be offended if they want to do this.

All that said good luck finding your puppy Big Grin

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Andy on Sat Feb 18 2012, 12:11

I had this debate a while ago as some may remember ( Tongues ) ... and I have to say I still havent really seen enough hard evidence to prove the case that there are skin disorder's more dominant in blues, or that blues have any more skin probs than any other colour dont tell anyone .. thats all I'm saying Laughing

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Sat Feb 18 2012, 12:23

devil i can feel deja vu, breeding two blue it nearly as bad has breeding 2 white together Laughing me i wouldn't pay anything for a pup that had 2 blue parents because there it more of a chance then other colours you going have problems except whites.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Andy on Sat Feb 18 2012, 12:41

Wink Big Grin
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Sat Feb 18 2012, 12:44

byb breeding soley for the blue color created a huge problem for APBT's in America. the blues are prone to temperment issues as well as other health problems. Staffies are not APBT's, but the fact is byb who breed for color only disregard health to do this. i don't think all blues are at higher risk, just the one's bred for color only.


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 19 2012, 01:51

Andy wrote:I had this debate a while ago as some may remember ( Tongues ) ... and I have to say I still havent really seen enough hard evidence to prove the case that there are skin disorder's more dominant in blues, or that blues have any more skin probs than any other colour :-$ .. thats all I'm saying Laughing

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Have a look in this week's Dog World - there's a bit in it about blues from a well known staff breeder.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Rob Jarvis on Sun Feb 19 2012, 19:01

check the parents make sure they have papers and the DNA test.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Sun Feb 19 2012, 19:22

Love Struck

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by georgiegem on Sun Feb 19 2012, 20:28

Steve wrote: devil i can feel deja vu, breeding two blue it nearly as bad has breeding 2 white together Laughing me i wouldn't pay anything for a pup that had 2 blue parents because there it more of a chance then other colours you going have problems except whites.

Are whites really bad then?!??!
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Sun Feb 19 2012, 20:32

depend who you get the white pup from but breeding 2 white dog together is a really bad idea

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Rob Jarvis on Sun Feb 19 2012, 20:54

SKYE is a full colour with no white markings just like her dad 'BO', he has exceptional blood lines which include Bo's father 'MISTER BLOO' his gran father 'JOLSONS BLUE BOY' and his great gran father CH VANORIC VOO DOO.

Here he is looking so proud:

BO father of SKYE



This is 'Dolcie' the mother of the litter, she is 3 years old and has a number of champions on the pedigree which include,
'CH THE MALASER MAULER'
'CH ROGUE SAGA'
'CH BLACK TUSKER'
CH CONSTONES YER MAN'



SKYE:


All loving family pets with great temperament.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Sun Feb 19 2012, 20:58

IMO that bad breeding Sad when breeding for a blue you should always have a black or black brindle parent

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Rob Jarvis on Sun Feb 19 2012, 21:02

OUCH!

I hope I don't run into problems Straight Face

I tried to do everything right, got the pupy through the Kennel Club, made sure all papers correct, wormed, met the puppy's parents made sure they had the DNA test etc etc.


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Rob Jarvis on Sun Feb 19 2012, 21:02

I'm a little worried now Straight Face

I tried to make sure everything was fine, Kennal Club registered, both dogs DNA tested, 5 generation pedigree, checked her parents... etc etc, I hope I don't run into problems, had her first vet visit last week and all was 100% healthy.
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by georgiegem on Sun Feb 19 2012, 21:45

Had absolutely no idea about the potential weakness in blue staffies, as i actually thought it was a strong genetic colour (you learn something new everyday).

In regards to white being undesirable, perhaps thats why Heston was in the Rescue centre then? It is not my intention to breed from him and still love him regardless of his colour (or lack of)!

Unfortunately there was another Staffy next to Heston's kennel, she was all white & deaf. Just checked the NAWT Somerset website and she is still there, poor girl http://www.nawt.org.uk/somerset/animal_show.asp?id=4254


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Sun Feb 19 2012, 21:52

Rob Jarvis wrote:I'm a little worried now Straight Face

I tried to make sure everything was fine, Kennal Club registered, both dogs DNA tested, 5 generation pedigree, checked her parents... etc etc, I hope I don't run into problems, had her first vet visit last week and all was 100% healthy.

not all blue are unhealthy but when you breed 2 blue together you increase the risk of problems

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Andy on Mon Feb 20 2012, 09:48

Rob Jarvis wrote:I'm a little worried now Straight Face

I tried to make sure everything was fine, Kennal Club registered, both dogs DNA tested, 5 generation pedigree, checked her parents... etc etc, I hope I don't run into problems, had her first vet visit last week and all was 100% healthy.

I wouldnt worry mate Wink , things like this can be blown outa proportion, any dog that is bred for colour alone, with no real regard for breed standards by BYB's are obviously not gonna be very good example's, and as a result prone to ailments of all sorts.

Max is a fine example of the breed (as far as I'm concerned), has a good background, fully health clear parents, very good Pedigree, and has very little blue in his background ... but he still ended up a washed out blue brindle (like his dad) which is what made me go for him TBH, (the whole package that is, not just colour) Wink I love the look his dad has, and luckily Max has got his dads build and colour ... with absolutly no problems what so ever Big Grin .... there are quite a few blues on here alone, and I dont remember seeing a single one yet that has a problem that is a result of their colour thinking

Just enjoy your beautifull little girl, and dont worry Wink
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Mon Feb 20 2012, 09:56

i to have a total healthy blue .
but some blues iv seen you can see there a problem waiting to happen(not on the forum but out and about)some are so baddly breed that hard to see the staffie in them ie hight and muscle mass

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Bruno311210 on Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:36

brophski wrote:I thought if I had both parents blue I would be safe. Can you end up with another colour entirely as it grows up?

when we got bruno at 7 weeks, he was all blue then i think when he got to about 16 weeks, he got some brindle coming through, the brindle isn't really noticeable to me unless i look hard or the sun is on him Smile Bruno's mum was blue with a tiny bit of brindle on her head and his dad was blue with no other colour in him and i think changing colour can go back to generations kinda thing.


We've had bruno a year now from 7 weeks and had no health problems other being sick or diahorrea cos he ate something that he should of, silly boy, but i think it doesn't really matter about the colour as long the dog is healthy. I was a bit upset when the brindle came out but i think that is just part of his character now and wouldn't want him any other way, he's my world Love Struck


Last edited by Bruno311210 on Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:39; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Jackieb on Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:37

I feel very strongly about this subject !

Poor quality blues ( as in pigment issues such as white or yellow claws unless on white patches of hair on feet, light or blue eyes, grey nose)from BYB, unregistered bred purely for color is not right.

U cannot say all blues are the same, they aren't. Reputable breeders, health tested, DNA tested and pairings picked specifically for traits is not to make a quick buck.

I spent a long time trying to find the right one, after falling in love with a cute blue and White puppy I was told it had papers, was registered, full pedigree etc I arranged to go see it only to find out when I rang again the price had been increased and they weren't registered or pedigree.

Thankfully I found a good breeder Smile

I think anyone needs to do their homework, and if u have, and u know and understand what u have bought then u can't go far wrong.

Also Blue is a recognised color, so I really do fail to see the issue with well bread blues.

That's my 2 pennies worth

Xx

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:42

What types of problems are caused by breeding for color?

The most common health problems associated with blue coated dogs are skin diseases--ranging from hot spots to allopecia (baldness) to mange. While most of these conditions are treatable, they can be stubborn to resolve and the cumulative cost can be expensive.

According to this article on the genetics of color found in The Encyclopedia of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the cells that create pigmentation interact closely with the neurological and immune systems. The article suggests that this may explain why dogs with recessive coloration seem more susceptible to nervous conditions and immune disorders. Consider, for example, the high incidences of deafness, low vision and temperament issues that are associated with white, merle and harlequin dogs.

A number of breeders state prominently on their websites that blue staffords are known to be more susceptible to bacterial, viral and fungal infections and they will not guarantee their blue staffords pups or those with blue parents against skin disorders.


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:46

nothing wrong with blues the only problem is when you bred the 2 blue together a good breeder wont breed 2 together one of the parent will be black or black brindle.


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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Jackieb on Mon Feb 20 2012, 17:52

Again u are generalising Blues.

There are low quality blue with pigment issues and good quality blues with no pigment issues whatsoever.

Breed 2 staffys with pigment issues like all the BYBs do and yea u are breeding a more dilute color cause what u started with had faults in the first place.



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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Mon Feb 20 2012, 18:20

good quality blues = are with black/black brindle parents or even better 2 black/black brindle parents

low quality blue = with 2 blue parents

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Jackieb on Mon Feb 20 2012, 18:56

define what u belive is low quality.

IF a carefully bred blue staffy [with blue parents] meets ALL Kennel Club breed standards, how can it be classed 'low quality' ?

for example - my staffy [from blue parents] is pure pedigree carrying many CH in her 5 yr pedigree, she fits the breed standard... yet you would classify her as low quality ?

I dont get how u can tar all blues with the same brush, makes not sence whatsoever.
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Steve on Mon Feb 20 2012, 19:01

when breeding 2 blue dog breed read the infor below & dont matter if the 2 dog are in the standard you incrase the rich of health problem......

What types of problems are caused by breeding for color?

The most common health problems associated with blue coated dogs are skin diseases--ranging from hot spots to allopecia (baldness) to mange. While most of these conditions are treatable, they can be stubborn to resolve and the cumulative cost can be expensive.

According to this article on the genetics of color found in The Encyclopedia of the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, the cells that create pigmentation interact closely with the neurological and immune systems. The article suggests that this may explain why dogs with recessive coloration seem more susceptible to nervous conditions and immune disorders. Consider, for example, the high incidences of deafness, low vision and temperament issues that are associated with white, merle and harlequin dogs.

A number of breeders state prominently on their websites that blue staffords are known to be more susceptible to bacterial, viral and fungal infections and they will not guarantee their blue staffords pups or those with blue parents against skin disorders.

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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Rob Jarvis on Mon Feb 20 2012, 19:23

Will keep an eye on her skin as i would with any puppy, I checked the pedigree generation and found no faults and all had champions in the family, I'll do my utmost to give her the best start in life regarding her diet too. l-o-v-e
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Re: Blue puppies.

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 21 2012, 11:09

Jackieb wrote:define what u belive is low quality.

IF a carefully bred blue staffy [with blue parents] meets ALL Kennel Club breed standards, how can it be classed 'low quality' ?

for example - my staffy [from blue parents] is pure pedigree carrying many CH in her 5 yr pedigree, she fits the breed standard... yet you would classify her as low quality ?

I dont get how u can tar all blues with the same brush, makes not sence whatsoever.

You have a gorgeous dog and u should be very proud of her Love Struck But unfortunatley she doesnt fit the standard as the standard calls for a black nose and dark brown eyes and u very rarely find a blue with the carrect pigmenation as its not just the colour of the coat thats a diluted black its everything. What steve is saying is by breeding to black brindle parents with the blue gene with the correct pigmentation it gives a higher chance of better pigmentation in any blue pups that may crop up Smile

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Re: Blue puppies.

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